define 'religious'
So just outta interest, if losing the Derby..(the impromptu wine thread)
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Your opinion of Stewart Lee.
you're avoiding debating me cos you cant operate on my intellectual level.
Haha OK. I didn't think it was really worth a response.
Presumably you think my definition of 'religious' is likely to be deficient in some way.
Maybe it is. But it's beside the point of the existing debate. For the purpose of the debate I was just using 'religious' as a shorthand for Fark's assertion of the reason people support football clubs. Just a simple 'he said that but I think this'. That's it.
Presumably you think my definition of 'religious' is likely to be deficient in some way.
Maybe it is. But it's beside the point of the existing debate. For the purpose of the debate I was just using 'religious' as a shorthand for Fark's assertion of the reason people support football clubs. Just a simple 'he said that but I think this'. That's it.
I know it is.
And everything you wrote after that is pure gibberish so I'm not engaging with it.
What I was trying to say is that Fark was basically asserting that the actual business of following the team was absurd and superstitious - the idea that supporters think a collective will can propel the team to victory. I referred to that as seeing support in somewhat religious terms - and only in passing and as a contrast to my own view. Whether that's correct or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether his initial assertion is right.
Why is thinking collective will has an affect on the team superstitious? It clearly does.
This is the lad Sean said had decent contacts if I remember correctly? Not been bullshitting earlier at least.
@GraemeKelly1: FSG just getting the Derby etc out of the way. Rodgers will go the week after. #LFC
@GraemeKelly1: Will reply back tomorrow. I'm out ATM. No reason to doubt the person that told be about BR. Also said Ayre met Carlo las week in NY. #LFC
Time will tell eh...
@GraemeKelly1: FSG just getting the Derby etc out of the way. Rodgers will go the week after. #LFC
@GraemeKelly1: Will reply back tomorrow. I'm out ATM. No reason to doubt the person that told be about BR. Also said Ayre met Carlo las week in NY. #LFC
Time will tell eh...
I don't want to lead you on Pete; that's all the debating I'm gonna do. You should be thankful I even went that far tbh.
I presume he thought it was superstitious because he also claimed it was obviously absurd. That's to say, I think he meant collective will as something much wider than what the fans do at the match.
Because I agree with you that it obviously does have an effect. But he said it was patently absurd so I can't believe he was referring to actual match going support.
You would, mein Herr. I've no objection at all to a nice bottle of Riesling but Cloudy Bay Sauvignon Blanc is the best white wine I've ever drunk.
He's mates with that knobhead Jay Riley who was hearing whispers of Reus though.
There's stories about him being gone after the derby regardless. Also talk of De Boer
Just like there's no such thing as good Shiraz, just some that hasn't been strained through tar for quite as long.
I can confirm I met Ayre earlier today. Reassurances the job is mine after the Derby. He's a prat as we all thought. I'll be insisting he goes once I'm in place
Super
I know mate. But I think Sean said this lad has decent contacts.
Religion is an easy analogy, that many people have used to describe supporting football. I described it as poetic, not religious, but whether you see it in religious terms or tribal terms is a distinction without much of a difference to me.
If you see a distinction there, that's fine, I wasn't interested in having that discussion, and it wasn't the point of my post. I didn't seek to give some thorough account of why people support a club, I just said there was an absurdity at the root of the act of supporting/willing something to happen that you have no control over, and for me, whether that's bound up in belonging, tribalism, religion etc. isn't interesting.
If you don't watch a game, ever, in any setting with a sense that your involvement is supporting the team beyond supplying money, that's totally valid, but its not my experience. It's also not my experience that when at a game, or even around other supporters, I'm thinking, if everyone makes noise collectively, it's a practical way of assisting the team. It just happens, and it is for me an absurd act of collective will. And at it's best you can't tell me it doesn't work, and sadly I've never been part of one of those times. As I said, you could instead describe it as an expression of tribalism, but then its the idea that our collective will and morale will overcome our enemy. It isn't just some dispassionate "studies have shown that war drums are an effective means of organizing our troops and increasing morale," instead there's an authentic belief behind it, in fact that's precisely why it increases morale.
You did however try to give some account, and I genuinely don't understand the point you are making. I think you could probably explain what you do mean more carefully, thus making sure people aren't arguing points you didn't make, but again, and I'm not being rude, I genuinely don't care. Because you seem to really want to have the discussion about what you said, I will indulge you:
You are saying
1) Humans have a deep-rooted preference for teamwork.
2) This impulse drives adoption of a team
3) This adoption of a team creates loyalty
4) Loyalty creates interest
5) Interest creates attendance
6) Those attending experience the togetherness, and this combined with pragmatism drives vocal support.
You clarify that 6 doesn't necessarily follow from 1, which is of course true, in that most supporters don't attend games. It's not the most persuasive series of statements seeking to describe a phenomenon.
I don't find anything particularly wrong or right about this account, because it is super vague. Football is a cultural practice, I think like anything there are biological impulses behind it, but simply saying that the root of interest in sport is a preference for teamwork is reductionist in the extreme. I can buy that we're all looking to belong to one tribe, and whether its advertising, peer groups, or parental brainwashing, this impulse attaches to a club. I can also buy that its an ingrained cultural practice to watch football and support a team, and that those people who are exposed to this cultural practice emulate it.
The rest of the points are kindof meaningless. Adoption of a team creates loyalty? Loyalty creates interest? Well, you could say that loyalty is demonstrated by showing interest, over time. Interest creates attendance? You could also say interest is demonstrated by attendance, amongst those who have the means, and for whom it attendance is a possibility. I don't understand what you are getting at here at all.
To recap, the only real points in this whole thing are the bare assertion that people support football teams for a deep-rooted biological preference for teamwork, and that the acts surrounding supporting a club (singing, yelling etc) are pragmatic as well as symptomatic or perhaps expressive of a feeling of togetherness. I find the former to be probably true, but an incredibly incomplete account of something I wasn't even talking about, and the the latter to be not true.
kill me
I only did what Peter asked me to do. I'm in a charitable mood, but I'm afraid I can't kill you from where I'm at. You'll have to take matters into your own hands.
I bet both of you thought rimmer was the cool one on red dwarf.
There was a cool one on Red Dwarf?
There certainly was.
I don't know that show, but I'm well aware I'm capable of being tedious, boring, wordy, and that I'm not cool. Next to me in my room are astronomy binoculars on a tripod, a music stand with Beethoven's 8th, a series of disc golf discs, and then tassadar from starcraft. The coolest thing in my room is my fretless bass, and even that is dorky, with an f-hole. I'm just waiting till I can leave work. And there you are, such a fucking alpha, spending your evening conversing with me.
Most of that stuff is very cool.
The only thing wrong with it is the fretless bass.
I fucking hate fretless bass*.
*Sly & The Family Stone are one of my favourite bands.
And the F hole is cool.
Nah fretless is awesome if a dickhead isn't holding it.
No worries your honour. Prefer a nice Bordeaux or Beaujolais to any white wine.
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