Kneejerk Scapegoat

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47424.msg1422862#msg1422862 date=1320640364]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47424.msg1422854#msg1422854 date=1320635756]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422851#msg1422851 date=1320634704]
Here's a stat for you.

Only Newcastle have conceded fewer goals in the league than us. This is despite teams playing through us at will, apparently.

Here's another stat.

The only team in the top half of the table who have scored fewer is Swansea. We have scored 14 goals - half as many as Man Utd.

Man City have scored 39 goals this season. Their preferred CM pairing of Barry & Toure have contributed a grand total of 2 of those goals (the same as Adam & Lucas).

Now behave Neil - you're wrong.

Have we got a link to Ryan's video yet?
[/quote]

I'll put my hand up and say that stat has surprised me no end. I thought our defense had looked a bit shaky thus far in the season. I guess it's more relative - when we're only scoring half manu's total then every goal we concede becomes bloody important.

That said, Neil and Ryan are coming at this from different angles. Neil is trying to look for a solution within the entity that is LFC while Ryan is saying the whole concept of LFC is wrong just now and we need something external.

[/quote]

Not really mate.

I'm saying that focusing on the centre mid, as to be fair to Neil - most on here have, is a) wrong and b) pointless.

What I will say is wrong has been our transfer policy. I get that it's a long-term one, and not a short-term one. But this 'buy British' thing has seemingly come at the cost of forsaking on quality. Nobody can convince me that we culdn't have spent our money better.
[/quote]

You know that I largely agree with you on this mate - we've been discussing it and saying for the last 3 or 4 years. After our 2nd finish to the mancs we really had the opportunity to step up. We needed one more match winner (two would have been nice to cover injury) and didn't manage it; not necessarily Rafa's fault but he didn't help himself IMO.

I personally don't think we've made that many mistakes in the transfer policy; Carroll's is the only one that really gets me. I understand why Kenny was so keen to sign someone with Torres leaving and that the new owners saw it as an opportunity to make a statement. That said, I'd have held onto Torres whether he liked it or not. That 35m could have bought Sergio or several other options.

Otherwise I'm ok; could have been better but could also have been much worse.

Without taking away from the point of matchwinners which is 100% true, something else has gone wrong in the team. We have more quality than we did at the end of last season but we're not performing to the same level. I don't know if its the pressure but that team is much better than they're currently showing and I think the coaching staff have to have a good hard look at it or themselves.

 

[Fabio]

Only reason I've mentioned our CMs is great complete lack of mobility going forward from them/adam

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422851#msg1422851 date=1320634704]


Man City have scored 39 goals this season. Their preferred CM pairing of Barry & Toure have contributed a grand total of 2 of those goals (the same as Adam & Lucas).

[/quote]

So Barry and Toure have contributed the same as Adam.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47424.msg1422873#msg1422873 date=1320650882]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422851#msg1422851 date=1320634704]


Man City have scored 39 goals this season. Their preferred CM pairing of Barry & Toure have contributed a grand total of 2 of those goals (the same as Adam & Lucas).

[/quote]

So Barry and Toure have contributed the same as Adam.
[/quote]

So, after 11 games that outstanding CM of Toure has scored one more goal than the "anti-Brazillian" Lucas?

Just checking.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47424.msg1422874#msg1422874 date=1320652381]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47424.msg1422873#msg1422873 date=1320650882]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422851#msg1422851 date=1320634704]


Man City have scored 39 goals this season. Their preferred CM pairing of Barry & Toure have contributed a grand total of 2 of those goals (the same as Adam & Lucas).

[/quote]

So Barry and Toure have contributed the same as Adam.
[/quote]

So, after 11 games that outstanding CM of Toure has scored one more goal than the "anti-Brazillian" Lucas?

Just checking.
[/quote]

I prefer "painfully average" Lucas.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47424.msg1422875#msg1422875 date=1320652672]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47424.msg1422874#msg1422874 date=1320652381]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47424.msg1422873#msg1422873 date=1320650882]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422851#msg1422851 date=1320634704]


Man City have scored 39 goals this season. Their preferred CM pairing of Barry & Toure have contributed a grand total of 2 of those goals (the same as Adam & Lucas).

[/quote]

So Barry and Toure have contributed the same as Adam.
[/quote]

So, after 11 games that outstanding CM of Toure has scored one more goal than the "anti-Brazillian" Lucas?

