Harvey

[Hyena]

One thing I've learned from watching Liverpool is that as fans, we don't see everything especially when it comes to young(ish) players.

A season ago all of us had written Gravenberch off. Now he's the Dutch Rodri. At the same time Quansah looked like he had overtaken Konate but what a fall off he's had.

Now, there are some youth players I don't rate at all (Doak) or think are overrated (Bacjetic) while I have some emotional favourites (Morton/Beck/Harvey) but ultimately, there's no point arguing too much over it because players develop and change

 

[Accedalyday]

One thing I've learned from watching Liverpool is that as fans, we don't see everything especially when it comes to young(ish) players.

A season ago all of us had written Gravenberch off. Now he's the Dutch Rodri. At the same time Quansah looked like he had overtaken Konate but what a fall off he's had.

Now, there are some youth players I don't rate at all (Doak) or think are overrated (Bacjetic) while I have some emotional favourites (Morton/Beck/Harvey) but ultimately, there's no point arguing too much over it because players develop and change

2nd time I've seen this on the thread - did people really underrate him? He barely played ...

(I didn't think he was *this* good but didn't think he couldn't potentially turn around - eventually, at a certain level, you need the physical tools to deal with the reality of the game)

 

[StevieM]

One thing I've learned from watching Liverpool is that as fans, we don't see everything especially when it comes to young(ish) players.

A season ago all of us had written Gravenberch off. Now he's the Dutch Rodri. At the same time Quansah looked like he had overtaken Konate but what a fall off he's had.

Now, there are some youth players I don't rate at all (Doak) or think are overrated (Bacjetic) while I have some emotional favourites (Morton/Beck/Harvey) but ultimately, there's no point arguing too much over it because players develop and change

What also doesn’t change is the moment we lose a game everyone is shit and needs binning off.

The only thing I’m surprised about is that Trent hasn’t been blamed for it all.

 

[MomoWASright]

What also doesn’t change is the moment we lose a game everyone is shit and needs binning off.

The only thing I’m surprised about is that Trent hasn’t been blamed for it all.

Well he didn’t turn up. Like the Man U game.

 

[binomial]

Rogers & Nwaneri in less than 30 games have already overtaken Harvey in terms of potential, as has (to a lesser extent) Dibling.

With how teams play nowadays and the physical demands you need, Harvey would struggle to get in a lot of Prem sides.

 

[Modo]

Rogers & Nwaneri in less than 30 games have already overtaken Harvey in terms of potential, as has (to a lesser extent) Dibling.

With how teams play nowadays and the physical demands you need, Harvey would struggle to get in a lot of Prem sides.

Good point.

 

[Hyena]

Physicality is the most overrated attribute in modern football.

 

[Accedalyday]

Physicality is the most overrated attribute in modern football.

You're being extra harsh on Harvey now

 

[Brizzle]

Rogers & Nwaneri in less than 30 games have already overtaken Harvey in terms of potential, as has (to a lesser extent) Dibling.

With how teams play nowadays and the physical demands you need, Harvey would struggle to get in a lot of Prem sides.

I get the point - but not every player is going to be a potential star. I think this thread is possibly an overreaction to a game of random squad players away to Plymouth.

There are lots of valid points about his ceiling, and where he fits. But he was never 'going to be world class' and he isn't 'done in the PL'. EDIT: Not attributing these comments to Binomial.

 

[bluebell]

Rogers & Nwaneri in less than 30 games have already overtaken Harvey in terms of potential, as has (to a lesser extent) Dibling.

With how teams play nowadays and the physical demands you need, Harvey would struggle to get in a lot of Prem sides.

Harvey has always been a squad option and if someone comes in for £35m+ and he wants to leave, the club will sell him. What makes Harvey, CJ and Gomez needed at the moment is the Homegrown criteria. Considering the window is closed and the summer threatens to be a busy one, I would rather keep these 3 unless they insist on moving

 

[keniget]

Physicality is the most overrated attribute in modern football.

It depends on where you’re playing and what else you bring to the table.

For many, athleticism is what gives them the competitive edge.

