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Torres doubtful

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[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36882.msg977682#msg977682 date=1257245178]
Vlad, that's like saying someone who wanders around the village dribbling and trying to get a ball to plop into a cup is now being proven a political sage because he's been shouting 'Education, monkey, gnah!' for thirty years as modern democracy struggles to find its Jeffersonian dynamic. Don't indulge a simplistic and smugly dogmatic ranter. Otherwise most of redcafe deserve plaudits, too.
[/quote]

It's gone round in full circle.
When things were looking a little more rosy, Rage was tolerated and people liked having a bit of sport with him, at his expense of course, as their argument looked much more credible than his.
Now things have turned around and Benitez should shoulder some of the blame it is easier to push the ignore button and pretend it's not there. Before anyone points out the ignore button is a new phenomena , I know, but it would still have been the same.

regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36882.msg977681#msg977681 date=1257244526]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977621#msg977621 date=1257237977]
Lol@rage being ignored by 7 users now.
Tee Hee.
[/quote]

He may be on a crusade that is a bit one dimensional Andy, but I suspect that those using the ignore button just don't like the fact that the basis of his argument is becoming more and more credible.
Thank fuck society and politics don't have an ignore button.


regards
[/quote]I feel in a bit of a unique position here to be honest Vlad, in that everyone knows i am anti-Rafa and have been for years.
The position i have stated over the last few days however is unlikely to change given the peculiar and trying set of circumstances the man finds himself in.
He took second place in the league right? Now you and I were amongst those saying that he should have won it. In November last year we were saying as draw after draw played out, that there and then Rafa was costing us the title. I still believe that. I believe that if he had gone out to win those games we would have won the league last year. We may have had 4 losses instead of 2, but we would have a few less draws to boot.
He fucked up and at the time while he was fucking up i wanted him gone. There was a bunch of reasons for that, including poor spending, poor substitutions, poor squad/team selections, and mostly because he was virtually out of contract, we had a reasonably fit squad and a.n.other manager could have come in and with a more attacking outlook won us that league title (credit here to United who went on a blistering run and WON the league).
I argued long that his treatment of Keane was a damning indictment of the man himself and his refusal to select keane was hampering our bid. I really didnt and still dont like Rafa personally. I think he is a bully, a coniver, a liar and an excuse maker (a lot like Winter i suppose) but. HE TOOK US TO SECOND PLACE. And on the back of that was given a 4 year deal. Regardless of wether or not anyone agrees with it he was also given certain agreements in that deal, and those agreements have not been met. He is the one now being hamstrung by a board that have lied (or at least misled) to him.
The time to get rid if we were going to was last November when his dogmatic treatment of keane and his refusal to stamp home our advantage was costing us the league. Not 12 months later when he has taken a much earned second place in the league, been given a 4 year deal (that will cost us up to 20m to get him out of) and most importantly a season in which he has shown from the beginning his intentions to go out and attack and try to win the title.
You and I both said he couldnt or wouldnt change his ways but he did Vlad, he has totally changed his ways, we are probably the highest scoring team in world football in this calender year. And unlike previous years he hasnt started pragmatically and then built up to a climactic finale, he has gone at it from game one, he wants to go out and win the league, thats so clear to me, we are a totally attacking side. But he's been derailed by miserable luck (of which he hasnt really moaned at all yet another change) and the boards refusal to release the Xabi Alonso and Alvaro Arbeloa funds for anything other than a 1m Centre back. We needed a player of quality in the attacking third, and we didnt get it. Which was ok if we didnt get injuries, which we did. Which was okay if Babel stepped up, which he hasnt...So yeah its been tough.

Finishing 2nd last year and not winning it was Rafa's fault, but he did finish 2nd to the best team in the country who went and won 14 games on the bounce from December to March, and thats what it took to beat us, neat perfection (and no injuries to their best 2 attacking players). And second in the league should give you a season to better it. BUuut you can only better it if you are given the opportunity and the fortune to do so. Rafa is beset by bad luck at present, and paying him 20m to fuck off isnt going to change it.

