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Zlatan: Guardiola Spineless Coward
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"Doesn't do it in big games" is a complete myth, anyone that believes that is a cretin
As Rory Smith said:
"Barcelona were prepared not only to offer Samuel Eto'o in part exchange to tempt Internazionale to part with their prized asset in 2009, but that they were also happy to pay around £35m on top, and then grant Ibrahimovic £10 million-a-year to play alongside Messi, Xavi, Iniesta"
As Rory Smith said:
"Barcelona were prepared not only to offer Samuel Eto'o in part exchange to tempt Internazionale to part with their prized asset in 2009, but that they were also happy to pay around £35m on top, and then grant Ibrahimovic £10 million-a-year to play alongside Messi, Xavi, Iniesta"
Until he played for barca, he had never scored a goal in the knock out stages of Europe ... and considering the clubs he played for, and how they've won it before he arrived/after he left, I don't think that's too much to ask for ... As I said earlier, once he got over that issue, he took his place in the 'club' below Messi & Ronaldo ...
I don't really care what he does for Sweden ... It's not really a fair barometer imo.
I'm not sure you could be the opposite type of player and persuade that many big clubs to let you go to one of their competitors.
Not gonna bite, mo chara... Bono's ALWAYS been shite at football!
I am with ya in both regards!
I don't get your point, he doesn't do it in big games is disproved by Barcelona spending big and adding a decent player to get him?
He was like the anti Arjen Robben for the longest time, any time I seen Robben he was fantastic, any time I seen Zlatan he was shite but I know that's not a fair representation of how good or consistent either player is. I've seen him play well quite a few times now and his scoring record is impressive, he's about 1 in 2 for his whole career, he's obviously a good player but I can understand the big game accusation.
Not going to go into all the big games I can remember but there was one particular one that comes to mind, both legs vs Liverpool in the champions league quarters. Torres V Ibra, Torres was fantastic in the 2nd leg from what I can remember.
See, that's exactly what he *wouldn't* do. If he played to his full potential, which is huge, he would certainly have improved our results over recent seasons, but at the cost of goodness knows what shenanigans off the field. As far as today's team is concerned, I wouldn't swap him for Sturridge.
Don't want to argue but what are the shenanigans you're thinking about? Things went wrong in Barcelona but I don't think that surprised anyone. He scored lots of goals and then he got benched (probably because of Messis whishes). He has moved alot but that is the modern football sadly. Money and greedy agents.
Oh, get off it. No player that good - and I've said repeatedly that he IS that good - gets moved on by that many top clubs without good reason.
He is that good and his record confirms it. Every club that he played for made good money off him. He is confrontational and that doesn't go down well anywhere. Probably the reason why he was flogged but he is a winner by all accounts.
Saying he doesn't do it in big games is a myth, a lazy stereotype and one perpetuated by idiots that think judging him on the occasional CL game against English opposition is fair.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...h-of-the-AC-Milan-forwards-English-curse.html
"
Ibrahimovic, even more so, has often been cast as overrated on these shores, someone who reserves his best for YouTube apperances, having failed mostly to produce the goods against English opposition. His crime, apparently, that he has never scored a hat-trick at Old Trafford or Stamford Bridge (he did score twice for Barcelona against Arsenal in a Champions League tie once, but we'll forget about that for the purpose of maintaining a myth).
No more. In San Siro last night, faced with less than mighty English opponents, Ibrahimovic was a force of nature, the fulcrum of a side that lacerated callow and out of their depth pretenders to the European crown.
Ibrahimovic's problem, if it can be called that, with English crowds is perhaps rooted in the cult of personality. Dripping with arrogance and never far from upsetting coaches, team-mates or fans, the big Swede has been cast in turns as show pony or simply a malcontent.
Ibrahimovic the man constantly at war with the world makes for better story telling than Ibrahimovic the footballer when he only crosses our path from time to time."
There's been so many articles that destroy the myth, unfortunately I can't remember every single one or where to find them
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...h-of-the-AC-Milan-forwards-English-curse.html
"
Ibrahimovic, even more so, has often been cast as overrated on these shores, someone who reserves his best for YouTube apperances, having failed mostly to produce the goods against English opposition. His crime, apparently, that he has never scored a hat-trick at Old Trafford or Stamford Bridge (he did score twice for Barcelona against Arsenal in a Champions League tie once, but we'll forget about that for the purpose of maintaining a myth).
