Tony Barrret Article
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I'm not sure how you can truthfully find it 'incredible' when only 5 years ago a large proportion of the fan base felt the same about Hodgson.
That's a reasonable point. I guess the difference is it was perfectly obvious from very early on that Hodgson was a disaster. Just over a year ago Rodgers took us to second (with all of the usual caveats about Suarez etc)...and therefore, surely deserves another look after the disaster of last season. Nobody is suggesting he's given a blank cheque and long term contract irrespective of results.
Yep, hence I'm not sure.
I'm not sure. I think he's a poor manager, or at least much worse than we could have. I think the longer he's around the worse things will be, even given a certain amount of short term success.
That's what I think. But obviously there's always an element of doubt. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say there's a 20% chance that he's got it in him to be a great manager for us. While I think that I'm certainly not rooting for us to lose.
I'm not sure. I think he's a poor manager, or at least much worse than we could have. I think the longer he's around the worse things will be, even given a certain amount of short term success.
That's what I think. But obviously there's always an element of doubt. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say there's a 20% chance that he's got it in him to be a great manager for us. While I think that I'm certainly not rooting for us to lose.
Yes it really should have been as straightforward as that. He should have had a plan to repeat what he did with Suarez, without Suarez.
Jesus wept.
Had a fucking plan to replace his goals, Ideally with a decent striker and goalscoring midfielder if u can't find a striker alone. I hate his obvious stance on buying proven premier league players. They ain't proven. Lovern one good season, Lallana likewise. Benteke a little more proven but it's easy to see it's difficult to see him fitting into his way of playing. Might be proven wrong with him, but don't think I will. If I am, I'll be the first to hold my hands up. As Pete has said, think he'll cause more damage if here for the long term that's why id prefer to have seen him gone in the summer (same thoughts as a lot of others had).
For a long time I was reluctant to go too far down the road of him having got lucky with Suarez and Sturridge that season. It seemed unnecessarily ungenerous.
But the longer he's been here the more aberrant that period seems. At any other point he's basically tried to create some variation of that dismal 4231 we saw on Sunday, with very little creativity or flair and often a very very questionable defence.
It was what he played for most of last season, and for the first half of 12/13, and it's always had the same drab results. He tried another con trick of course with the 343 with some temporary success. But that's all it was. People cottoned on and once they did we collapsed again.
Really I've seen no evidence that he can construct a team out of good but not world class pros. Because that's what we need - there won't be another Suarez any time soon. We need a coach who can take really decent players and build a team better than the sum of its parts. We have that and I'd be confident we can get back in the top 4 and eventually challenge for the major trophies a few years on. I just don't think Rodgers has ever shown an ability to do that.
But the longer he's been here the more aberrant that period seems. At any other point he's basically tried to create some variation of that dismal 4231 we saw on Sunday, with very little creativity or flair and often a very very questionable defence.
It was what he played for most of last season, and for the first half of 12/13, and it's always had the same drab results. He tried another con trick of course with the 343 with some temporary success. But that's all it was. People cottoned on and once they did we collapsed again.
Really I've seen no evidence that he can construct a team out of good but not world class pros. Because that's what we need - there won't be another Suarez any time soon. We need a coach who can take really decent players and build a team better than the sum of its parts. We have that and I'd be confident we can get back in the top 4 and eventually challenge for the major trophies a few years on. I just don't think Rodgers has ever shown an ability to do that.
That's rubbish, people have just assumed that premier league proven, slightly obvious signings are Rodgers, where as relatively unknown, potential rich signings are the committee's. Its speculative bollocks with little reason, probably based on guesswork as it seems logical that a bunch of scouts would find the likes of Markovic, whereas Rodgers would know all about Milner, I doubt the reasoning is any more than that, because as mentioned earlier in this thread, I doubt anyone outside the company has a clue who pushed for whom
When you post like a retard it's basically essential that you get your vocabulary correct.
Or else you look like a spastic.
Aka you.
God, do we really have to slog through this *every* time??
It's not 'speculative bollocks'. Anyone with a brain can spot the pattern. What's more, it's backed up with mountains of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence:
all the 'sound' LFC journos say it
look at his initial targets in 2012: Allen, Borini, Williams, Sigurdsson, Walcott, Dempsey
compare to the much more diverse targets from January 13 to Summer 13 once the transfer committee had widely been acknowledged to have been established: Alberto, Coutinho, Mkhitaryan, Aspas, Sakho, Willian, Diego Costa.
look at summer 14 and the reemergence of some typical Rodgers targets (Lallana, Lovren, Bertrand) which one might expect as a return from his very good season. Compare these to the starkly different nature of the other targets (which, I might add, accord entirely with the much-discussed FSG strategy of pursuing value through younger players): Moreno, Can, Markovic, Manquillo, Origi.