Im not going off on the bad supporter route, because i just dont believe in it, one mans meat and all that, but supporting the club now is the best that we the fans can do, i think its important that we all remember what it is we do best and that IS be the best most supportive fans in the world. Im convinced we have the tools to do really well this year, and im convinced we have a manager intent on proving it, we just need some fortune and a board willing to support him in January. Although im not to foolish to think that given our run of luck at present that may already be too late to salvage this season.

Double regards with a cherry on top.
 
I'm flattered by the quality and length of the reply Andy.
You are dead right about our respective positions last year, I don't think I am wrong in saying we had our doubts in seasons before that.
I do think there is a lot of speculation in what you say about arrangememnts with the owners, but I will ignore that for the sake of the discussion.
My position is this. I accept it is not all Benitez doing, but I think a very big chunk of it is and I just want people to accept that is the case and stop sticing their heads in the sand.
I know you rate Aqualani very highly and am sure you are right in that, but Benitez took a massive gamble on that, and it is , as we watch, blowing up in his face, we needed someone to hit the ground running in August. As has been said we have "virtually no one" up front when Torres is missing, he had months to sort that out when Keane went. The squad is like tissue paper, he has let deadwood go and replaced it with shite.
He had players like Crouch, Keane and Bellamy in his grasp and worked them for his own means.
Fucking hell what we wouldn't give for just one of them now.
According to Winter assuming he got another job "getting rid" would not cost more than £5m, I am very uncomfortable with the idea, but I am even less comfortable with the very real prospect of finishing outside the top four.
Of course I want him to succeed and take no pleasure in this sort of discussion, but as I said a few years ago, I won't get fooled again.


regards
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36882.msg977585#msg977585 date=1257217184]
Fuck, awful. So much of our first team is absolutely decimated.

Oh, and note to the "supporters". You should now change your position from "why did he take Torres off" and the wonderful denial of various injuries, to "He caused these injuries due to his selfish desire to win games".
[/quote]

Haha both funny and true!!
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=36882.msg977713#msg977713 date=1257248670]
Well said Vlad.
[/quote]

Thank fuck someone agrees with me

regards
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36882.msg977682#msg977682 date=1257245178]
Vlad, that's like saying someone who wanders around the village dribbling and trying to get a ball to plop into a cup is now being proven a political sage because he's been shouting 'Education, monkey, gnah!' for thirty years as modern democracy struggles to find its Jeffersonian dynamic. Don't indulge a simplistic and smugly dogmatic ranter. Otherwise most of redcafe deserve plaudits, too.
[/quote]

and yet again a cunt that has me on ignore wants to talk about me
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36882.msg977716#msg977716 date=1257248854]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=36882.msg977713#msg977713 date=1257248670]
Well said Vlad.
[/quote]

Thank fuck someone agrees with me

regards
[/quote]

I have no problem agreeing with you, I just somehow wish it wasnt true!!
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36882.msg977712#msg977712 date=1257248604]
I'm flattered by the quality and length of the reply Andy.
You are dead right about our respective positions last year, I don't think I am wrong in saying we had our doubts in seasons before that.
I do think there is a lot of speculation in what you say about arrangememnts with the owners, but I will ignore that for the sake of the discussion.
My position is this. I accept it is not all Benitez doing, but I think a very big chunk of it is and I just want people to accept that is the case and stop sticing their heads in the sand.
I know you rate Aqualani very highly and am sure you are right in that, but Benitez took a massive gamble on that, and it is , as we watch, blowing up in his face, we needed someone to hit the ground running in August. As has been said we have "virtually no one" up front when Torres is missing, he had months to sort that out when Keane went. The squad is like tissue paper, he has let deadwood go and replaced it with shite.
He had players like Crouch, Keane and Bellamy in his grasp and worked them for his own means.
Fucking hell what we wouldn't give for just one of them now.
According to Winter assuming he got another job "getting rid" would not cost more than £5m, I am very uncomfortable with the idea, but I am even less comfortable with the very real prospect of finishing outside the top four.
Of course I want him to succeed and take no pleasure in this sort of discussion, but as I said a few years ago, I won't get fooled again.