 

[dogboy]

Physicality is the most overrated attribute in modern football.

It's unfortunately not. Slot has stressed the importance of constant running as has Legohead. City have fallen off the pace because their midfield can't move.

 

[StevieM]

It's unfortunately not. Slot has stressed the importance of constant running as has Legohead. City have fallen off the pace because their midfield can't move.

Is that not stamina rather than physicality - the problem isn’t with Harvey’s stamina, it’s that he gets knocked off the ball easily.

I took it to mean that “physicality” was referring to physical strength.

I think the closest player Harvey could look at replicating in the current squad is Macca, but Harvey veers towards the more creative side.

He doesn’t have the pace or physicality of Dom - but also, I think he’d be much better (like CJ) with a consuming games.

This season Harvey isn’t darting much, isn’t even coming on as much and has played in a few different positions - kind of reminds me of how Gakpo looked last season and there’s also the unfortunate injury he sustained - so I’m pretty comfortable with saying if he played consistently alongside our top midfielders, and got into some form, we wouldn’t be having these conversations.

I mean, even Dom has looked out of sorts at times.

 

[dogboy]

Is that not stamina rather than physicality - the problem isn’t with Harvey’s stamina, it’s that he gets knocked off the ball easily.

I took it to mean that “physicality” was referring to physical strength.

I think the closest player Harvey could look at replicating in the current squad is Macca, but Harvey veers towards the more creative side.

He doesn’t have the pace or physicality of Dom - but also, I think he’d be much better (like CJ) with a consuming games.

This season Harvey isn’t darting much, isn’t even coming on as much and has played in a few different positions - kind of reminds me of how Gakpo looked last season and there’s also the unfortunate injury he sustained - so I’m pretty comfortable with saying if he played consistently alongside our top midfielders, and got into some form, we wouldn’t be having these conversations.

I mean, even Dom has looked out of sorts at times.

Aye but football has changed over the last few years. Someone, maybe @Modosaid that Elliot should look at the like of David Silva on how to play the game with his stature. That was more of a tiki-taka (for want of a better term) mindset. That's changed over the past year or two, long balls are deployed and I believe it's a return to the land of the giants albeit more technical players than the past.

 

[Farkmaster]

Physicality is the end all and be all of modern football. Athletes over all, and that's lamentable, but it also is apart from a discussion of Harvey Elliot.

In every time period, being taller, faster, stronger helped, everything else being equal. You could also just say he's not enough of a wizard, given the other things that go against him in our team.

 

[dogboy]

Physicality is the end all and be all of modern football. Athletes over all, and that's lamentable, but it also is apart from a discussion of Harvey Elliot.

In every time period, being taller, faster, stronger helped, everything else being equal. You could also just say he's not enough of a wizard, given the other things that go against him in our team.

Unfortunately true.

 

[rurikbird]

Whenever I doubt Elliott I remember that Klopp saw enough in him to give him fairly consistent minutes even when he was younger. Jurgen is a pretty good judge of talent and clearly there was something about Elliott, even compared to someone like Carvalho, that made Klopp think he was worth investing development time into.

Would be kind of a pity if all of that just ended with a £25M transfer to Bournemouth…

 

[Modo]

Aye but football has changed over the last few years. Someone, maybe @Modo

I'm not sure what more I can say on the matter.
For me, when it comes to Harvey, it's simple.

Harvey unfortunately doesn't possess the body to fully utilise his talent.

So the question is, is it worth it?

Context:

What's the one physical attribute that Kante, Verratti, and Shaqiri have that Elliott doesn't have?

Pace.

Yes, Shaqiri was quick when he was younger. Don't believe me? Check YouTube for his old Basel clips.

These players, who share the same height and maybe body as Harvey, mask their slight stature with another physical attribute.

When Shaq lost his pace, he compensated with strength—unfortunately, another attribute Elliott is lacking.

Obviously, pace wasn't the only thing. Verratti and Kante were very agile as well.

Maybe it's unfair of me to compare him to top-class players. How about Joe Allen?

Same height, same size, same island.

Had a decent PL career, but it didn't quite work out for him at LFC.