Just checking.
[/quote]

I prefer "painfully average" Lucas.
[/quote]


I knew that would draw you out Rosco. 😀

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47424.msg1422859#msg1422859 date=1320638892]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422851#msg1422851 date=1320634704]
Here's a stat for you.

Only Newcastle have conceded fewer goals in the league than us. This is despite teams playing through us at will, apparently.

Here's another stat.

The only team in the top half of the table who have scored fewer is Swansea. We have scored 14 goals - half as many as Man Utd.

Man City have scored 39 goals this season. Their preferred CM pairing of Barry & Toure have contributed a grand total of 2 of those goals (the same as Adam & Lucas).

Now behave Neil - you're wrong.

Have we got a link to Ryan's video yet?
[/quote]

Thank you Stevie, thank you. Neil - please, just please.

[/quote]

who mentioned goals? certainly not me, how many goals did alonso and mash score?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=47424.msg1422870#msg1422870 date=1320647936]
Only reason I've mentioned our CMs is great complete lack of mobility going forward from them/adam
[/quote]


ding! ding! ding!

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47424.msg1422879#msg1422879 date=1320653490]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47424.msg1422859#msg1422859 date=1320638892]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422851#msg1422851 date=1320634704]
Here's a stat for you.

Only Newcastle have conceded fewer goals in the league than us. This is despite teams playing through us at will, apparently.

Here's another stat.

The only team in the top half of the table who have scored fewer is Swansea. We have scored 14 goals - half as many as Man Utd.

Man City have scored 39 goals this season. Their preferred CM pairing of Barry & Toure have contributed a grand total of 2 of those goals (the same as Adam & Lucas).

Now behave Neil - you're wrong.

Have we got a link to Ryan's video yet?
[/quote]

Thank you Stevie, thank you. Neil - please, just please.

[/quote]

who mentioned goals? certainly not me, how many goals did alonso and mash score?
[/quote]


Are you having a laugh Neil? Seriously?

You lambast the midfield that "every one just passes straight through them" and then focus on Lucas who's the DM yet you want us to believe that our paltry goals against stat has nothing to do with it. Seriously?

If we've got one of the tightest defenses in the league (and take out the Spurs debacle we'd have the tightest) then your comment that teams are passing straight through us is obvious nonsense. We did look open against Swansea - late on - but that was because the players were so frustrated and shocked at not scoring they started to press desperately.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47424.msg1422881#msg1422881 date=1320653888]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47424.msg1422879#msg1422879 date=1320653490]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47424.msg1422859#msg1422859 date=1320638892]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422851#msg1422851 date=1320634704]
Here's a stat for you.

Only Newcastle have conceded fewer goals in the league than us. This is despite teams playing through us at will, apparently.

Here's another stat.

The only team in the top half of the table who have scored fewer is Swansea. We have scored 14 goals - half as many as Man Utd.

Man City have scored 39 goals this season. Their preferred CM pairing of Barry & Toure have contributed a grand total of 2 of those goals (the same as Adam & Lucas).

Now behave Neil - you're wrong.

Have we got a link to Ryan's video yet?
[/quote]

Thank you Stevie, thank you. Neil - please, just please.

[/quote]

who mentioned goals? certainly not me, how many goals did alonso and mash score?
[/quote]


Are you having a laugh Neil? Seriously?

You lambast the midfield that "every one just passes straight through them" and then focus on Lucas who's the DM yet you want us to believe that our paltry goals against stat has nothing to do with it. Seriously?

If we've got one of the tightest defenses in the league (and take out the Spurs debacle we'd have the tightest) then your comment that teams are passing straight through us is obvious nonsense. We did look open against Swansea - late on - but that was because the players were so frustrated and shocked at not scoring they started to press desperately.
[/quote]

I didn't say we were conceeding goals for fun I said we look slow and weak through the middle and rearly dominate games in the middle of the park.
I wasn't talking about our central midfield scoring goals I was talking about our central midfield supporting attacks either with through ball or forward runs (to be fair adam does this).

basically in an ideal world I'd want two players in CM who are comfortable going forwards as they are shielding the defense. I look at henderson and see someone who is pretty ineffectual at right midfield so my hope is he is a better player through the middle. I think that lucas is the best holding midfielder at the club but if he were replaced by henderson would what we gain going forwards (which is pretty much nothing from lucas) outweigh/compensate for what we would lose defensively (due to losing a dedicated holding midfielder), I think it would but obviously others disagree.

 

[Ryan]

Neil - you are embarrassing yourself here. I'm trying to be polite too, dont make me go all angry.

Walk away from the keyboard.