regards

[/quote]I agree with most of what you say Vlad. Im sure you know i am not a happy clapper or a rcdnw, and if i believed the current situation was of his own design i would be all over him like a rash. I dont think he has helped in the past, by any means. But for me SINCE the Keane debacle he has been exemplary. I cant fault a single thing he has done (with the possible exception of Yossi's withdrawal in the last couple of games) and i dont think he is in any way deserving of the flak he is getting.
Aquilani was meant to be FOUR to eight weeks away from the first team, and yes Rafa took a gamble with that, and its blown up spectacularly and we are now in week 13 and the lad hasnt started, but i'll be honest with you (and maybe this is the rub of why im letting him off lightly) id rather he took that risk than signed and inferior player who was fit from day one. Retrospectively of course Rafa and I have a bit of egg on our faces, but at the time i agreed with the decision, so i cant in good conscience flame him for it now.
And yes i agree we should never have let Bellamy and Crouch and Cisse and Pongolle and Keane go and i said as much at the time EVERY time, but Crouch wanted to go, Bellamy was always injured (the irony) and it was clear Keane and Benitez was a match made in hell. I still believe however if he knew he wouldnt get a penny to replace Keane he would still be here.

I think Rafa is guilty of the sins of the past and i know exactly why you and others are of the mind you are, but your standpoint and that of Rage (for example) are totally different.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36882.msg977716#msg977716 date=1257248854]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=36882.msg977713#msg977713 date=1257248670]
Well said Vlad.
[/quote]

Thank fuck someone agrees with me

regards
[/quote]

I don't think many would dispute much of that vlad, but it's not exclusively rafa's doing, though I agree it's contributory. The point about rage is still true though, if he stands there moaning for long enough eventually he'll be right, it doesn't make his often tiresome and ultimately perspective lacking points any less frustrating and conditional. People aren't ignoring his point, they're ignoring him because he doesn't know how to put a valid fair argument forward while showing objectivity, it's not a discussion or a debate when corresponding with him, so there's no point even trying.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977726#msg977726 date=1257249419]

I think Rafa is guilty of the sins of the past
[/quote]

I know, and it's the past that dictates what happens now. Anyone with a hole in their arse knew a striker has been the priority for two seasons now, and it never happened again in the summer, that is just negligent.

As regards Crouch, he did not want to go, he loved it here, I know that for a fact.
He went because he was not getting a fair crack of the whip, which we all know he wasn't. OK in hindsight he might have been better staying and taking his chance, but that was circumstances.

I will say this again . I know it's not all his fault , but he carries his fair share of the responsibility, and an element of criticism is justified.

The burning issue is what is going to happen to get us out of it? That has to be bring in better players in January, that should not be too hard.

regards
 
Do you honestly think there will be money for January? For a good striker? If you were a manager who wanted to bring one in during the summer and wants to in January, but can't, what would you say publicly? I just feel this is all going round in circles. The need for one is painfully obvious, yes.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36882.msg977728#msg977728 date=1257250333]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977726#msg977726 date=1257249419]

I think Rafa is guilty of the sins of the past
[/quote]

I know, and it's the past that dictates what happens now. Anyone with a hole in their arse knew a striker has been the priority for two seasons now, and it never happened again in the summer, that is just negligent.

As regards Crouch, he did not want to go, he loved it here, I know that for a fact.
He went because he was not getting a fair crack of the whip, which we all know he wasn't. OK in hindsight he might have been better staying and taking his chance, but that was circumstances.

I will say this again . I know it's not all his fault , but he carries his fair share of the responsibility, and an element of criticism is justified.

The burning issue is what is going to happen to get us out of it? That has to be bring in better players in January, that should not be too hard.

regards
[/quote]I agree again sir, and i would think that a striker would have been high on his agenda if not top, but then Arbeloa and Alonso requested to leave, so he replaced them. After that he wasnt given any funds to buy a striker.
And Crouch should have played more i AGAIN argued alongside you this very fact for 18 months but It was always going to be Torres...and then.... so he wanted assurances he was never going to get and rejected a new contract offer. I dont think Rafa could have done any different at the end.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36882.msg977681#msg977681 date=1257244526]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977621#msg977621 date=1257237977]
Lol@rage being ignored by 7 users now.
Tee Hee.
[/quote]

He may be on a crusade that is a bit one dimensional Andy, but I suspect that those using the ignore button just don't like the fact that the basis of his argument is becoming more and more credible.
Thank fuck society and politics don't have an ignore button.


regards
[/quote]

I think thats bollocks personally Vlad.