Look finally at what's happened in this most recent phase, apparently dedicated to letting BR prove his point. Almost all signings fit this established pattern: Clyne, Ings, Milner, Benteke. What's more, examine what's happened to those signings I and others identify as the committee's:
Manquillo - gone
Moreno - out of the team, reportedly for sale
Markovic - nowhere near the team, available for loan
Balotelli - banished (ok, maybe not so telling!)
Sakho - out of favour to DEJAN LOVREN
Can - on the bench. Games he might get seemingly guaranteed for the captain and a new Rodgers signing
Do I really need to go on?
I love it when Mark posts. I get to play SCM bingo:
Lazy
Agenda
Selective
Bullshit
Rodgers
Bingo every post!
Lazy
Agenda
Selective
Bullshit
Rodgers
Bingo every post!
Barrett has excellent contacts and, although he's a fan himself, he doesn't write from an agenda. That doesn't mean he's infallible, of course, but it also doesn't mean that he writes lazy, selective bullshit, no matter how much it might upset lazy and selective super fans.
This is actually the full article:
Tony Barrett
Published at 12:01AM, August 11 2015
Before Liverpool’s cathartic 1-0 victory over Stoke City on Sunday, Brendan Rodgers was asked if he remained in complete command of the club he manages despite the pressure he has come under. Although he answered in the affirmative, it was only when the Northern Irishman delivered his first team sheet of the season that his response became emphatic.
After a summer in which he had to survive a stern post-season review, it is becoming clear that, rather than having his wings clipped by Fenway Sports Group (FSG), Liverpool’s owners, Rodgers feels sufficiently empowered to do things his way, without compromise. The team that took to the field at the Britannia Stadium on Sunday highlighted this bold approach as it showed that, whether Rodgers succeeds or fails, he will be doing so on his own terms.
By choosing Nathaniel Clyne, Dejan Lovren, James Milner, Adam Lallana and Christian Benteke — players that he identified and convinced his employers to sign — and overlooking players such as Mamadou Sakho, Lazar Markovic, Alberto Moreno and Divock Origi, who arrived via the committee system installed by FSG, Rodgers removed any lingering doubts about his authority. This is his team and his way.
Victory afforded Rodgers an early vindication, even if it was secured by a typically outstanding goal from Philippe Coutinho, the most successful of Liverpool’s committee signings. No matter how determined he is to be master of his own destiny, he will not ignore a talent such as Coutinho or Roberto Firmino just to prove a point.
But while what is occurring is not a power struggle, it is a refinement of the club’s modus operandi as they attempt to remove many of the grey areas that clouded everything from team selection to performance assessment last season, a campaign that ended with neither manager nor committee happy with the manner in which a complex transfer strategy had been implemented.
Although players had not been signed against the manager’s will, there were instances when he had to accept that internal politics meant that he could not always get his first choice. Equally, there was a feeling within the club that Rodgers could have made better use of his new arrivals.
Having been permitted to replace his coaching staff, Rodgers’s team selection away to Stoke was among the most significant of his tenure. For those left out, particularly Sakho, Moreno and Lucas Leiva, omission has created uncertainty. With three weeks to go until the transfer window closes, all three have discovered that they are not first choice. How they react to this will determine whether they stay or go.
While Rodgers was able to use the cover of Sakho becoming a father last week to explain his absence, the defender had made himself available and travelled with the Liverpool squad for Sunday’s match.
Given that Jordan Henderson was picked in an FA Cup quarter-final replay against Blackburn Rovers in April despite enduring a sleepless night after attending the birth of his second child, the suggestion that Sakho was spared on compassionate grounds rather than being overlooked in favour of Lovren begins to wilt under scrutiny.
For Lucas, who did not travel to Stoke, the message is clear — his time at Liverpool is almost up. The combination of the deterioration in his relationship with Rodgers and his manager’s tactical approach has made the Brazilian surplus to requirements, regardless of his status as Liverpool’s longest-serving player. Moreno will know that the selection at left back of Joe Gomez, an 18-year-old centre half, is hardly a ringing endorsement of himself.
But whether aggrieved at omission or relieved at selection, every member of the Liverpool squad will share one common belief — that Rodgers is not only calling the shots, but he is also doing so from a position of increased strength and with a renewed conviction about how he intends to manage.