No more. In San Siro last night, faced with less than mighty English opponents, Ibrahimovic was a force of nature, the fulcrum of a side that lacerated callow and out of their depth pretenders to the European crown.
Ibrahimovic's problem, if it can be called that, with English crowds is perhaps rooted in the cult of personality. Dripping with arrogance and never far from upsetting coaches, team-mates or fans, the big Swede has been cast in turns as show pony or simply a malcontent.
Ibrahimovic the man constantly at war with the world makes for better story telling than Ibrahimovic the footballer when he only crosses our path from time to time."
There's been so many articles that destroy the myth, unfortunately I can't remember every single one or where to find them
"Whenever an British commentator or pundit makes reference to Zlatan Ibrahimovic, it’s always accompanied by a caveat regarding his goal-scoring record against English teams in the Champions League. It’s such an irrelevance, and there aren’t any other players who we apply that asterisk to.
We seem to have a really hard time accepting the Swede as the world class player that he quite clearly is. Sure, his record against our sides may not be anything spectacular, but this is a player who has a career average of almost a goal every two games (246/504)."
http://thepremierleagueowl.com/perpetuating-myths-about-zlatan-ibrahimovic/
It's a lazy stereotype and on a par with saying all German people are madly efficient, the French smell and the English have bad teeth. I consider anyone that says Zlatan goes missing in big games to be on the same intellectual level as anyone that resorts to lazy stereotypes about nationalities.
We seem to have a really hard time accepting the Swede as the world class player that he quite clearly is. Sure, his record against our sides may not be anything spectacular, but this is a player who has a career average of almost a goal every two games (246/504)."
http://thepremierleagueowl.com/perpetuating-myths-about-zlatan-ibrahimovic/
It's a lazy stereotype and on a par with saying all German people are madly efficient, the French smell and the English have bad teeth. I consider anyone that says Zlatan goes missing in big games to be on the same intellectual level as anyone that resorts to lazy stereotypes about nationalities.
Until he arrived at Barcelona, how many goals did Zlatan score in the CL during the knock-out stage? Had his record in derbies & big games (PSV in Holland, Milan/Inter/Roma/Lazio for Juve/Milan etc) been as good as his overall goalscoring record?
I consider the fact you're utterly clueless about his record, and how it DID improve after he arrived at Barca (winner against Madrid, a few goals in the knock out stages etc) that you're on the same intellectual level as 'British commentators' you slam.
The details: Ibrahimovic's English critics like to point out that he doesn't perform against English teams, conveniently ignoring the winning goal he scored for Sweden against the Three Lions in 2004. While the 6ft 5in forward may have his faults, it's also extremely arrogant to dismiss a talent that has lit up Serie A, helping Juventus, Inter and AC Milan win the title in an incredible six out of seven seasons (although Juve's victories in 2005 and 2006 were later revoked). Ibrahimovic, 30, has scored over 200 career goals, finishing top scorer in Italy with 28 goals last season and can also boast titles in Spain (with Barcelona) and Holland (Ajax). Despite this, Martin O'Neill once called Ibrahimovic "the most overrated footballer on the planet" and his record of going nearly 12 hours without a goal against a team with an English centre-back would seem to suggest he struggles against English teams, but while this statistic is potentially damning, it isn't enough to disprove the myth that Ibrahimovic is not a top class player. Lionel Messi, by way of an example, has yet to score in eight games against Chelsea, but that quirk does little to diminish his formidable reputation
How about you post some facts instead of asking questions you can't answer yourself?
Enough articles have been written to destroy the myth, as I've posted..how about you post some facts in support of your argument
How about you post some facts instead of asking questions you can't answer yourself?
Enough articles have been written to destroy the myth, as I've posted..how about you post some facts in support of your argument
Finally found the article I was looking for, by the excellent Gabriele Marcotti, remembered it thanks to the Karate Kid III reference!