 

[Rosco]

oh the irony ...

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47424.msg1422888#msg1422888 date=1320655460]
Neil - you are embarrassing yourself here. I'm trying to be polite too, dont make me go all angry.

Walk away from the keyboard.
[/quote]

no, you're me angry. how am I embarrassing myself? I want and expect every one in midfield to be as competent going forwards as they are in protecting and shielding the defense, I recognise the job lucas does but I think we would win more points by changing the balance of the team, how is that embarrassing myself?

it's fucks me off when people can't just argue my points rather that say 'oh neil, stop digging' it fucks me off no fucking end!!!

 

[StevieM]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47424.msg1422873#msg1422873 date=1320650882]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422851#msg1422851 date=1320634704]


Man City have scored 39 goals this season. Their preferred CM pairing of Barry & Toure have contributed a grand total of 2 of those goals (the same as Adam & Lucas).

[/quote]

So Barry and Toure have contributed the same as Adam.
[/quote]

Yes Ross Toure & Barry have contributed the same "amount of goals" as Adam.

The little bit in brackets - that you left out - is what I'm using as a comparison.

Incidentally Man City have conceded the same amount of goals as us.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422891#msg1422891 date=1320656250]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47424.msg1422873#msg1422873 date=1320650882]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422851#msg1422851 date=1320634704]


Man City have scored 39 goals this season. Their preferred CM pairing of Barry & Toure have contributed a grand total of 2 of those goals (the same as Adam & Lucas).

[/quote]

So Barry and Toure have contributed the same as Adam.
[/quote]

Yes Ross Toure & Barry have contributed the same "amount of goals" as Adam.

The little bit in brackets - that you left out - is what I'm using as a comparison.

Incidentally Man City have conceded the same amount of goals as us.


[/quote]

Let's just come out and say it Stevie.

Lucas offers us nothing. Absolutley nothing. He's a waste of a jersey.

 

[spider-Neil]

you can say 'it's not lucas' job to get forwards, offer himself a passing option high up the pitch, add numbers to attacks, make forward passes but simply put other central midfielders are doing this and their teams are reaping the benefits.

let stress again, lucas does his 'job' competently enough but imho we need more, he offers NOTHING going forwards, so again;

if we took him out of the team and replaced him with (for example) henderson and then added another attacker with the space freed up with the reshuffle - with what we gain going forwards would we lose too much going the other way?

it's a simple enough question that is being meet with 'we aren't conceeding', 'you're embarrassing yourself'.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47424.msg1422892#msg1422892 date=1320656804]

Let's just come out and say it Stevie.

Lucas offers us nothing. Absolutley nothing. He's a waste of a jersey.
[/quote]

A ridiculous post of course. Still, if you feel that way the same applies for Adam, Downing, Henderson, Johnson, Carroll.

 

[Rosco]

It does apply to Downing and Johnson too.

Henderson is one of the future so he gets a bye , Carroll despite being awful is our second highest scorer in all comps. Adam is doing okay.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Until we have the chance to buy a player or two, i just wish Kenny would play 3 in the middle.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47424.msg1422897#msg1422897 date=1320657668]
It does apply to Downing and Johnson too.

Henderson is one of the future so he gets a bye , Carroll despite being awful is our second highest scorer in all comps. Adam is doing okay.
[/quote]

"Doing okay" is exactly what many slag Lucas off for - being no more than average. He's average like Lucas. He has other skills but also other limitations. I've said on several occasions we need better than Lucas although, like Adam, has uses as a squad player. If you have a player like Lucas who is limited in his abilities then you should replace him with better. You should not surround him with players who have limitations themselves i.e. those listed. Saying that, all our players should be performing better than they are and, on Saturday, we lacked the very basic principles of pass and move. There was no movement. I watched Swansea closely in midfield - every time a player received the ball in the middle they had a least one or two players running to make space. When one of our players received the ball we just stood there like lemons. The lack of mobility in midfield reared it's head once again. It needs to change and fast.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47424.msg1422898#msg1422898 date=1320657776]
Until we have the chance to buy a player or two, i just wish Kenny would play 3 in the middle.
[/quote]

We need to do 'something'. When we score we aren't attacking/clinical enough to kill the game and at the same time we aren't solid enough to hold the lead. My suggestions are going in the attacking direction we could just as easily go in the other direction of adding another body in cm making it harder for teams to play through us, give a better shield to the defence and give the attackers a more solid platform to build attacks.