One thing I'd say about the 'not getting first choices' point: every Liverpool manager has experienced that. It's nothing new and it's nothing sinister. Sometimes their first choice didn't sign and then they had to settle for an alternative. There can be debate as to how keen each manager was on the alternative (Rafa, especially, rarely got his first choices, but, a bit like a kid with spending money, he was determined to get someone, even if, upon getting them, he regretted it pretty quickly), but there's no real doubt that it was ultimately their decision to sign them, and so it's ultimately their decision. The same goes for Rodgers.
Many managers sulk, but it IS their job to make the most of what they have. If a manager is told a player is coming whom he doesn't want, THAT'S the time for him to say - 'Look, don't get him, because I won't play him, you're wasting time and money in getting him, I simply won't use him'. Once he's here, he's got to be treated properly. It simply won't do for managers to go around briefing hacks that, 'Ah, that player, the club forced him on me'. No club will 'force' a player on a manager if they really believe that the manager doesn't want him - it makes no financial sense. What usually happens is the manager goes along with it (as even Mourinho did with Shevchenko) and then, when they realise the player isn't going to surprise him and fit effortlessly into the system and play brilliantly every game, they revert to the 'Boo hoo, I didn't want him really' whine. It never, ever, deserves respect as an argument.
'But...But...my first choice was Messi but we couldn't get him!' Only rarely does one actually get one's first choice if one's aiming high. Then one has to either take someone else or not take anyone at all. If you take someone else, it's down to you to work with him and improve him and use him. That's what being a manager is all about. Deal with it.
Rafa, for example, was ridiculous in his treatment of Robbie Keane - he resented the fact that he got him and so, even though the bloke was good enough to do a job for us, Benitez resolved to 'prove' he was right not to want him. There was zero effort to integrate him into the team. That was outrageous. I've no time for any manager who does that to players. They're servants of the club, the club isn't their servant. The same goes for Rodgers last season - petulant, childish and irresponsible in his treatment of signings he had but didn't want, or didn't want enough. You've got them. They're here. They're your players. Use them and try to improve them unless and until you can sell them.
Tony Barrett
Published at 12:01AM, August 11 2015
Before Liverpool’s cathartic 1-0 victory over Stoke City on Sunday, Brendan Rodgers was asked if he remained in complete command of the club he manages despite the pressure he has come under. Although he answered in the affirmative, it was only when the Northern Irishman delivered his first team sheet of the season that his response became emphatic.
After a summer in which he had to survive a stern post-season review, it is becoming clear that, rather than having his wings clipped by Fenway Sports Group (FSG), Liverpool’s owners, Rodgers feels sufficiently empowered to do things his way, without compromise. The team that took to the field at the Britannia Stadium on Sunday highlighted this bold approach as it showed that, whether Rodgers succeeds or fails, he will be doing so on his own terms.
By choosing Nathaniel Clyne, Dejan Lovren, James Milner, Adam Lallana and Christian Benteke — players that he identified and convinced his employers to sign — and overlooking players such as Mamadou Sakho, Lazar Markovic, Alberto Moreno and Divock Origi, who arrived via the committee system installed by FSG, Rodgers removed any lingering doubts about his authority. This is his team and his way.
Victory afforded Rodgers an early vindication, even if it was secured by a typically outstanding goal from Philippe Coutinho, the most successful of Liverpool’s committee signings. No matter how determined he is to be master of his own destiny, he will not ignore a talent such as Coutinho or Roberto Firmino just to prove a point.
But while what is occurring is not a power struggle, it is a refinement of the club’s modus operandi as they attempt to remove many of the grey areas that clouded everything from team selection to performance assessment last season, a campaign that ended with neither manager nor committee happy with the manner in which a complex transfer strategy had been implemented.
Although players had not been signed against the manager’s will, there were instances when he had to accept that internal politics meant that he could not always get his first choice. Equally, there was a feeling within the club that Rodgers could have made better use of his new arrivals.
Having been permitted to replace his coaching staff, Rodgers’s team selection away to Stoke was among the most significant of his tenure. For those left out, particularly Sakho, Moreno and Lucas Leiva, omission has created uncertainty. With three weeks to go until the transfer window closes, all three have discovered that they are not first choice. How they react to this will determine whether they stay or go.
While Rodgers was able to use the cover of Sakho becoming a father last week to explain his absence, the defender had made himself available and travelled with the Liverpool squad for Sunday’s match.
Given that Jordan Henderson was picked in an FA Cup quarter-final replay against Blackburn Rovers in April despite enduring a sleepless night after attending the birth of his second child, the suggestion that Sakho was spared on compassionate grounds rather than being overlooked in favour of Lovren begins to wilt under scrutiny.
