Modo: in fairness, without disagreeing on the point itself, I didn't think it was a great idea for Rafa to be saying it openly.
lucas
- Thread starter redhorizon2
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Status
That's true. Could be a cultural thing. I don't remember Rafa criticising players publicly.
I don't buy into with this notion that Gerrard was never really suited for the central midfield role.
His performances at the age of 34 and the opinion of Rafa, a defensive minded control freak who was never quite able to build out the attack properly lest it sacrifice the defence in any way shape or form, make for a pretty poor argument.
His performances at the age of 34 and the opinion of Rafa, a defensive minded control freak who was never quite able to build out the attack properly lest it sacrifice the defence in any way shape or form, make for a pretty poor argument.
Did he take us to the promised land?
Rafa.
Err... well, if the promised land is the league title, then no he didn't.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
What I'm getting at is that he won us a CL title and got us to another final. I'll take his advice for the time being.
And what Rafa did / didn't achieve is besides the point.
The point is that Rafa didn't like Gerrard as a CM in his rather rigid system. That doesn't mean to say he can't play CM. There are other systems and managers who have different approaches to the game just might have found a place for Gerrard in midfield.
The point is that Rafa didn't like Gerrard as a CM in his rather rigid system. That doesn't mean to say he can't play CM. There are other systems and managers who have different approaches to the game just might have found a place for Gerrard in midfield.
That league campaign went really well. However I seem to remember Hamann and Alonso playing in midfield alongside Gerrard a lot.
Didn't Gerrard have his best ever season playing on the right?
I think as Souness implied, the problem with Gerrard playing centrally was a mental one. He always lacked the discipline, but when you had his pace, his energy, his range of skills, who wouldn't lack discipline? He needed to play where he wanted to play, which was often pretty much anywhere on the pitch.
Lucas: Tackling Decline
There was a lot of online bemusement regarding the selection of Lucas Leiva to face Southampton in the opening match of the season on Sunday, so I thought I’d take a quick look at his stats to see how he performed and what the trends are, particularly with regards to his tackling.
Firstly, a quick word on why I think he might have been selected to play. It’s important to note that Lucas was one of only four players who played in all eight of Liverpool’s pre-season games. Granted, Joe Allen, a definite rival for that spot, did too, but clearly the Brazilian appears to be one of the Reds’ more suitably prepared players at this point of the campaign, and that’s before you consider the things that we as fans aren’t privy to, namely how “fit” the players actually are.
However, when looking at the match stats after the game, one thing stood out to me like a sore thumb; Lucas didn’t attempt a single tackle. In the 159 league appearances he has made since the start of the 2008/09 season, Lucas has only failed to make a tackle on twelve occasions, and as he spent sixty-three minutes on the pitch against the Saints, this was his longest appearance without a tackle. I should also point out that for eight of the other eleven games, he was on the field for thirteen minutes or less, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that he didn’t make a tackle in those games.
At this point it’s important to remember what Opta’s definition of a tackle actually is:
Back in the days before his ACL injury, Lucas was a tackling machine though, averaging 5.3 per ninety minutes played in the Premier League (from summer 2008 until his injury in 2011); indeed I have written about that previously.
Yet in the time since, this figure has dropped to 4.9 per ninety, and if you exclude Liverpool’s 6-0 win at Newcastle in 2013 when he made a remarkable eleven tackles, Lucas’ post-ACL figures drop to 4.7 per ninety.
That may not sound like much of a difference, so perhaps a more focussed look will illustrate the point better. Lucas averaged 5.6 tackles per ninety minutes in the fifteen months prior to his serious injury, as he got better and better to the point that he was Liverpool’s player of the season, but his tackle rate is down to just 3.1 in the year 2014. Here is a breakdown of his tackle stats:
This downturn in tackle productivity is reflected in the Brazilian’s stats for being dribbled past too:
Notice how Lucas has been dribbled past almost as many times since his injury as he was before, despite only playing a little more than half as many minutes. In fairness to the Brazilian, this downturn in tackling hasn’t been entirely negative; this table shows his ratio of tackles to interceptions.
We can see that Mr Leiva makes a tackle or an interception at a consistent rate either side of his ACL injury (albeit 2013/14 was his least productive season on this front), and more importantly, the proportion of those that are interceptions has risen.
This makes sense given a common sense check; if you’d been out with a cruciate ligament injury, would you want to risk your knee in a tackle if you could regain the ball a different way? Perhaps this also explains why he gets dribbled past more, as maybe he is less willing to engage in a physical challenge since his long spell on the sidelines? This is pure speculation on my part, but it doesn’t seem beyond the realms of possibility.
However, if we look at the tackles to fouls ratio below, which is a stat I also used in my assessment of Emre Can, we can see that Lucas has declined over time to the point where he committed a foul for just under every two tackles he made last season. Not all fouls will be as a result of attempted tackles, but the majority will be and so this can provide a decent guideline.
His tackling is far most costly than it was, when it used to be his greatest strength, and if Lucas’ previously best asset is not there to a great extent any more, then it’s almost impossible to see a place for him in the team in the future. This is a shame considering the service he has given Liverpool, and the tremendous amount of criticism he managed to overcome in his early years, but there’s no room for sentiment at Anfield in the pursuit of their goals this season.
There was a lot of online bemusement regarding the selection of Lucas Leiva to face Southampton in the opening match of the season on Sunday, so I thought I’d take a quick look at his stats to see how he performed and what the trends are, particularly with regards to his tackling.
