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Benitez to be Newcastle Manager..

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True, well maybe.
When a miracle occurs in a manager's first season the way it did in 2005 you automatically get afforded time unless you're Chelsea.
I enjoyed us being feared more than most in Europe. We didn't have that since the eighties, and nor have we had it since Rafa's final season.
We can always use the domestic league to critcise Rafa (and Gerard) but he gave us something we didn't imagine possible and for that he deserves more credit than any other manager since Kenny's first reign. At least for me. Vlad?

Well there's the crux of the answer about Ged, he didn't get 5 years just because he said he had a 5 year plan. He got it because he put us back on the map, won silverware and finished 2nd. And he deserves credit for that, not mocking because it wasn't the Champions League. Similar to the way Bob continued and eclipsed the good work and foundations that Shankly started, they both deserve the credit in helping stabilise the club and establishing it's reputation again in Europe. Neither without their faults, which like with many managers, eventually became their undoing. They're the best two managers we've had at the club since Kenny's original stint and about as close as we've got, all be it fleetingly, to getting back near the top of the pack.
 
Tough to say, really. I'll always maintain that he'd have had significantly more to spend, so just on that basis, more successful. I think the state of the squad in 1999 was fairly similar to that in 2004, bearing in mind Owen, Carragher, Murphy, and Gerrard were just emerging.
 
And he deserves credit for that, not mocking because it wasn't the Champions League.

Who hasn't given him credit and who has mocked him? Maybe I've missed it, but all I've seen is that people rate Rafa slightly higher. That's not to say that Houllier didn't have some success, just that Rafa had more. At the end of the day, they both had fairly average success as Liverpool managers go, but both had more success than others in the last 20 years(obviously). Rafa is slightly above Houllier for me.

I think some are trying to create arguments here when there shouldn't really be any.
 
Who hasn't given him credit and who has mocked him? Maybe I've missed it, but all I've seen is that people rate Rafa slightly higher. That's not to say that Houllier didn't have some success, just that Rafa had more. At the end of the day, they both had fairly average success as Liverpool managers go, but both had more success than others in the last 20 years(obviously). Rafa is slightly above Houllier for me.

I think some are trying to create arguments here when there shouldn't really be any.

Oh no they're not.
 
Who hasn't given him credit and who has mocked him? Maybe I've missed it, but all I've seen is that people rate Rafa slightly higher. That's not to say that Houllier didn't have some success, just that Rafa had more. At the end of the day, they both had fairly average success as Liverpool managers go, but both had more success than others in the last 20 years(obviously). Rafa is slightly above Houllier for me.

I think some are trying to create arguments here when there shouldn't really be any.

Read Peter's posts mate.
 
Read Peter's posts mate.

I have, and haven't really noticed any mocking, well no more than Peter usually puts in a post.

He's sticking up for Rafa, who gets too much bashing on here and being a little harsh on Houllier. You're sticking up for Houllier, who gets too much bashing on here, and being a little harsh on Rafa. At the end of the day, for me, you're both right and wrong in equal enough measures.
 
Where have I mocked him?

Modo has been talking bollocks throughout the thread, and you've just about managed begrudged acknowledgement while playing down most of what he did, and bigging up what Rafa did (no surprise there), the money argument being the perfect example.


But secondly I really don't think Houllier deserves to be in that company. Personally I never thought he was up to that much - the main caveat being how much his illness changed him, which we can never really know. He had a reasonable amount of success, but I still don't think people realise quite the scale of his spending, and he was lucky to have Gerrard emerge on his watch. And the football was often unwatchable.

Maybe only Houllier could take a team to Barca for the first time in 25 years and make you want to go to sleep.

I barely remember us going past the halfway line at the Nou Camp in 2001. Ultimately it wokred, so that's all that really matters, but it was a pussy's way to play.

Caution is good, utter fucking negative cowardice.... well let's just say it worked that time. Barca weren't even a particularly good side at that point, certainly not in the same league as the one Benitez beat 2-1 in 2007.

and let's not forget this patronising bullshit:

Well the things is certain people seriously dislike Rafa, even hate him, so it's not really a rational debate. I suppose what annoys me most is why that same treatment never seems to get meted out to other, inferior, ex-managers as well. I think the answer is probably that people really resent that some fans love him, and so they take it out on him.
 
Modo has been talking bollocks throughout the thread, and you've just about managed begrudged acknowledgement while playing down most of what he did, and bigging up what Rafa did (no surprise there), the money argument being the perfect example.


