post Chelsea thoughts

[StevieM]

Its easy, to say, we've outscored everyone, therefore a goalscorer like Kane or Aguero isn't an issue but it evidently is an issue.

It's easy to say it because it's true.

One of the biggest fundamental mistakes, in my opinion, is looking at players in other teams and automatically assuming they would make us better.

It's a trade off - our team scores so much because someone like Firmino works tirelessly to close down opposition defenders and create space for fellow attackers - therefore enabling us to score, collectively, more than anyone else.

No-ones denying that Costa, et al, aren't top notch, but teams are built round them, so getting more out of them individually.

Spurs aren't anywhere near as dangerous without Kane.

It's no surprise that we aren't and have rarely seemed as potent under Klopp when Sturridge is occupying the central striker role - regardless of current form.

We have a vibrant and exceptionally talented forward line - scoring goals is not our problem - scoring more goals will not necessarily improve our ability to win things.

The problems are elsewhere.

 

[HC]

Spurs arent built around kane, Chelsea aren't built around costa and utd whilst clearly utilising ibras strengths arguably still aren't built around him, certainly less so than we built the Rodgers side around suarez and Sturridge, I think the results and obvious benefits spoke for themselves in that instance too.

Sturridge also works far less tirelessly than a of the aforementioned forwards, so I don't think that argument holds much merit, costa works like a fiend, he presses just as hard as Firmino does, possibly even more so.

Its not about scoring goals, its the type of goals and situations you score them in. I have every faith that with the quality of the front 5, when a team comes to play, just as Chelsea did, that we will score - that is not and has never been the issue, the issue is, that when teams drop deep and allow us to control the ball, when we aren't firing on all cylinders, we cannot break them down.

I'm not saying adding a forward like Kane instantly remedies those situations but it almost certainly gives the defenders additional headaches, whilst offering that match winner ability, which I don't think any of our forwards have anywhere consistently enough to make us a real threat for the title.

 

[keniget]

We have a vibrant and exceptionally talented forward line - scoring goals is not our problem - scoring more goals will not necessarily improve our ability to win things.

It's seemed to be a pretty big problem this last month.

5 goals in 8 games... something like that?

 

[LeTallecWiz]

It's seemed to be a pretty big problem this last month.

5 goals in 8 games... something like that?

How many times have we started with a fully fit Coutinho-Firmino-Mane? That is our problem ... no depth past a front 3 that saw us score freely.

 

[keniget]

How many times have we started with a fully fit Coutinho-Firmino-Mane? That is our problem ... no depth past a front 3 that saw us score freely.

So we do need to add a top quality striker...

It'll be interesting to see how we do for the remainder of the season and whether (now that we have this front three back) we return to scoring freely or the goals dry up.

 

[ILD]

I'd always welcome a top quality striker into the side but we scored two against Swansea, three against Bournemouth, two against Sunderland and West Ham and didn't win any of those games. Defense / keeper is probably a bigger problem as we are top scorers in the league. I think we've only failed to score in about three games in the league this season, one was the horror show at Burnley, one was the 0-0 borefest with United and the other was Southampton I think.

 

[ILD]

It's seemed to be a pretty big problem this last month.

5 goals in 8 games... something like that?

Dry January was awful for a lot of people. No goals and no alcohol.

 

[StevieM]

We've failed to score 3 times in 23 games in the League, which means, we can and we have broken down stubborn defences consistently across the season.

Chelsea have failed to score in 2.
Spurs have failed to score in 3.
Man City have failed to score in 4.

We've kept 6 clean sheets in that time.

Chelsea have kept 13.
Spurs have kept 11.
Man City have kept 7.

 

[manwithnoname]

So we do need to add a top quality striker...

It'll be interesting to see how we do for the remainder of the season and whether (now that we have this front three back) we return to scoring freely or the goals dry up.

Of course we do. Only the biggest cretin would deny that.

As for the goalscoring, it's very hard to predict. I'd be surprised if we ended the season as top scorers, simply because it's hard to work out who's going to score them.

There was lots of chat a while ago that Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana were "on target" to get 10 or even 15 goals. Or possibly 17-20!