We need to do something as I don't think the current balance is right

 

[keniget]

I'm going to sit over on Neil's side of the fence - even though I've skimmed through things a bit.

It's not so much that we're conceding goals but conceding possession. At one point during the match yesterday the possession stats flashed up and it was 52-48 in our favour. That's not good enough at home against a team like Swansea. Now I know it's been better - much better even - in other games but I'm still of the opinion that we stand off teams and let the play a little bit too much these days.

To hear the commentators going on about giving credit to Norwich or Swansea for trying to play good football is awful to hear. They shouldn't get a fucking chance to play good football. Part of the problem is that we're not taking our chances and breaking their spirit and another part is that yeah, the midfield doesn't dominate games as much as they should. There is another thread talking about getting back to the ways of Rafa and when I saw the title the first thing I thought of was pressing high up the field and not giving teams any breathing space. I'll sign up to that.

I've read a few people talking about how deep our midfield was against Swansea. To some extent that was a deliberate tactic. We employed similar tactics to those I've seen Barca use at times - the two centre-backs, Srktel and Agger, went out wide and pushed the fullbacks up to the half-way line. Then one of Lucas or Adam dropped down into the middle to pick the ball up and almost play as part of a back three. This was to enable us to stretch the game out wide with our fullbacks and push men forward. The problems we had was that Lucas naturally sits deep and Adam likes to drop deep as well, so instead of having one player drop deep as was probably instructed, we often had two quite deep. That left no-one like Xavi or Iniesta (god forbid we have players of that calibre anyways) to dictate play further up the field. And we know for damn sure we can't rely on Downing or Henderson to do anything for us or Carroll in that regard. So it was left to a frustrated Suarez to do *everything*.

The whole thing was dsyfunctional and to varying degress it has been all season.

Yes, we've not taken our chances. Yes, we've bought the wrong players. But there are things we can do to stop making things quite as hard for ourselves as they have been.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=47424.msg1422902#msg1422902 date=1320658772]
I'm going to sit over on Neil's side of the fence - even though I've skimmed through things a bit.

It's not so much that we're conceding goals but conceding possession. At one point during the match yesterday the possession stats flashed up and it was 52-48 in our favour. That's not good enough at home against a team like Swansea. Now I know it's been better - much better even - in other games but I'm still of the opinion that we stand off teams and let the play a little bit too much these days.

To hear the commentators going on about giving credit to Norwich or Swansea for trying to play good football is awful to hear. They shouldn't get a fucking chance to play good football. Part of the problem is that we're not taking our chances and breaking their spirit and another part is that yeah, the midfield doesn't dominate games as much as they should. There is another thread talking about getting back to the ways of Rafa and when I saw the title the first thing I thought of was pressing high up the field and not giving teams any breathing space. I'll sign up to that.

I've read a few people talking about how deep our midfield was against Swansea. To some extent that was a deliberate tactic. We employed similar tactics to those I've seen Barca use at times - the two centre-backs, Srktel and Agger, went out wide and pushed the fullbacks up to the half-way line. Then one of Lucas or Adam dropped down into the middle to pick the ball up and almost play as part of a back three. The problems we had was that Lucas naturally sits deep and Adam likes to drop deep as well, so instead of having one player drop deep as was probably instructed, we often had two quite deep. That left no-one like Xavi or Iniesta (god forbid we have players of that calibre anyways) to dictate play further up the field. And we know for damn sure we can't rely on Downing or Henderson to do anything for us or Carroll in that regard. So it was left to a frustrated Suarez to do *everything*.

The whole thing was dsyfunctional and to varying degress it has been all season.

Yes, we've not taken our chances. Yes, we've bought the wrong players. But there are things we can do to stop making things quite as hard for ourselves as they have been.
[/quote]

Agree with all of this. I've already said many times when we play Adam and Lucas they both play too deep. It's not working

 

[keniget]

We need to start playing to our strengths and I'm unconvinced that a 4-4-2 is doing that. We don't have a naturally dominant central midfield pairing and we don't have fantastic attackers to compensate for that fact. So perhaps the best compromise is to make our midfield better and start utilizing the few quality attackers we have better. Perhaps a 4-3-3 with Bellamy out wide and further up the pitch than he would be in a 4-4-2.

It might be the case that given time a 4-4-2 will to start to work better and yield results, but I'm not sure Dalglish has that time. We're already falling off the pace (look at Spurs with a game in hand) and the vultures are beginning to circle. We've got two very tough games up next and the mood will be pretty bleak if we do badly.