It's much more likely that the people who have put him on ignore, are just tired of reading posts from someone that seems to get pleasure from our troubles.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36882.msg976994#msg976994 date=1257148107]
Well, of course he is. I wouldn't expect any different from this season.

What a waste of money that contract extension was.
[/quote]

brilliant...
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36882.msg977737#msg977737 date=1257251746]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36882.msg977681#msg977681 date=1257244526]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977621#msg977621 date=1257237977]
Lol@rage being ignored by 7 users now.
Tee Hee.
[/quote]

He may be on a crusade that is a bit one dimensional Andy, but I suspect that those using the ignore button just don't like the fact that the basis of his argument is becoming more and more credible.
Thank fuck society and politics don't have an ignore button.


regards
[/quote]

I think thats bollocks personally Vlad.

It's much more likely that the people who have put him on ignore, are just tired of reading posts from someone that seems to get pleasure from our troubles.
[/quote]

I must admit I'll avoid posting anything in response to Vladders for a bit, simply because I respect him too much and really don't want to seem like I'm niggling him. He's one of the best we have. But as for rage, well, even when you have him on ignore he accuses you of 'stalking' him (I read that via someone's quote of his post). Giving rage credit for premature dogmatism is like a liberal praising Mary Whitehouse when they find something broadcast that offends. It's a specious argument.
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36882.msg977746#msg977746 date=1257252789]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36882.msg977737#msg977737 date=1257251746]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36882.msg977681#msg977681 date=1257244526]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977621#msg977621 date=1257237977]
Lol@rage being ignored by 7 users now.
Tee Hee.
[/quote]

He may be on a crusade that is a bit one dimensional Andy, but I suspect that those using the ignore button just don't like the fact that the basis of his argument is becoming more and more credible.
Thank fuck society and politics don't have an ignore button.


regards
[/quote]

I think thats bollocks personally Vlad.

It's much more likely that the people who have put him on ignore, are just tired of reading posts from someone that seems to get pleasure from our troubles.
[/quote]

I must admit I'll avoid posting anything in response to Vladders for a bit, simply because I respect him too much and really don't want to seem like I'm niggling him. He's one of the best we have. But as for rage, well, even when you have him on ignore he accuses you of 'stalking' him (I read that via someone's quote of his post). Giving rage credit for premature dogmatism is like a liberal praising Mary Whitehouse when they find something broadcast that offends. It's a specious argument.
[/quote]

Ha.

Firstly i should say that i've not put Rage on ignore, but i can fully understand why some people might. This is a person that hardly ever posts anything positive after a win, but he's like a chimp on speed when we've lost. Forget injuries, the yanks, the players themselves or simply plain old bad luck, it's always 100% Rafa's fault.

He's simply a forum idiot who has grown to like the attention he gets from abusing one of our own.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36882.msg977681#msg977681 date=1257244526]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977621#msg977621 date=1257237977]
Lol@rage being ignored by 7 users now.
Tee Hee.
[/quote]

He may be on a crusade that is a bit one dimensional Andy, but I suspect that those using the ignore button just don't like the fact that the basis of his argument is becoming more and more credible.
Thank fuck society and politics don't have an ignore button.


regards
[/quote]

Let me clarify this as one of the "ignorers" Vlad. I don't like the hysterical cunt. What exactly is his point? As Farky mentioned he changes his diatribe time after time to suit his purpose.

I'll listen to the likes of you and Rosco with your moderate and rational musings on why Rafa is wrong for us, I'll even debate that with you but frankly indulging Rage is like indulging Nick Griffin. It only serves to give the cunt greater publicity and seeing as the extremism of both their views is in the same ball park, I believe that not responding is for the greater good.

I tried to debate with Rage and was labelled as "Rafa's cocksucker" with boring regularity. I tried trading insults and the result was that numerous respected people said that this was equally boring, so I've stopped with those.

I'm fucked if I'm going to "debate" with someone who would struggle to understand the word objectivity. I'd sit in a pub with you all night discussing this, the same cannot be said of people like Rage. They don't want discussion, free speech, democracy etc, they want a dictatorship where they, and only they and people who agree with them, are.

Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

The only positive thing out of the whole "Rage" debate is that the real debaters and gentlemen of the site have come to the fore. At least with him on ignore I can see the wood for the trees.
 