Which not one of them have ever even got close to, ever. Mane is the best finisher we have, so he may go close. Lallana has scored once in his last 10 games. Coutinho is stuck on 5. Firmino has 8 in total.

Poor old Origi has gone from "potentially world class" to "what the fuck's happened?" in about 6 weeks as if his 5 goals in 5 games earlier this season was ever going to be replicated, or were a true indicator of his quality.

Sturridge appears to be broken.

Hopefully we can get back to the form and goalscoring prowess of earlier in the season, and add in some decent defensive performances to keep more clean sheets. If that happens we will be a certainty for a Top 4 finish at least.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

So we do need to add a top quality striker...

It'll be interesting to see how we do for the remainder of the season and whether (now that we have this front three back) we return to scoring freely or the goals dry up.

we were scoring a shit load with Firmino - correct?
Will adding a better striker make us better? Sure, but our team's struggles started because once Coutinho went out, we had no one to ensure we kept Firmino central, which is where he can create problems.
I think we'd be able to be as dangerous if we sign two Mane like players ... I believe we can win the league with 4-6 8-15 goal scorers ...

 

[LeTallecWiz]

You're so so predictable Brendan ... When our best 11 were on, everyone was on track to do what people were saying ... Coutinho's injury derailed that.

I thought Studge was our best finisher? Now it's Mane?

 

[manwithnoname]

we were scoring a shit load with Firmino - correct?
Will adding a better striker make us better? Sure, but our team's struggles started because once Coutinho went out, we had no one to ensure we kept Firmino central, which is where he can create problems.
I think we'd be able to be as dangerous if we sign two Mane like players ... I believe we can win the league with 4-6 8-15 goal scorers ...

Yeah, there's the problem.

Mane will get maybe 15. That's a stretch.

Firmino might even get 12. But probably won't.

Lallana has 7, but his best ever total is 9, and that's the same amount he managed in TWO seasons at Liverpool, prior to this.
Coutinho has 5, and his highest total is 8.
Origi has 9 Premiership goals in his entire career.

I wouldn't share your confidence

 

[manwithnoname]

You're so so predictable Brendan ... When our best 11 were on, everyone was on track to do what people were saying ... Coutinho's injury derailed that.

I thought Studge was our best finisher? Now it's Mane?

He is our best finisher. Sadly, it would seem he can no longer run. Such a shame.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Yeah, there's the problem.

Mane will get maybe 15. That's a stretch.

Firmino might even get 12. But probably won't.

Lallana has 7, but his best ever total is 9, and that's the same amount he managed in TWO seasons at Liverpool, prior to this.
Coutinho has 5, and his highest total is 8.
Origi has 9 Premiership goals in his entire career.

I wouldn't share your confidence

Obviously, if our team had stayed healthy, I think we'd have been fine ... To repeat, our struggles begun once our thin squad lost Coutinho and that ensured either Studge/Origi/Firmino was on the flank, which meant, we're playing with 10 players basically ...

We'll be fine if we get two more players of Mane's (he's not world class, but he's at a very good level) quality so we have Coutinho / Firmino / Mane / Player1/ Player 2 ... That's good enough to score goals against good teams ... Won't improve our defense mind you.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

He is our best finisher. Sadly, it would seem he can no longer run. Such a shame.

Yah - but let's be honest, he's never really shown he can do it week in, week out bar one magical season ... Gerrard mentions it in his book - he's weak mentally, and he's injury prone. He is probably the most gifted English striker of his generation too -

 

[HC]

How many times have we started with a fully fit Coutinho-Firmino-Mane? That is our problem ... no depth past a front 3 that saw us score freely.

That's exactly the issue, what does happen to our side when of those three is injured or shits the bed during a match? we fucking flop, that's what.

Its precisely why a proper number 9 is needed

 

[keniget]

we were scoring a shit load with Firmino - correct?
Will adding a better striker make us better? Sure, but our team's struggles started because once Coutinho went out, we had no one to ensure we kept Firmino central, which is where he can create problems.
I think we'd be able to be as dangerous if we sign two Mane like players ... I believe we can win the league with 4-6 8-15 goal scorers ...

