Benitez to be Newcastle Manager..

[Hansern]

This thread now reminds me of the upteenth threads we've had about Rafa over the years.
Same arguments back and forth.

Macca hit the nail on the head about Rafa and Ged.

I'll always think highely of Rafa for making the club a force in the Champions league. Signing some great players, developing the acadamy and giving us some truely fantastic moments on the football pitch by showing some excellent tactical management.

For all the good he did and the results he achieved, I still feel he became his own worst enemy in the end.
Tinkering with the squad and being extremely stubborn with his ideas.

The decisions to get rid of Hyypia and Alonso were very bad. The way he let Benayoun go.
His last 4 transfer windows were absolutly shocking.
Aquilani and Kyrigiakos for Alonso and Hyypia. Dossena for Riise. Not signing a replacement for Keane.
Signing some horrendous free transfers. Jovanovic, Degen and Voronin.

In the end, for all he achieved. He left us with a bloated wage bill, increased with over 100% since Ged left and a squad losing its quality players replaced by expencive average players.

 

[peterhague]

Hyypia was about 36 when he left!!! He'd have gone the year after anyway. It barely merits a mention.

The wage bill increased because *all* wage bills in football increased, and also because we were operating as a top CL club, necessitating a bigger squad and bigger rewards for the players.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Peter - what did Rafa do wrong?

 

[peterhague]

Peter - what did Rafa do wrong?

Among other things, IMO:

1. bad signings
2. too many 'free' players on expensive contracts where we could surely have substituted youth players for them
3. too much tinkering with formations, ways of playing etc. It wasn't really until mid-way through 07/08 that he settled on Gerrard in the hole behind a pacy striker, and that shouldn't have taken so long.
4. I think he was rather too distant with players
5. I can't deny that he was unable to create a good rapport with the press, although I never understand why. Ultimately though he has to bear responsibility for the result.
6. Keane and Aquilani in consecutive summers were specially exasperating because both seemed best suited to Gerrard's role. Tbh I think he'd liked to have been able to sell Gerrard in 2005. I think he found him more trouble than he was worth.
7. Alonso - this one is debateable. But again, like (5), I think he has to answer for the results.

 

[refugee]

Just like we thank Roy Evans and Graeme Souness for McManaman, Fowler, Owen etc ... Oh

You've got to give credit for building the foundation, but those players aren't here because of Rafa, just like Gerrard wasn't here because of Ged.

McManaman and Fowler (and Redknapp) were King Kenny and I give him lots of credit for them. Likewise, Evans and Owen

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Among other things, IMO:

1. bad signings
2. too many 'free' players on expensive contracts where we could surely have substituted youth players for them
3. too much tinkering with formations, ways of playing etc. It wasn't really until mid-way through 07/08 that he settled on Gerrard in the hole behind a pacy striker, and that shouldn't have taken so long.
4. I think he was rather too distant with players
5. I can't deny that he was unable to create a good rapport with the press, although I never understand why. Ultimately though he has to bear responsibility for the result.
6. Keane and Aquilani in consecutive summers were specially exasperating because both seemed best suited to Gerrard's role. Tbh I think he'd liked to have been able to sell Gerrard in 2005. I think he found him more trouble than he was worth.
7. Alonso - this one is debateable. But again, like (5), I think he has to answer for the results.

I thought he was ok with the press actually (5) - it was that 'facts' presser that kinda caused him issues, though he didn't really say anything that most people didn't already think.

 

[Hansern]

Hyypia played 53 games for Leverkusen after he left and was one of the top defenders in the Bundesliga.
Replacing him with a very average Kyrigiakos was a bad move.

The wage bill would obviously increase as "all" wage bills increased. Thats beside the point though.
His last 4 transfer windows increased the wage bill with 25 mill. One, 1, player is left and thats Johnson.
Signing very average squad players on extremely high wages resulted in a bloated wage bill. Resulting in us not getting value for money and having less quality than what we could expect for 114 mill.
I e Voronin 60k, Degen 40k and loads of other players we're stuck still paying some of their wages.

Thats the point.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

McManaman and Fowler (and Redknapp) were King Kenny and I give him lots of credit for them. Likewise, Evans and Owen

I'm not saying the managers aren't to thank for giving them the op etc - but King Kenny didn't do anything different within our club to allow someone like Fowler or McManaman to come up the youth ranks. You get blessed with incredible talent every few years. It's bringing in the foreign kiddies, or the other youngsters in the Isles (McLaughlin, Ibe, Sterling etc) that deserves credits.