Torres unlikely to need surgery
by Jason Darby | Tuesday, November 3rd, 2009

The press have been filled with speculation this morning concerning potential hernia surgery for Fernando Torres.

Such surgery would require between 6 and 8 weeks out of action.

However such stories are seemingly unfounded and we’ve been told that Torres is indeed suffering from muscular injury in his groin which will hopefully be allowed to settle with rest over the forthcoming international break.

Liverpool’s medical team decided that he could be used sparingly a week apart – in the games against Man United and Fulham – but that the player could not play both games in their entirety.

Torres has traveled with the club to France this morning. The reds would much prefer to start Torres on the bench – the risk is of bringing him on and then requiring another substitute to bring him off.

Liverpool’s following fixture will be on the Monday night against Birmingham in the Premier League. The medical team will be hoping to nurse Torres through the next two games before a 12 day lay off.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977698#msg977698 date=1257247457]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36882.msg977681#msg977681 date=1257244526]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977621#msg977621 date=1257237977]
Lol@rage being ignored by 7 users now.
Tee Hee.
[/quote]

He may be on a crusade that is a bit one dimensional Andy, but I suspect that those using the ignore button just don't like the fact that the basis of his argument is becoming more and more credible.
Thank fuck society and politics don't have an ignore button.


regards
[/quote]I feel in a bit of a unique position here to be honest Vlad, in that everyone knows i am anti-Rafa and have been for years.
The position i have stated over the last few days however is unlikely to change given the peculiar and trying set of circumstances the man finds himself in.
He took second place in the league right? Now you and I were amongst those saying that he should have won it. In November last year we were saying as draw after draw played out, that there and then Rafa was costing us the title. I still believe that. I believe that if he had gone out to win those games we would have won the league last year. We may have had 4 losses instead of 2, but we would have a few less draws to boot.
He fucked up and at the time while he was fucking up i wanted him gone. There was a bunch of reasons for that, including poor spending, poor substitutions, poor squad/team selections, and mostly because he was virtually out of contract, we had a reasonably fit squad and a.n.other manager could have come in and with a more attacking outlook won us that league title (credit here to United who went on a blistering run and WON the league).
I argued long that his treatment of Keane was a damning indictment of the man himself and his refusal to select keane was hampering our bid. I really didnt and still dont like Rafa personally. I think he is a bully, a coniver, a liar and an excuse maker (a lot like Winter i suppose) but. HE TOOK US TO SECOND PLACE. And on the back of that was given a 4 year deal. Regardless of wether or not anyone agrees with it he was also given certain agreements in that deal, and those agreements have not been met. He is the one now being hamstrung by a board that have lied (or at least misled) to him.
The time to get rid if we were going to was last November when his dogmatic treatment of keane and his refusal to stamp home our advantage was costing us the league. Not 12 months later when he has taken a much earned second place in the league, been given a 4 year deal (that will cost us up to 20m to get him out of) and most importantly a season in which he has shown from the beginning his intentions to go out and attack and try to win the title.
You and I both said he couldnt or wouldnt change his ways but he did Vlad, he has totally changed his ways, we are probably the highest scoring team in world football in this calender year. And unlike previous years he hasnt started pragmatically and then built up to a climactic finale, he has gone at it from game one, he wants to go out and win the league, thats so clear to me, we are a totally attacking side. But he's been derailed by miserable luck (of which he hasnt really moaned at all yet another change) and the boards refusal to release the Xabi Alonso and Alvaro Arbeloa funds for anything other than a 1m Centre back. We needed a player of quality in the attacking third, and we didnt get it. Which was ok if we didnt get injuries, which we did. Which was okay if Babel stepped up, which he hasnt...So yeah its been tough.

Finishing 2nd last year and not winning it was Rafa's fault, but he did finish 2nd to the best team in the country who went and won 14 games on the bounce from December to March, and thats what it took to beat us, neat perfection (and no injuries to their best 2 attacking players). And second in the league should give you a season to better it. BUuut you can only better it if you are given the opportunity and the fortune to do so. Rafa is beset by bad luck at present, and paying him 20m to fuck off isnt going to change it.