http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/1669?cc=5739
" Not to mention the fact that with the passing of time we often forget which games are "big." Sweden had their backs to the wall and were close to elimination when, after being battered by Italy for 85 minutes at Euro 2004, Ibrahimovic delivered this goal. Was it clutch? You bet. Does most of the world remember it that way? Nope.) "
"One of the ugliest title-winning sides I can remember was Jose Mourinho's Inter in 2008-09. Inter basically attacked two ways. They either sent Maicon on one of his trademark runs down the flank or they hit endless long balls to Ibrahimovic. He ended up scoring 25 goals and Inter won the title by 10 points. Job done. But definitely not easy on the eye. "
http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/1669?cc=5739
" Not to mention the fact that with the passing of time we often forget which games are "big." Sweden had their backs to the wall and were close to elimination when, after being battered by Italy for 85 minutes at Euro 2004, Ibrahimovic delivered this goal. Was it clutch? You bet. Does most of the world remember it that way? Nope.) "
"One of the ugliest title-winning sides I can remember was Jose Mourinho's Inter in 2008-09. Inter basically attacked two ways. They either sent Maicon on one of his trademark runs down the flank or they hit endless long balls to Ibrahimovic. He ended up scoring 25 goals and Inter won the title by 10 points. Job done. But definitely not easy on the eye. "
uuuuuh - I couldn't give a toss if he doesn't score against English teams (Zlatan or Messi), but Messi has scored (since early on) in knock out games (& finals) AND the big games in Spain non-stop. The biggest games - he comes to play. Zlatan didn't do it until his time with Barca. So there - that's the 'facts' which you're quite clearly unaware of (I know, I used to bash this and now I don't and say he's in that class below Messi & Ronaldo) ...
As for your last article - his goals per season (again) wasn't what people really moaned about. It's far easier to have a debate when you answer the criticism leveled at a player (which are now gone by those who've watched him throughout his career on the club level - I don't really look at int'l footy stats as the be all and end all of a player, unless it's someone who should be doing more for a good team, which Sweden isn't) by bringing up articles that have nothing to do with the questions.
That article was linked to on the second page of this thread.
Good player who is extremely easy to dislike, which doesn't help his reputation.
" Not to mention the fact that with the passing of time we often forget which games are "big." Sweden had their backs to the wall and were close to elimination when, after being battered by Italy for 85 minutes at Euro 2004, Ibrahimovic delivered this goal. Was it clutch? You bet. Does most of the world remember it that way? Nope. "
I'm not sure there's any point in continuing discussion. Why? How about what I said earlier:
[article] don't really look at int'l footy stats as the be all and end all of a player, unless it's someone who should be doing more for a good team, which Sweden isn't[/article]
I'll make it really simple though - I was one of his biggest critics until he started showing in big games for Barca that he doesn't shy away from the goals. Since then, in my books, he's amongst the best players in the world - just below the Messi/Ronaldo mix. You're not arguing with someone who thinks Zlatan is shite, but someone who had a valid gripe against him until he took his game to the next level.
Just sharing
[article=http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/6527624/zlatan-ibrahimovic-earned-right-brag-soccer]Ibrahimovic's failings in the Champions League shouldn't be confused with failings in big games, per se, which is a frequent, if misplaced, criticism. Ibrahimovic is a master in big games -- domestically, at least. He was the key player in this year's first Milan derby, causing his ex-Inter teammates all sorts of problems, as well as winning and scoring the decisive penalty. At Barcelona, he volleyed home the only goal of the game six minutes into his first-ever Clasico.
And a "big game" is not just a match against a big club -- it's about the context of the encounter. On the final day of the 2007-08 season, for example, Inter needed a win away at Parma to be sure of the league title. Ibrahimovic had been out for seven weeks with a knee injury, but bravely entered play in the 51st minute to score the only two goals of the game while barely able to sprint properly. That was a big game.[/article]
[article]However, the eight league titles to his name require a caveat, because two of them won for Juventus were subsequently revoked after the Calciopoli scandal in 2006. But a common counterargument against Ibrahimovic's run that he has simply turned up at already successful clubs and joined in the fun is unfair. Only at Barcelona did he join a club that had triumphed the previous season, with a slight exception for Inter, which was handed the 2005-06 title when Juventus was denied it. But Inter hadn't won the title outright for 18 seasons before Ibrahimovic joined. Milan hadn't won it for seven seasons until Sunday night. Only at Barcelona does that criticism stand up, and even then, it's not much of an argument.[/article]
[article=http://zeenews.india.com/sports/football/zlatan-ibrahimovic-leaves-italy-as-one-of-serie-a-s-true-greats_745834.html]At Inter he became a true talisman. Three seasons brought three more Scudetti, and 57 goals were scored in the process. His return from injury on the final day of 2007-08 was his crowning moment; with the Nerazzurri struggling at Parma, and the title in Roma’s hands, he came off the bench to grab a league-winning brace. He went on to revel in the no-nonsense approach garnered by Jose Mourinho in his final term in the blue and black, picking up his first capocannoniere title thanks to a superb backheel effort in round 38 against Atalanta, his 25th goal of the season.