What did Joe have that Harvey lacks?

Again, we're back to pace or agility or tenacity. My point is, despite being an average player, Allen could really move and win duels in midfield. That gave him a decent PL career.

Now remember, my claim was that "Harvey doesn't possess the body to fully utilise his talent."

I'm not having a go at him, I'm actually calling him talented. I've always thought he was. You'd be blind if you couldn't see the talent the kid possesses.

He's a playmaker, plain and simple. He's intelligent, he can read the game, and he can, to some extent, dictate play. That's why he looks so good when he comes on as a sub. Imagine how good he'd be if he could combine this with the physical attributes those other players have.

For Harvey to utilise his talent, without suddenly becoming quick, he has to play quicker. He can't allow players to get near him, just like Iniesta or Zola. Unfortunately, these two were maestros on the ball.

So let's circle back to the question I asked initially. Is it worth it?

There are other talented players out there, who could possibly have a higher ceiling than him.

So is it worth keeping him for what we realistically are going to get?

Can you, for instance, imagine Harvey doing what Gibbs-White is doing for Forest in the future?
I'm not talking about the elite of the elites here.

I alluded to it before, but we have let go of young PL level players before, like Neco and Wilson.

Harvey is more talented than both of them, but unfortunately, I just don't see him reaching the levels a player playing for a team like LFC needs to reach.

 

[StevieM]

Rogers & Nwaneri in less than 30 games have already overtaken Harvey in terms of potential, as has (to a lesser extent) Dibling.

With how teams play nowadays and the physical demands you need, Harvey would struggle to get in a lot of Prem sides.

Nah - Nwaneri is flavour of the month and over performing - he’ll soon regress back to the norm.

The key thing is more to do with playing regular football.

Nwaneri is only playing due to injury, but the threshold for the others to get into the team is lower than ours.

Unlikely any of the players you mentioned displaces anyone in our preferred regular starting XI, so they’d spend time on the bench looking equally as out of sorts as Harvey.

Conversely - Harvey playing regularly at Villa or So’ton would look a cracking prospect.

Physicality plays a part, but it’s no more important than playing regularly in a good team.

 

[StevieM]

Aye but football has changed over the last few years. Someone, maybe @Modosaid that Elliot should look at the like of David Silva on how to play the game with his stature. That was more of a tiki-taka (for want of a better term) mindset. That's changed over the past year or two, long balls are deployed and I believe it's a return to the land of the giants albeit more technical players than the past.

There’s been a bit of chatter recently about teams loading up with physically imposing players rather than “luxury” skillful players - which sort of plays into the reasons why city have collapsed this season.

All that invariably means, we’ll be looking at less physically imposing and more skillful players in 5 years time.

I think Harvey could develop more like Bernardo Silva or maybe Foden (without the pace) or even go back a bit in time, if he works on the tackling side of things, maybe a bit Danny-Murphy like.

I still maintain it’s about regular game time above all else.

 

[keniget]

There’s been a bit of chatter recently about teams loading up with physically imposing players rather than “luxury” skillful players - which sort of plays into the reasons why city have collapsed this season.

All that invariably means, we’ll be looking at less physically imposing and more skillful players in 5 years time.

I think Harvey could develop more like Bernardo Silva or maybe Foden (without the pace) or even go back a bit in time, if he works on the tackling side of things, maybe a bit Danny-Murphy like.

I still maintain it’s about regular game time above all else.

Is he gonna get that regular game time?

 

[StevieM]

Is he gonna get that regular game time?

That’s the thing - but also the only person who is, will be a player capable of outperforming Gravy, Mac & Dom, so it’s not going to be a huge list.

 

[The Nomad]

Elliott, like Gomez, will continue to bring offered favourable contracts as squad players Due to their personalities and home grown status.

 

[Hansern]

Think we get a bid of 30-35 mill this summer. I'd sell and invest in someone who is a better fit for the team going forward.
We're potentially selling two HG players in Kelleher and Harvey though. Not sure how we are set to fulfill the quota for the future.
That said, we're looking at 50-60 mill for those two players.