Im not going off on the bad supporter route, because i just dont believe in it, one mans meat and all that, but supporting the club now is the best that we the fans can do, i think its important that we all remember what it is we do best and that IS be the best most supportive fans in the world. Im convinced we have the tools to do really well this year, and im convinced we have a manager intent on proving it, we just need some fortune and a board willing to support him in January. Although im not to foolish to think that given our run of luck at present that may already be too late to salvage this season.

Double regards with a cherry on top.
[/quote]

Are you trying to say that an agreement on a transfer budget formed part of his contract ?

Why doesn't Rafa sue for breach of contract then ?
 
Im assuming that since then they have explained that wages were included in the agreement.
I just dont think he would have signed if they had told him he would have 2.6m to spend on new players Rosco. Do you?
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977916#msg977916 date=1257275460]

Im assuming that since then they have explained that wages were included in the agreement.
I just dont think he would have signed if they had told him he would have 2.6m to spend on new players Rosco. Do you?
[/quote]


Oncy I would be absolutely amazed if any Chairman of any club in the league was stupid enough to commit to a transfer budget in a binding document.

There are too many things that can go wrong.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36882.msg977919#msg977919 date=1257275558]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977916#msg977916 date=1257275460]

Im assuming that since then they have explained that wages were included in the agreement.
I just dont think he would have signed if they had told him he would have 2.6m to spend on new players Rosco. Do you?
[/quote]


Oncy I would be absolutely amazed if any Chairman of any club in the league was stupid enough to commit to a transfer budget in a binding document.

There are too many things that can go wrong.
[/quote]I didnt say it was a binding document. Perhaps it was a gentlemans agreement.
I say again reports pre-july were all keane money plus 20m to strengthen.
He got 2.6m
I just dont think he would have signed without assurances.
 
Reports in the media Oncy ?

Come on. After losing 40m last year it was never on the cards that we'd spend big this year.

If the scenario was as you have it there I wish they'd told him he's only got 2.6m.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36882.msg977931#msg977931 date=1257276097]
Reports in the media Oncy ?

Come on. After losing 40m last year it was never on the cards that we'd spend big this year.

If the scenario was as you have it there I wish they'd told him he's only got 2.6m.
[/quote]Lol. Me too.
 
Sounds better regarding Torres.

LYON LATEST: TORRES FITNESS UPDATE
James Carroll in Lyon 03 November 2009
Rafa Benitez is confident Fernando Torres can avoid the need for an operation as the boss prepares to include the striker in his plans for Wednesday's crunch clash with Lyon.
The Spain international is being eased back into action as he continues to recover from a groin injury - and Benitez insists he will continue to play it safe with the fitness of the Reds' No.9.

"We know Fernando has a problem, and we have to manage it," the boss told his pre-match press conference in France.

"The positive thing is that he is improving, and he is in less pain each time he plays and trains.

"Hopefully if we can continue doing well with him, he will not need an operation - that is our idea.

"Now it is a question of how he feels and what will happen if he plays.

"I talk to the players after every training session and every game. After United, he needed four days to be ready again. After Fulham, he told me he was much better but still feeling something.

"Yesterday he was better still and hopefully tomorrow he will be even better."

Torres was named in the 19-man squad that touched down in Lyon on Tuesday afternoon, and he was joined by Daniel Agger, Alberto Aquilani and David Ngog on the flight from John Lennon airport.

But the Reds are without Steven Gerrard, Glen Johnson, Martin Skrtel and Fabio Aurelio for the encounter with Lyon, and Benitez admits the current injury situation has hindered his side's form.

He said: "We have good players but too many injuries. If you think of any of the top sides in the world, if they lose three players who could start, and four or five who could be on the bench, it is not easy."

Asked for the latest on Gerrard's fitness, Benitez replied: "Gerrard has been working with our physios and fitness coach. He was improving, but it is too early. We have to wait two or three days to see his reaction, but he is doing well."

The boss was quizzed on whether Alberto Aquilani could make his first start for the Reds at the Stade Gerland.

"We will see how he trains and afterwards we will decide," he said. "We analyse every single player after every training session and then we have a meeting. But now is too early."

The Spaniard also confirmed the Reds will assess the fitness of Agger after training tonight.

Meanwhile, Benitez believes Liverpool can draw inspiration from past European triumphs as the Reds go in search of another famous win in France.