 

[peterhague]

Hyypia played 53 games for Leverkusen after he left and was one of the top defenders in the Bundesliga.
Replacing him with a very average Kyrigiakos was a bad move. Hyypia simply wouldn't have played those games for us, though. He wanted them and Benitez didn't feel able to give him them. I agree with that stance - better to perhaps replace a player slightly too early than wait until he's too old and be left high and dry. Planning for the future and all that.

The wage bill would obviously increase as "all" wage bills increased. Thats beside the point though. HOW???
His last 4 transfer windows increased the wage bill with 25 mill. One, 1, player is left and thats Johnson.
Signing very average squad players on extremely high wages resulted in a bloated wage bill. Resulting in us not getting value for money and having less quality than what we could expect for 114 mill.
I e Voronin 60k, Degen 40k and loads of other players we're stuck still paying some of their wages.

Thats the point.

The wage thing is highly debateable. Was he in charge of setting wages? Highly doubtful. If he was, he shouldn't have been. Blame the people who gave him that power (again, if he had it).

I blame him for the false economy of free signings on expensive wages, but not for any general high wage level of the other players.

 

[gkmacca]

I'm not saying the managers aren't to thank for giving them the op etc - but King Kenny didn't do anything different within our club to allow someone like Fowler or McManaman to come up the youth ranks. You get blessed with incredible talent every few years. It's bringing in the foreign kiddies, or the other youngsters in the Isles (McLaughlin, Ibe, Sterling etc) that deserves credits.

To be fair to Kenny he went out of his way to make sure Fowler joined the club, and Fowler always acknowledges that. There's obviously a huge difference between Ged and Rafa when it comes to attitude to local young talent - even given the stand-off with Heighway it still amazes me that Houllier, France's great champion of youth development, seemed so resigned to the well drying up at Liverpool.

 

[refugee]

I'm not saying the managers aren't to thank for giving them the op etc - but King Kenny didn't do anything different within our club to allow someone like Fowler or McManaman to come up the youth ranks. You get blessed with incredible talent every few years. It's bringing in the foreign kiddies, or the other youngsters in the Isles (McLaughlin, Ibe, Sterling etc) that deserves credits.

Completely and utterly disagree. Kenny did everything in his power (in both stints) to encourage youngsters to sign for Liverpool. Bringing them into the first team training sessions, bringing them to meet players when they were on trial / signing, bringing them to games, even giving them lifts home in his car. Playing the youngsters also helps, as fathers / agents see that and encourages their youngster to sign for the club that will do the most for them. Under Geds reign, the youngster signed for Everton because they had players playing in the first team squad when we were signing utter shit from abroad like Kippe and that crap keeper from Monaco. Part of this might be the boards fault (moving the youths to Melwood so they were training separately from the first team, but Ged oversaw that).

You are doing Kenny (and Rafa) a enormous disservice.


Rafa gets little credit for this type of work, but when he came in our youth system was in tatters. There was almost no-one worth promoting (although he played Warnock and he got an England cap). When Rafa left he had just blooded Kelly, Robinson and we had a number of other youngster elsewhere in the system that were too young to play but have now started to get into the team (Suso, Sterling, Adorjan, Wisdom etc etc.) and if even one of them makes it, it will be worth the investment.

 

[mark1975]

I don't believe for one minute that Rafa didn't know what wages were being put on the table for players, when it would have had a significant bearing on his transfer budget, an amount he was all too keen to make known when he didn't find it sufficient.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

To be fair to Kenny he went out of his way to make sure Fowler joined the club, and Fowler always acknowledges that. There's obviously a huge difference between Ged and Rafa when it comes to attitude to local young talent - even given the stand-off with Heighway it still amazes me that Houllier, France's great champion of youth development, seemed so resigned to the well drying up at Liverpool.

I remember reading that in Fowler's book - yes, I take that back.

Do you give Evans or Ged credit for Stevie G? Would he have come through our club with other managers? Of course ... That's my point. The local talent isn't because of a manager, they're coming up because of who we are.

Rafa gets little credit for this type of work, but when he came in our youth system was in tatters. There was almost no-one worth promoting (although he played Warnock and he got an England cap). When Rafa left he had just blooded Kelly, Robinson and we had a number of other youngster elsewhere in the system that were too young to play but have now started to get into the team (Suso, Sterling, Adorjan, Wisdom etc etc.) and if even one of them makes it, it will be worth the investment.