Milan had gone seven years without a Serie A title before Ibra rocked up and guided them to their 18th crown two seasons back. He dragged them to victories at key moments, scoring his 14 goals in 14 different games, with his strikes in draws and single-goal victories alone accounting for an 11-point swing in the Rossoneri’s favour. That included an early winner from the penalty spot in front of the Curva Nord in his first Milan derby in red and black. It was always destined to be decided by Zlatan.
[/article]
[article=http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/6527624/zlatan-ibrahimovic-earned-right-brag-soccer]Ibrahimovic's failings in the Champions League shouldn't be confused with failings in big games, per se, which is a frequent, if misplaced, criticism. Ibrahimovic is a master in big games -- domestically, at least. He was the key player in this year's first Milan derby, causing his ex-Inter teammates all sorts of problems, as well as winning and scoring the decisive penalty. At Barcelona, he volleyed home the only goal of the game six minutes into his first-ever Clasico.
And a "big game" is not just a match against a big club -- it's about the context of the encounter. On the final day of the 2007-08 season, for example, Inter needed a win away at Parma to be sure of the league title. Ibrahimovic had been out for seven weeks with a knee injury, but bravely entered play in the 51st minute to score the only two goals of the game while barely able to sprint properly. That was a big game.[/article]
[article]However, the eight league titles to his name require a caveat, because two of them won for Juventus were subsequently revoked after the Calciopoli scandal in 2006. But a common counterargument against Ibrahimovic's run that he has simply turned up at already successful clubs and joined in the fun is unfair. Only at Barcelona did he join a club that had triumphed the previous season, with a slight exception for Inter, which was handed the 2005-06 title when Juventus was denied it. But Inter hadn't won the title outright for 18 seasons before Ibrahimovic joined. Milan hadn't won it for seven seasons until Sunday night. Only at Barcelona does that criticism stand up, and even then, it's not much of an argument.[/article]
[article=http://zeenews.india.com/sports/football/zlatan-ibrahimovic-leaves-italy-as-one-of-serie-a-s-true-greats_745834.html]At Inter he became a true talisman. Three seasons brought three more Scudetti, and 57 goals were scored in the process. His return from injury on the final day of 2007-08 was his crowning moment; with the Nerazzurri struggling at Parma, and the title in Roma’s hands, he came off the bench to grab a league-winning brace. He went on to revel in the no-nonsense approach garnered by Jose Mourinho in his final term in the blue and black, picking up his first capocannoniere title thanks to a superb backheel effort in round 38 against Atalanta, his 25th goal of the season.
Milan had gone seven years without a Serie A title before Ibra rocked up and guided them to their 18th crown two seasons back. He dragged them to victories at key moments, scoring his 14 goals in 14 different games, with his strikes in draws and single-goal victories alone accounting for an 11-point swing in the Rossoneri’s favour. That included an early winner from the penalty spot in front of the Curva Nord in his first Milan derby in red and black. It was always destined to be decided by Zlatan.
[/article]
I forgot those strikes against Parma - that was just before he moved to Barca too, which as the first snippet you posted said, was when he started scoring in derbies. As I said however, he's fantastic and I think we'll see him in the Premier League or the Bundesliga next year ...
I dont get this "judging people in the big games" shite.....
Surely it is just as hard to consistently score all season, season upon season....???
If thats the case then Ibrahimovich is top quality, not many strikers guarantee you goals to win you leagues like he has (every year).
Top player, just a level below Ronaldo and Messi but definately in the top 5 players in the world the last couple of years.
Oh yeah and he is a twunt.
Surely it is just as hard to consistently score all season, season upon season....???
If thats the case then Ibrahimovich is top quality, not many strikers guarantee you goals to win you leagues like he has (every year).
Top player, just a level below Ronaldo and Messi but definately in the top 5 players in the world the last couple of years.
Oh yeah and he is a twunt.
It's the mark of great players ... You expect Messi, Ronaldo to score every big game - you don't with Rooney or other wannabe greats. Zlatan used to be in the Rooney camp imo - excellent players, but when they're really needed against the top notch opposition, they disappear. Zlatan shed the tag ... and oddly enough, I just don't think he's a cunt.
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