But secondly I really don't think Houllier deserves to be in that company. Personally I never thought he was up to that much - the main caveat being how much his illness changed him, which we can never really know. He had a reasonable amount of success, but I still don't think people realise quite the scale of his spending, and he was lucky to have Gerrard emerge on his watch. And the football was often unwatchable.

Maybe only Houllier could take a team to Barca for the first time in 25 years and make you want to go to sleep.

I barely remember us going past the halfway line at the Nou Camp in 2001. Ultimately it wokred, so that's all that really matters, but it was a pussy's way to play.

Caution is good, utter fucking negative cowardice.... well let's just say it worked that time. Barca weren't even a particularly good side at that point, certainly not in the same league as the one Benitez beat 2-1 in 2007.

and let's not forget this patronising bullshit:

Well the things is certain people seriously dislike Rafa, even hate him, so it's not really a rational debate. I suppose what annoys me most is why that same treatment never seems to get meted out to other, inferior, ex-managers as well. I think the answer is probably that people really resent that some fans love him, and so they take it out on him.


It's all true, or at least fair. We *were* extremely negative in that match. He did spend way more than people (you included) realise(d). A lot of people on this site *do* seriously dislike Benitez, way more than Houllier.
 
It's all moments. Houllier took Didi off in Europe when we were winning. We lost. Rafa brought him on when we were losing. We won. The Kaiser holds the key!
 
And you were giving out for Peter mocking Houllier? You're both at it

I'm not calling it "pussy's play", or saying he "wasn't upto much", or calling him a "coward" am I?

If Peter wants to toss about criticism's about Ged's brand of football that ultimately got results, that's fine though. Even though Rafa was equally adept at trying to churn out results when he had to - and trying to churn out results when he should have just let his team off the leash. Houllier got lucky having Gerrard come through, but Rafa having Gerrard at his peak counts for nothing?

Whatever.
 
Can we not just agree they were both shit and didn't win us the league?
 
Shit is a little harsh. They both brought us some good times, but neither managed to do what we wanted them to do(win the league). They were both ok.

Pretty much. The initial playing down of Houllier in this thread, and the bigging up of Rafa by comparison was laughable, that's why I got involved.
 
I'm not calling it "pussy's play", or saying he "wasn't upto much", or calling him a "coward" am I?

If Peter wants to toss about criticism's about Ged's brand of football that ultimately got results, that's fine though. Even though Rafa was equally adept at trying to churn out results when he had to - and trying to churn out results when he should have just let his team off the leash. Houllier got lucky having Gerrard come through, but Rafa having Gerrard at his peak counts for nothing?

Whatever.


I didn't call him a coward. Can you not keep referring to things I didn't say?

Personally I don't want Liverpool playing like we did (twice) at the Nou Camp under Houllier. I don't like it, and tbh I don't think it's right for a club of our size. Football isn't *just* about results by any means for me - there has to be a certain pride and courage in how you approach a game. Fine if you're ok with it, it's just my opinion.
 
No one will ever agree over this issue and I can't be arsed with it. Ultimately both managers brought us a good chunk of trophies. Some are worth more than others, some brought multiple in one season.

Neither won us the league and because of that 10 year period between them both, United caught us up and surpassed us.

They're on a par with souness and Evans in the league.

And I thought the league was supposedly our bead and butter?
 
And I thought the league was supposedly our bead and butter?


I've always wondered about this quote. When Shankly said it, it was obviously true, but nowadays I can't help but wonder if Shankly would still agree with it. Shankly wanted Liverpool to be the best and nowadays you need to win in Europe to be considered the best.

Obviously winning the league helps, but I don't think it is the be all and end all that it was back in Shanks day. He was also a very forward thinking man and I think he would have acknowledged that if he was around today.
 
I've always wondered about this quote. When Shankly said it, it was obviously true, but nowadays I can't help but wonder if Shankly would still agree with it. Shankly wanted Liverpool to be the best and nowadays you need to win in Europe to be considered the best.

Obviously winning the league helps, but I don't think it is the be all and end all that it was back in Shanks day. He was also a very forward thinking man and I think he would have acknowledged that if he was around today.
Ultimately you want to be the best in Europe, buy cup competitions don't actually show that. It's dependent on myriad things in a match.

The league is more a fair representation of where you are in your own country. If our country supposedly has the best league, then we should have the best team.

It's harder to fluke a league win than a cup win.
 
I don't know refugee .... Porto won the CL, are they considered anywhere near the best? Can they attract the best talent in Europe? Monaco almost won the CL, the only thing that is making them attractive now is $$$.
 
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