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Assists and goals - what's needed and from who?

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Wiberg

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This was for the Lucas thread but I think we need an overall discussion about what to expect from our players in regards to assists and goals

The idea is a discussion about all players but I did Lucas. A few observations about Lucas that others here might explore deeper so we can get a better understanding of his potential.

He is ace off the ball. He runs into all the right areas and he directs his sidekicks where to cover etc.. He wins the ball, he tackles. I don't think we can get a better player at HM for the price. It's really good value for money. This I think we all agree on. So the interesting question is if he the tools to improve the areas where we need more from a HM, isn't it? Some might even argue it's not needed which is only interesting.

He has absolutely no confidence in terms of dribbling or in any form carrying the ball forward. It's all about the pass. This makes him predictable. He get's more space as the match progresses because there is little reason to apply pressure on a player like him that always opts for the easy pass sideways. If he could get the confidence back and carry the ball at times it would make more room for others and make us more difficult to handle. He is so focused on not making stupid mistakes on the ball which is obviously important but imagine if he could use the space a little better. Looking at the player we got in 2007 I think the ability is there.

On the final third he looks for the easy pass to the side but interesting enough he connects the deep passes almost every time he tries down the field to Coutinho, Gerrard and Sterling. At about 4:50 into the compilation (in the Lucas Thread page 5) he wins the ball just outside the box and immediately throws it back wide to Moreno instead of going for the more interesting option of carrying the ball towards the box and create something with Gerrard or Coutinho. It's typical Lucas. It's a Volvo. Boxy but safe. Being shoehorned into a HM has made him abandon any and all creative approach to the game in terms of risk and technical football and I would love to see him reach a level of confidence where he started to connect the hard passes and took a run with the ball. Using the space he is often allowed (!) by the opponent. If he managed to take a risk and got past a player and got away with it he could many interesting situations further up field. The big question is if the ability is there to change and get more creative. I don't know - but I think it's needed from that position if we are to grow into a serious challenge.

Looking at the teams winning titles the past 10 years I think it's pretty clear most had the balance of players who could all contribute going forward in some aspect, providing game winning assists and goals. It differs from game to game who has the space. When one player is marked out of the game others can step up and use the space they are gifted because of that. In some ways that's what happened to us last half of the season. The ability to, as a team, claim the space gifted to you by players like Suarez and Sturridge was grabbed magnificently by players like Henderson and Sterling. The further up field the better but it's vital that all players have the capability to claim space and use it creatively.

So the conclusion, for me at least, in regards to progress: We need assists and even the odd goal from all players involved from the HM/DM and wingbacks and forward to mount any serious title challenge in the future. We need the CB's to clock in a few goals on the corners as well. It all adds up!

I hope that Lucas can find the confidence to create more because I actually think the ability is there.
 
What the fuck is a HM?

HM - Holding Midfielder - DM - Defensive Midfielder. It's a bit confusing; in Spain they don't use the HM term. They only have DM's. So the definition is blurry. When Xavi had Scholes in his dreamteam he was placed as a HM (alone) but called a DM. In Spain they field two players side by side and call them DM's even if one lays deeper like Busquets comapared to Rakitic just to give an example.
 
Super post and I agree completely. Good observation about the space other teams are leaving for Lucas to run into – if he did accept the invitation from time to time, we would be more dynamic and dangerous as a team with him in the side. I see some encouraging signs with him, I think this safety-first approach has been drummed into him endlessly by Rafa, but working under Rodgers (who even tried him in a more advanced position at times) might cause him to come out of his shell somewhat.

The way he opened up his body for that rocket of a shot vs Sunderland was something I haven't seen from Lucas in more or less forever. He has the skill, the reason he is not using it is psychological.




HM is confusing, most people here call it DM. Probably because of Footie Manager.
 
I'm quifing coz I'm on my phone, what have I missed? Is there a massive sticky on the footy forum?
 
Yes we definately need goals and assists.

From who?

Oh. Deffo our football players.
 
I think he should be compared to Alonso. He has much more freedom in this system than Mascher or Didi ever had.


Alonso got 19 goals and 28 assists in 210 appearances. He was also the second best midfielder we have had in the last 20 years, so I wouldn't necessarily use him as the benchmark.

The point was that Mascher, who is often considered to be the best DM we've had in that period, didn't score or assist as much as Lucas does.
 
Alonso got 19 goals and 28 assists in 210 appearances. He was also the second best midfielder we have had in the last 20 years, so I wouldn't necessarily use him as the benchmark.

The point was that Mascher, who is often considered to be the best DM we've had in that period, didn't score or assist as much as Lucas does.

I hear you but wouldn't you say that Mascher was sitting deeper than Lucas. He certainly did compared to the current system. In many ways he is on even par with Henderson when we are in the ball.

Icertainly think we should expect more going forward from that position.
 
I hear you but wouldn't you say that Mascher was sitting deeper than Lucas. He certainly did compared to the current system. In many ways he is on even par with Henderson when we are in the ball.

I certainly think we should expect more going forward from that position.

I'd say it was actually the other way around - Mascherano was often pushing up and marauding further in front, like how Momo was. However, he'd be able to scramble back and cover because he had so much stamina, energy and commitment on the pitch.