I've given Rafa plenty of credit for the youth system (and will continue to do so) - but again, I may not be making my point clearly. When was the last time the Mancs brought in a top top talent from the Manchester area? And it's not like Ferguson doesn't promote that like crazy. If you're bringing in talent from outside the city or the country, then you deserve credit. But the kids from Liverpool who are coming up would have most likely come up with us regardless the manager (at least that's what I think).

The young shite keeper was Luzi I think, and I can't remember the last time we had a youth keeper who was rated very highly.

 

[Hansern]

The wage thing is highly debateable. Was he in charge of setting wages? Highly doubtful. If he was, he shouldn't have been. Blame the people who gave him that power (again, if he had it).

I blame him for the false economy of free signings on expensive wages, but not for any general high wage level of the other players.

Kyrigiakos played 49 games for us in the same periode. I know who I'd want of the two.

How? I just explained it. By signing very average players on massive wages. Free transfers and back up goalkeepers for a start. The squad was bloated with players who didnt add anything to the team besides costing us loads of money.

A natural development of wages and increase in the total wage bill is fine. But thats not the key issue here. Its when you're adding the wrong players on high wages thats the problem.

So, he only targeted the average and shite players? But we should blame Hicks and Gillette for agreeing to pay them stupid wages aswell?

 

[refugee]

I remember reading that in Fowler's book - yes, I take that back.
Do you give Evans or Ged credit for Stevie G? Would he have come through our club with other managers? Of course ... That's my point. The local talent isn't because of a manager, they're coming up because of who we are.

Yes I do. Ged has to be given credit for giving him his debut and Evans and his staff (Heighway) have to be given credit for developing him. Stevie was offered trials at multiple clubs and prior to signing for us, so someone obviously had to put the hours in to sign with him. If I remember correctly from his book, Utd and Everton both wanted him.

I remember reading that in Fowler's book - yes, I take that back.
I've given Rafa plenty of credit for the youth system (and will continue to do so) - but again, I may not be making my point clearly. When was the last time the Mancs brought in a top top talent from the Manchester area? And it's not like Ferguson doesn't promote that like crazy. If you're bringing in talent from outside the city or the country, then you deserve credit. But the kids from Liverpool who are coming up would have most likely come up with us regardless the manager (at least that's what I think).

I don't think so, as evidence by the fact Everton have brought through lots of local players in the same time period. We should have been competing to sign Rooney et al. but we didn't for some reason. Fowler, McManaman, and Carra were all Everton supporters, but previous management regimes managed to get them to sign for our academy.

The young shite keeper was Luzi I think, and I can't remember the last time we had a youth keeper who was rated very highly.

Bouzanis was probably the last highly rated one. Maybe the Welsh bloke, again can't remember his name

 

[peterhague]

Kyrigiakos played 49 games for us in the same periode. I know who I'd want of the two.

How? I just explained it. By signing very average players on massive wages. Free transfers and back up goalkeepers for a start. The squad was bloated with players who didnt add anything to the team besides costing us loads of money.

A natural development of wages and increase in the total wage bill is fine. But thats not the key issue here. Its when you're adding the wrong players on high wages thats the problem.

So, he only targeted the average and shite players? But we should blame Hicks and Gillette for agreeing to pay them stupid wages aswell?

Whether Kyrgiakos ended up playing more than expected is beside the point. The point, rather, is that Benitez felt he would only be able to give Sami a similar amount of games as he'd had in that last season - he was a clear 4th choice by that point. Sami felt he wanted more so moved to get it. I really don't think it's anything to complain about: again, he was 36 when he left!

I've already said I think he signed too many average squaddies when we probably could've substituted young players for them.

I've never seen any proper analysis proving that he systematically overpaid in terms of wages, beyond those that subsidised 'free' transfers. Which players? What were other CL clubs paying for similar players? What power did he have to determine wages? Why did he have that power, and whose fault was it?

 

[Hansern]

I cant be bothered with it tbh. I think Hyypia decided to leave when Rafa left him out of the CL squad.
We lost a dominant figure in the team/dressing room and got a shite Greek in return.

Degen, Cavalieri, Voronin, Dossena, Aquilani, Kyrigiakos, Pennant, itandje, Jovanovic for a start. Thats probably 500k a week in wages just there.
No other CL club would be buying those players bar maybe Aqua.

And all the youngsters we signed were also on decent wages: Paletta, Leto, Huth, El Zhar, Insua etc etc

 

[localny]

The parallels between the two in many ways are uncanny as Molby pointed out.
Ged was clearly the brighter of the two, less manipulative and egotistical, and a much better man manager. He clearly had much more rebuilding to do than Rafa, he left so much dross that Rafa managed to win the CL with it, like it or not, that was Ged's team.