Firstly, a quick word on why I think he might have been selected to play. It’s important to note that Lucas was one of only four players who played in all eight of Liverpool’s pre-season games. Granted, Joe Allen, a definite rival for that spot, did too, but clearly the Brazilian appears to be one of the Reds’ more suitably prepared players at this point of the campaign, and that’s before you consider the things that we as fans aren’t privy to, namely how “fit” the players actually are.
However, when looking at the match stats after the game, one thing stood out to me like a sore thumb; Lucas didn’t attempt a single tackle. In the 159 league appearances he has made since the start of the 2008/09 season, Lucas has only failed to make a tackle on twelve occasions, and as he spent sixty-three minutes on the pitch against the Saints, this was his longest appearance without a tackle. I should also point out that for eight of the other eleven games, he was on the field for thirteen minutes or less, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that he didn’t make a tackle in those games.
At this point it’s important to remember what Opta’s definition of a tackle actually is:
A tackle is defined as where a player connects with the ball in ground challenge where he successfully takes the ball away from the man in possession.
A 50/50 where two players challenge for a ball that neither of them have under their control is considered to be a duel, and Lucas appeared to be involved in at least one of these against Southampton, but he didn’t make any (statistically defined) tackles.Back in the days before his ACL injury, Lucas was a tackling machine though, averaging 5.3 per ninety minutes played in the Premier League (from summer 2008 until his injury in 2011); indeed I have written about that previously.
Yet in the time since, this figure has dropped to 4.9 per ninety, and if you exclude Liverpool’s 6-0 win at Newcastle in 2013 when he made a remarkable eleven tackles, Lucas’ post-ACL figures drop to 4.7 per ninety.
That may not sound like much of a difference, so perhaps a more focussed look will illustrate the point better. Lucas averaged 5.6 tackles per ninety minutes in the fifteen months prior to his serious injury, as he got better and better to the point that he was Liverpool’s player of the season, but his tackle rate is down to just 3.1 in the year 2014. Here is a breakdown of his tackle stats:
This downturn in tackle productivity is reflected in the Brazilian’s stats for being dribbled past too:
Notice how Lucas has been dribbled past almost as many times since his injury as he was before, despite only playing a little more than half as many minutes. In fairness to the Brazilian, this downturn in tackling hasn’t been entirely negative; this table shows his ratio of tackles to interceptions.
We can see that Mr Leiva makes a tackle or an interception at a consistent rate either side of his ACL injury (albeit 2013/14 was his least productive season on this front), and more importantly, the proportion of those that are interceptions has risen.This makes sense given a common sense check; if you’d been out with a cruciate ligament injury, would you want to risk your knee in a tackle if you could regain the ball a different way? Perhaps this also explains why he gets dribbled past more, as maybe he is less willing to engage in a physical challenge since his long spell on the sidelines? This is pure speculation on my part, but it doesn’t seem beyond the realms of possibility.
However, if we look at the tackles to fouls ratio below, which is a stat I also used in my assessment of Emre Can, we can see that Lucas has declined over time to the point where he committed a foul for just under every two tackles he made last season. Not all fouls will be as a result of attempted tackles, but the majority will be and so this can provide a decent guideline.
His tackling is far most costly than it was, when it used to be his greatest strength, and if Lucas’ previously best asset is not there to a great extent any more, then it’s almost impossible to see a place for him in the team in the future. This is a shame considering the service he has given Liverpool, and the tremendous amount of criticism he managed to overcome in his early years, but there’s no room for sentiment at Anfield in the pursuit of their goals this season.
Interesting stuff. Is that from Rory Fitzgerald, occasionally to be seen on these forums?
Still don't get what Rodgers was playing at playing him and Stevie together, he really lost the plot a bit there similar to last year against Saints at Anfield with the 4 center backs starting, it's like he forgot what we are all about and what worked so well last season, with those 2 in midfield together it's impossible to play the way we usually play - quick, direct, high tempo, pacey, aggressive etc...
He ain't daft though and usually recognises when he has made a mistake.
He ain't daft though and usually recognises when he has made a mistake.
Lucas was chasing shadows. It's like men against an old man the way he struggled to get anywhere near a Southampton player. At this rate we might as well have Rossiter in for some experience. He surely can't be anymore static than Lucas. He can't even get close enough to fulfill his "foul near the edge of the box" quota
I bet it was people like you who were saying that Spearing was better than Lucas. I wish I could find that thread.
We had full backs on the bench that day.
Fuck knows, maybe there is something in the water when playing Saints at Anfield?
Modo, i like Lucas but he was absolute dog shit the other day, there is no denying it, Kopred is right, he was like a statue and when he did move he was very slow compared to other players, he was a spare part and offered absolutely nothing to the team.
I have regularly defended him as I had to defend Ronnie Whelan back in the day. Lucas was a vital cog in the team. I fear the term was is now accurate and want to see him sold or replaced with someone with quicker feet, better tackling and more pace.
Lucas is still good for us as a back up to Gerrard to play that DM position. So I wont sell him at all, he has his own difficulties but he is the best replacement we have if Gerrard gets injured. He wont be creative and visionary as Gerrard but imo he will do enough and we will always have Hendo and Lovren to play those cute long balls to Studge or Sterling.
It is just that playing Lucas and Gerrard together is such a noob thing to do. So Lucas is still good but not with Gerrard together but as a back up to Gerrard.
It is just that playing Lucas and Gerrard together is such a noob thing to do. So Lucas is still good but not with Gerrard together but as a back up to Gerrard.
At least Lucas doesn't try to pass across the back four every other match. I'm not convinced either of them should be playing in that position. It's got to be Can all day long. Gerrard a far second. Lucas in another team.
He played most of the CL games behind the striker with Alonso and Hamann behind him.
I think I need to watch that game again, I thought Gerrard was okay, but he's getting slated on here.
- Status