 

[StevieM]

Because Neil, the point that you are not getting or failing to accept is that, despite all evidence to the contrary it's not about having 2 more mobile CM's that can attack as well defend.

We could pick up the CM's of any team in the country and it wouldn't make a difference.

We had Gerrard, Alonso & Mascherano filling those rolls and we still underachieved.

We underachieved not because our full backs weren't attacking enough or our centre backs weren't ball playing enough or our central midfield was too slow our immobile (Lucas & Mash were our central mid when we beat man Utd 4-1 at OT).

The problem is and has always been that our creative players who provide, width, movement, whatever, are shite. They've been shite for years - now they're just shite and expensive.

Putting Henderson into the centre doesn't change anything because we'll still be fielding the same shite in creative positions.

Thats the crux of it. That's the problem. Everything else is secondary.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422907#msg1422907 date=1320659650]

We could pick up the CM's of any team in the country and it wouldn't make a difference.

We had Gerrard, Alonso & Mascherano filling those rolls and we still underachieved.

[/quote]

1. Sorry mate have i misunderstood you here? Are you saying we could place any premier league sides CM into ours and it wouldn't make any difference in regards to how we are playing?

2. We might of underachieved, but it's no coincidence that when we had that midfield we were always making the CL (+ doing rather well in it).


*Yeah i obviously agree that we need more quality attacking players as well*

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47424.msg1422907#msg1422907 date=1320659650]
Because Neil, the point that you are not getting or failing to accept is that, despite all evidence to the contrary it's not about having 2 more mobile CM's that can attack as well defend.

We could pick up the CM's of any team in the country and it wouldn't make a difference.

We had Gerrard, Alonso & Mascherano filling those rolls and we still underachieved.

We underachieved not because our full backs weren't attacking enough or our centre backs weren't ball playing enough or our central midfield was too slow our immobile (Lucas & Mash were our central mid when we beat man Utd 4-1 at OT).

The problem is and has always been that our creative players who provide, width, movement, whatever, are shite. They've been shite for years - now they're just shite and expensive.

Putting Henderson into the centre doesn't change anything because we'll still be fielding the same shite in creative positions.

Thats the crux of it. That's the problem. Everything else is secondary.
[/quote]

I agree with you that our attacking players are underachieveing I don't agree with you that a reshuffle of our CM midfield would make no difference to how we play.
if we utilise players that are able to make forward passes, have the mobility to supoort the attackers then 'maybe' our attackers wont be so isolated and with passing options and decoys to drag players away maybe that yard of space will give them the time to be more clinical rather than snatching at the half chances they are being presented with.

I'm not making a scapegoat of lucas (honest) I'm saying if we fill the team with as many players who have ability going forwards (no I don't mean playing 11 strikers) then maybe we will have a easier time of breaking teams down, either than or play lucas with another holding midfielder, go into our shell and grind out wins. something has to be done because currently we are losing points hand over fist because the balance isn't right and swapping henderson for kuyt isn't going to address that imbalance.

 

[Sunny]

Better players in central positions improves the team. Same goes for the creative players. Can't see how anyone would think CM doesn't really matter

 

[Fabio]

Re: Re: Kneejerk Scapegoat

We're painfully average (bar Suarez ) in attack. However, other teams have this problem and play good football

Newcastle is an example

Ba - average
Gutierrez - average
Obertan - average
Etc etc

What the do have is a dynamic and mobile cm in cabaye. If you Gabe some one running (take note Charlie ) from deep it creates more space.

We played exclusively with Wing plays against Swansea. It's predictable.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47424.msg1422915#msg1422915 date=1320661169]
Better players in central positions improves the team. Same goes for the creative players. Can't see how anyone would think CM doesn't really matter
[/quote]

ryan and stevie are coming at this that the CM are allowing the team to conceed few goings, therefore they are doing their job and thus the blame lies with the attacking players who aren't killing the game off (you could just as easily counter the attacking players are giving us the lead and the CM are allowing the opposition to draw level thus losing as point, but that's way too simplistic).

I'm coming at this from this angle;
if you play CM with attacking ability and mobility who can get forwards then you can push higher up the pitch,

that will add numbers to the attackers that than relying on two wide players to cut teams open,

the attacks increase in frequency because the entire midfield is involved and with more chances being created even our profligate attackers should be able to put a few of them away.

of course this is going to leave us more open with more space behind us, is the oppertunity to score more and kill teams worth the risk.
bottom line I don't think our current CM is good enough or at least I don't think the balance is right.