Regards

You're letting your low view of Rafa cloud that one. Houllier got to the CL and always underperformed - creamed in the CL by the lower clubs. Remember v Leverkusen when he subbed in Smicer for Hammann and we collapsed and got knocked out. On that comparison alone, it should be clear, what the difference in level was.

 

[Leo]

I also remember getting knocked out of the Champions League with 7 points from a group containing Lyon,Fiorentina and Debrecen.

 

[Markeh]

The year we signed the greek our net spend was negative wasn't it? I don't think Rafa necessarily wanted him but after spending big on other positions and the money problems at the club it was the compromise he decided to make, signing a center half on the cheap.

 

[Modo]

I remember two CL finals and what, three semi's too?
How many times did we get to the final with Houllier? Well, except for the time "his" players got him there.

 

[Hansern]

The year we signed the greek our net spend was negative wasn't it? I don't think Rafa necessarily wanted him but after spending big on other positions and the money problems at the club it was the compromise he decided to make, signing a center half on the cheap.

It was, but I think that was largely down to the huge fee we got for Xabi.
We sold Alonso and Arbeloa. Bought Johnson and Aqua.

Released Hyypia on a free and bought Kyrigiakos for 1,5 mill.

 

[Markeh]

It was, but I think that was largely down to the huge fee we got for Xabi.
We sold Alonso and Arbeloa. Bought Johnson and Aqua.

Released Hyypia on a free and bought Kyrigiakos for 1,5 mill.

I see your point but it's a little unfair to bash Rafa for Hyypia leaving, he wasn't prepared to accept the possibility of not being an automatic first choice and the greek was brought in for that exact purpose. Hindsight says Hyypia would've got a load of games if he stayed but he didn't want to chance it and Rafa couldn't guarantee anything.

 

[Hansern]

I see your point but it's a little unfair to bash Rafa for Hyypia leaving, he wasn't prepared to accept the possibility of not being an automatic first choice and the greek was brought in for that exact purpose. Hindsight says Hyypia would've got a load of games if he stayed but he didn't want to chance it and Rafa couldn't guarantee anything.

Yeah, I'm maybe a bit unfair to Rafa in regards to Hyypia leaving. But his decision to include Degen instead of Hyypia in the CL squad is still an awful decision.
And imho that was one of the factors to why Hyypia felt he couldnt get enough games.

 

[Markeh]

Yeah, I'm maybe a bit unfair to Rafa in regards to Hyypia leaving. But his decision to include Degen instead of Hyypia in the CL squad is still an awful decision.
And imho that was one of the factors to why Hyypia felt he couldnt get enough games.

I can't argue with that Degen shouldn't be named ahead of anyone with all four limbs, Rafa was a bit odd like that at times.

 

[peekay]

Well Houllier was very professional indeed in his early years. He professionalised the whole club. To be fair to both we shouldn't compare the early years of one with the later years of the other, or vice versa. There's both a Good Ged and Bad Ged and a Good Rafa and Bad Rafa. The early years of both strike me as pretty similar in terms of standards.

Good post

Now that time has passed I prefer to remember both of them as good men who did a lot for our club. They had their limitations which were exposed during their last two years. We can sit and argue till for another 10 years as to the actual reason for it. Was it their fault or was it the environment the club found itself in. Who knows.

But both of them made an important contribution to this club. They embraced what this club was all about and were excellent ambassadors for the club, the community and the city of Liverpool. Something Roy Hodgson would never have been able to do even if he was manager of liverpool for 10000 years.

They gave me some of my happiest memories over the last 12 years.


View: http://youtu.be/3BFW3L3FSps


I was upset when both of them left and passionately argued for keeping Rafa when he was sacked. However now that time has passed I believe both of them left at the right time. Both us and Rafa should move on and look forward. Let us remember the good times and be happy and grateful for what they have both contributed to this club.

 

[Judge Jules]

I can't argue with that Degen shouldn't be named ahead of anyone with all four limbs, Rafa was a bit odd like that at times.

One limb would probably be enough to get you a better player than that waste of oxygen Degen.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Now that time has passed I prefer to remember both of them as good men who did a lot for our club.

That's the bottom line.

 

[Hansern]

7 league games in 2 years. 40k a week and a sign on fee. Fuck me.

 

[Judge Jules]

Who, Degen? Holy smoke. 😡