I agree with bits on both sides of the argument (which as usual has become polarised):

Good:

• I rate a lot of our players and don't think we have that much in the way of dead wood.
• It is of course a good thing to have a group of players are capable of hitting double figures.

Bad:

• I think we are wasteful in front of goal and lack clinical finishers, which leads to increased pressure on the team to create chances.
• We are good when everyone is on their game but really struggle when we have to carry one or two players. That is not a sustainable path to success.

To some extent the argument or whatever you want to call it comes down to labels. Brendan is asking for a "a top quality striker", you're saying more players like Mane.

So essentially we need to buy some good attackers and everyone agrees.

 

[manwithnoname]

I agree with bits on both sides of the argument (which as usual has become polarised):

Good:

• I rate a lot of our players and don't think we have that much in the way of dead wood.
• It is of course a good thing to have a group of players are capable of hitting double figures.

Bad:

• I think we are wasteful in front of goal and lack clinical finishers, which leads to increased pressure on the team to create chances.
• We are good when everyone is on their game but really struggle when we have to carry one or two players. That is not a sustainable path to success.

To some extent the argument or whatever you want to call it comes down to labels. Brendan is asking for a "a top quality striker", you're saying more players like Mane.

So essentially we need to buy some good attackers and everyone agrees.

I obviously think, like many, that we actually need to have a great striker too. But this has long been a requirement.

A couple more "Mane"s - pacy, skilful, goalscoring attackers - well, who wouldn't want that?

Because at the moment, while we may have a group of players "capable" of hitting double figures, there's a difference between "capable" and "likely to".

And we haven't even touched on the goal return you might want from midfield ideally.

We can leave the atrocious defence and goalkeeping buffoonery to another thread

 

[Hansern]

How many times have we started with a fully fit Coutinho-Firmino-Mane? That is our problem ... no depth past a front 3 that saw us score freely.

They havent started a game together since Sunderland at home, but we havent had Lallana in midfield and Coutinho- Firmino- Mane on the pitch together since Watford at home.

 

[StevieM]

It's seemed to be a pretty big problem this last month.

5 goals in 8 games... something like that?

Well yes - when we haven't been playing Firmino centrally, missing Mane, have Coutinho coming back from injury, and Sturridge & Origi terribly out of form.

Changing the makeup of the defence & midfield in practically every game during January has hardly laid the foundations for attacking brilliance either.

It's absolutely no coincidence that settled teams deliver more consistent results and are more effective at covering perceived individual failings.

 

[manwithnoname]

They havent started a game together since Sunderland at home, but we havent had Lallana in midfield and Coutinho- Firmino- Mane on the pitch together since Watford at home.

Great, so that's four players who can't perform or score goals at a sufficiently high level unless ALL FOUR are playing, in the exact positions required.

 

[rurikbird]

Great, so that's four players who can't perform or score goals at a sufficiently high level unless ALL FOUR are playing, in the exact positions required.

Yep, that's pretty much correct. I don't buy this argument that as long as we play the exact tactics and personnel as we did in the beginning of the season and magically keep everyone fit all the time (which never happens in reality), we are totally fine. Teams always need to evolve, because the league adjusts to what you've been doing before, so you can't expect to win the league doing the same exact thing for 38 games. If a slight loss of form of couple of players or moving somebody out of position creates huge problems that a team can't figure out how to overcome, that hints at larger problems in the squad.

 

[Oliver Twist]

That's exactly the issue, what does happen to our side when of those three is injured or shits the bed during a match? we fucking flop, that's what.

Its precisely why a proper number 9 is needed

You can't just replace any one of those players with a 'no 9'; it derails the whole system. We need to replace them like for like. Or as near to it.

 

[Hansern]

Yep, that's pretty much correct. I don't buy this argument that as long as we play the exact tactics and personnel as we did in the beginning of the season and magically keep everyone fit all the time (which never happens in reality), we are totally fine. Teams always need to evolve, because the league adjusts to what you've been doing before, so you can't expect to win the league doing the same exact thing for 38 games. If a slight loss of form of couple of players or moving somebody out of position creates huge problems that a team can't figure out how to overcome, that hints at larger problems in the squad.