This, for example, is typical Mascherano for me:

 
I hear you but wouldn't you say that Mascher was sitting deeper than Lucas. He certainly did compared to the current system. In many ways he is on even par with Henderson when we are in the ball.

Icertainly think we should expect more going forward from that position.


I disagree, but even so, the numbers are negligible to me. I don't expect or demand assists and goals from that position.

I've said from day 1 (and taken abuse for it) that, at his best, Lucas can be a lot like Didi. Reading the play, breaking up opposition attacks, keeping the ball, managing the pace of the game, etc. This is what I want from that position. Mascher was easy to love because of his energy, exuberant tackling, and all action style.

So as far as this thread goes, if Lucas maintains this form (which we all know he is capable of), then I've got zero issue with his lack of goals/assists as what he brings to the side is worth a lot.
 
We need cover in that position, as we have done since Alonso left.

I for one would be fucking thrilled if we got another DM in who was as good as Lucas or better, with the latter being just fine in my opinion.
 
Since the 'Lucas is staying' thread was locked, I'm just going to assume that this is now the Wonderman thread.

During the Chelsea game, I got to thinking about @Herr Onceared and his team of Gerrards. So, who wins?

Gerrard
Gerrard Gerrard Gerrard Gerrard

Gerrard Gerrard
Gerrard Gerrard
Gerrard Gerrard

vs

Gerrard Gerrard
Gerrard Gerrard
Gerrard Lucas
Gerrard Gerrard Gerrard Gerrard
Gerrard


After typing that, I realise it was a pretty silly thought. Now I am thinking that Gerrard is a very silly name.
 
I'd say it was actually the other way around - Mascherano was often pushing up and marauding further in front, like how Momo was. However, he'd be able to scramble back and cover because he had so much stamina, energy and commitment on the pitch.

This, for example, is typical Mascherano for me:




Yep. Benitez liked to play with a holding player and a terrior in front who would do the leg work you would normally associate with a DM, but higher up the pitch, ala "defending from the front", preventing the play building from deep in the opponents midfield.
 
Yep. Benitez liked to play with a holding player and a terrior in front who would do the leg work you would normally associate with a DM, but higher up the pitch, ala "defending from the front", preventing the play building from deep in the opponents midfield.

Which is why it's only fair to expect assists and goals from Lucas. If we keep this formation he will score and assist this season. He has had plenty of shots on goal of late. 2 against Bolton alone. He isn't anywhere near as deep as Didi or Mascher.

If we are talking about a PL winning side the contribution from Lucas and his sidekick is vital at dm.
 
I'd say it was actually the other way around - Mascherano was often pushing up and marauding further in front, like how Momo was. However, he'd be able to scramble back and cover because he had so much stamina, energy and commitment on the pitch.

This, for example, is typical Mascherano for me:



For me there is next to no action in that clip for Mascher on the final third. With our current pressure up field Lucas gets in position to shoot and assist further up field.

Anyway, we will see. I think he will break his spell of 135 matches without scoring pretty soon. Imo the system is a gift to the player he was when he arrived from gremio.
 
Goals break-up comparison between 2013-14 and 2014-15:

2013-14

Strikers (Suarez, Sturridge, Aspas): 56 goals
AM (Sterling, Coutinho, Moses): 17 goals
CM (Gerrard, Henderson, Lucas, Allen): 20 goals
Defence (Enrique, Skrtel, Agger, Sakho, Johnson, Toure, Flanagan): 11 goals
Own goals: 6 goals
Total: 110 goals

2014-15

Strikers (Lambert, Sturridge, Balotelli, Borini): 7 goals
AM (Sterling, Lallana, Markovic, Suso, Ibe): 14 goals
CM (Gerrard, Henderson, Coutinho, Lucas, Allen, Can, Rossiter): 16 goals
Defence (Moreno, Skrtel, Lovren, Sakho, Manquillo, Johnson, Toure, Flanagan, Enrique): 5 goals
Own goals: 4 goals
Total: 46 goals

Pretty clear where the difference lies. But I'll add with Suarez's departure and our investment in AMs, the onus really should have fallen on them as well. Our 45 million investment in Lallana and Markovic hasn't really paid much dividends in terms of goals.

P.S. - I haven't included Coutinho in the AM category because I think he's now really playing as a no. 8.
 
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Long way to go but Coutinho is boss when he's on form

Any Garcia comparison is ridiculous anyway
 
Games Goals Assists
Didi: 283 11 (1:25) 25 (1:11)
Lucas: 263 6 (1:43) 15 (1:17)
Masch: 139 2 (1:70) 7 (1:20)

Proves my point along for years on here that masher did not do enough for a midfielder. Barca put him in defence.

Call it Holding, defensive whatever you like you still need to chip in with goals and assists. Keane, Vierra, petit, mcallister, didi. You don't need to pass it sideways and backwards just because you are a DM
 
Proves my point along for years on here that masher did not do enough for a midfielder. Barca put him in defence.

Call it Holding, defensive whatever you like you still need to chip in with goals and assists. Keane, Vierra, petit, mcallister, didi. You don't need to pass it sideways and backwards just because you are a DM

Are you trying to say that you think lucas is better than mascherano?
 
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