Liverpool head into Wednesday's fixture at the Stade Gerland having amassed just three points from their opening three fixtures in Group E, while Lyon have a 100 per cent record in the competition.

However, Benitez cited the Reds' 2007-08 Champions League campaign as proof his charges' European aspirations are far from over.

Liverpool had collected just one point at this stage of the competition two years ago, but comprehensive victories over Besiktas, Porto and Marseille saw them progress into the last 16 of the tournament.

"We have been talking about this. We have some experience and we know it is difficult, but you always have to have the belief you can do it because we have done it in the past," he said.

"We have a lot of respect for Lyon because they are a good team, but we have to try to do our job and win.

"At a top side, every game is important. We will try to do our best, but we can't do anything other than be ready.

"We have a lot of very good memories here in France, and it will be a massive achievement for us if we can win.

"We have experience of winning in the last games when we needed to, so it is important to have the spirit and belief we can do it and take confidence from these very good memories."

He added: "Our fans are very clever. Sometimes you have bad moments, but they know we are working very hard to try and change things.

"We will try to win and we know that when you walk through a storm, hold your head up high - and we will try to hold our heads up high."
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=36882.msg977726#msg977726 date=1257249419]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36882.msg977712#msg977712 date=1257248604]
I'm flattered by the quality and length of the reply Andy.
You are dead right about our respective positions last year, I don't think I am wrong in saying we had our doubts in seasons before that.
I do think there is a lot of speculation in what you say about arrangememnts with the owners, but I will ignore that for the sake of the discussion.
My position is this. I accept it is not all Benitez doing, but I think a very big chunk of it is and I just want people to accept that is the case and stop sticing their heads in the sand.
I know you rate Aqualani very highly and am sure you are right in that, but Benitez took a massive gamble on that, and it is , as we watch, blowing up in his face, we needed someone to hit the ground running in August. As has been said we have "virtually no one" up front when Torres is missing, he had months to sort that out when Keane went. The squad is like tissue paper, he has let deadwood go and replaced it with shite.
He had players like Crouch, Keane and Bellamy in his grasp and worked them for his own means.
Fucking hell what we wouldn't give for just one of them now.
According to Winter assuming he got another job "getting rid" would not cost more than £5m, I am very uncomfortable with the idea, but I am even less comfortable with the very real prospect of finishing outside the top four.
Of course I want him to succeed and take no pleasure in this sort of discussion, but as I said a few years ago, I won't get fooled again.


regards

[/quote]I agree with most of what you say Vlad. Im sure you know i am not a happy clapper or a rcdnw, and if i believed the current situation was of his own design i would be all over him like a rash. I dont think he has helped in the past, by any means. But for me SINCE the Keane debacle he has been exemplary. I cant fault a single thing he has done (with the possible exception of Yossi's withdrawal in the last couple of games) and i dont think he is in any way deserving of the flak he is getting.
Aquilani was meant to be FOUR to eight weeks away from the first team, and yes Rafa took a gamble with that, and its blown up spectacularly and we are now in week 13 and the lad hasnt started, but i'll be honest with you (and maybe this is the rub of why im letting him off lightly) id rather he took that risk than signed and inferior player who was fit from day one. Retrospectively of course Rafa and I have a bit of egg on our faces, but at the time i agreed with the decision, so i cant in good conscience flame him for it now.
And yes i agree we should never have let Bellamy and Crouch and Cisse and Pongolle and Keane go and i said as much at the time EVERY time, but Crouch wanted to go, Bellamy was always injured (the irony) and it was clear Keane and Benitez was a match made in hell. I still believe however if he knew he wouldnt get a penny to replace Keane he would still be here.

I think Rafa is guilty of the sins of the past and i know exactly why you and others are of the mind you are, but your standpoint and that of Rage (for example) are totally different.
[/quote]

Completely agree with the part in bold and Bellemy had to be sold you can't just go around attacking people with golf clubs, stupid fucker should have ended up in jail but as usual people are completely ignoring this in order to suit their own arguments.
 
I've effectively been on the moon for 5 days. Could someone please give me the bare bones on injuries, who's in, who's out, etc etc. Without me having to trawl through everyone of these threads please?

Ta.
 
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