It was more a confirmation that we've missed some key players since November. It has highlighted our lack of depth in quality.

 

[Mersey86]

Great, so that's four players who can't perform or score goals at a sufficiently high level unless ALL FOUR are playing, in the exact positions required.

Or ... alternatively .. four players who play so well together that they make us the most potent attacking force in the league.

 

[Vlads Quiff]

Surely it's more desirable that the goals are spread around several players than just relying on one- don't get me wrong we should have a prolific striker though

 

[Insignificance]

I think you're "somewhat baffled" because you're talking bollocks.

Costa totally bullied our defence. He won a penalty. How was he the same as Firmino? Who was abysmal, missed two chances and gave the ball away more than any other player? But because Costa didn't score he was "the exact same"?

Well, not really. He's scored twice as many goals as Firmino so far this season, so in the larger context, it's obvious who is the better striker. Firmino has one of the worst shots/goals ratios in the entire league.

As for our defence, again, what's your fucking point? Because Chelsea only scored once that somehow means our defence is OK? I don't recall you crashing into the Forum after we conceded three goals at home to Swansea claiming everything was just fucking fine and dandy.

Of the Top 8, only West Brom have conceded more goals. Well, actually just one more. The much-maligned Man City, with the widely mocked Bravo and useless Stones,have conceded exactly the same number of goals as Liverpool.

So yeah, we do have one of the worst defences in the Top part of the Premiership, and Costa is a miles better player than Firmino.

I hope that has made you less baffled.

Hahaha. That you spout nonsense has never baffled me. You do it pretty much all the time.... An attention seeking dumbass that I couldn't care less about.

But lets pretend I was to take you seriously -

Lets pretend you are right about that we have the "by far" worst defence in the top half of PL. This shitty defend that earned a 4 and a 5 (5 in average?) on Your ratings, for keeping Chelsea quite all night. I hear you repeat that they were bullied by Costa all night. The result of that bullying was a single shot on target from the magnificent Costa (on top of it it was a piss poor penalty which he dived to earn.). So based on the stats and evidence from Tuesday night (I assume that was the one you did the ratings for?) Our defence was (and is) totally hopeless and still kept the magnificant Costa and his fantastic teammates to 2 shots all night. How is that bullying? Is it ok that Costas "bullying" result in absolutely nothing while when people talked about Firminos pressure against Man U resulted in the corner we scored from resulted in you ridiculing his presence.

And lets still talk about Tuesday were same Firmino met the world class defence, and was at the end of two great chances. A hopeless striker in your eyes meeting the best defence in the League creating the double of a magnificent striker Meeting the worst defence in the League, and still you hail the magnificent Costa for his fantastic game while Firmino is slated.

Hahaha.... what a sad fucking clown you are!!

 

[HC]

I think the term bullying got lost in translation , insig ..

he literally , physically bullied is the other night, along with kante, they dpd us for 90 minutes

 

[Insignificance]

I think the term bullying got lost in translation , insig ..

he literally , physically bullied is the other night, along with kante, they dpd us for 90 minutes

No it did not get lost. Physically chasing us and pressing us. Yeah. But creating us problems? No. We managed to keep the ball, chase a goal and win that point well deserved. The point is why this is magnificent when Costa does it and toothless when Firmino does it?

 

[KopRed]

The problem with us is, you never know where the goals are coming from. When we are bang on form, great, but when we are not, as it is now, we look as blunt as Sunderland minus Defoe.

Look at the past winning sides, you always know where the goals are coming from.

Blackburn - S & S
Manc before - Always the great crosses with Beckham Neville Giggs et el and the set pieces
Arsenal before - Henry + supporting casts like Overmars etc.
Last season Leicester - Vardy, Mahrez
This season Chelsea - Costa, Hazard

To bring my point across, we almost won the league when the 3S were consistently plummeting goals.

Unfortunately before we find some consistent and reliable scorers, or alternatively a better defence + some Leicester luck, we are never going to win the league.