For Lucas, who did not travel to Stoke, the message is clear — his time at Liverpool is almost up. The combination of the deterioration in his relationship with Rodgers and his manager’s tactical approach has made the Brazilian surplus to requirements, regardless of his status as Liverpool’s longest-serving player. Moreno will know that the selection at left back of Joe Gomez, an 18-year-old centre half, is hardly a ringing endorsement of himself.
But whether aggrieved at omission or relieved at selection, every member of the Liverpool squad will share one common belief — that Rodgers is not only calling the shots, but he is also doing so from a position of increased strength and with a renewed conviction about how he intends to manage.
One thing I'd say about the 'not getting first choices' point: every Liverpool manager has experienced that. It's nothing new and it's nothing sinister. Sometimes their first choice didn't sign and then they had to settle for an alternative. There can be debate as to how keen each manager was on the alternative (Rafa, especially, rarely got his first choices, but, a bit like a kid with spending money, he was determined to get someone, even if, upon getting them, he regretted it pretty quickly), but there's no real doubt that it was ultimately their decision to sign them, and so it's ultimately their decision. The same goes for Rodgers.
Many managers sulk, but it IS their job to make the most of what they have. If a manager is told a player is coming whom he doesn't want, THAT'S the time for him to say - 'Look, don't get him, because I won't play him, you're wasting time and money in getting him, I simply won't use him'. Once he's here, he's got to be treated properly. It simply won't do for managers to go around briefing hacks that, 'Ah, that player, the club forced him on me'. No club will 'force' a player on a manager if they really believe that the manager doesn't want him - it makes no financial sense. What usually happens is the manager goes along with it (as even Mourinho did with Shevchenko) and then, when they realise the player isn't going to surprise him and fit effortlessly into the system and play brilliantly every game, they revert to the 'Boo hoo, I didn't want him really' whine. It never, ever, deserves respect as an argument.
'But...But...my first choice was Messi but we couldn't get him!' Only rarely does one actually get one's first choice if one's aiming high. Then one has to either take someone else or not take anyone at all. If you take someone else, it's down to you to work with him and improve him and use him. That's what being a manager is all about. Deal with it.
Rafa, for example, was ridiculous in his treatment of Robbie Keane - he resented the fact that he got him and so, even though the bloke was good enough to do a job for us, Benitez resolved to 'prove' he was right not to want him. There was zero effort to integrate him into the team. That was outrageous. I've no time for any manager who does that to players. They're servants of the club, the club isn't their servant. The same goes for Rodgers last season - petulant, childish and irresponsible in his treatment of signings he had but didn't want, or didn't want enough. You've got them. They're here. They're your players. Use them and try to improve them unless and until you can sell them.
Why should he have been? There are variables outside of his control. Ergo; other teams spending billions of pounds.
Lets all take a break and see where we are after 10 games.
If Rodgers does enough to survive the first 10 games we'll have a good season if not we can look at Klopp or whoever else is in the market.
If Rodgers does enough to survive the first 10 games we'll have a good season if not we can look at Klopp or whoever else is in the market.
... and the same boring, repetitive crap ...
I think it's time to bring back Brendan.
I think it's time to bring back Brendan.
Rodgers will fail because he will yet again not find the right balance. Lovren instead of Sakho and Allen staying and Lucas leaving says it all. If one of Henderson/Milner/Can gets a bad injury then our season is fucked big time and that after spending more than £200m the last two seasons. He puts personal agendas before what is best for the team. If he didn't want a player then he demands that the player isn't signed threatining to leave if he is. You don't accept that the player is signed and then moan about it if the results isn't good enough.
Rodgers may indeed fail, but let's wait for more than a game to see if there's a pattern of stubbornness?
He did drop Lovren last season after a terrible start, and persisted with Sakho and Can (both committee signings) in the back three for the longest time. So it's not like he's hell bent on using only his own signings.
And god, Lucas leaving isn't going to fuck our season - trust me.
He did drop Lovren last season after a terrible start, and persisted with Sakho and Can (both committee signings) in the back three for the longest time. So it's not like he's hell bent on using only his own signings.
And god, Lucas leaving isn't going to fuck our season - trust me.
There are variable out of his control, but that doesn't stop him from having a reasonable plan to try and replace Suarez, he's the manager.
I think the idea is that he has a strong bias towards those players without being utterly impervious to reason. Lovren was a walking disaster and in the end there really was no practical alternative to dropping him.
But when the question is more (a bit more) debatable you'll tend to see the preferences revealed.
Agreed. Though maybe he did have a reasonable plan and maybe Sturridge's injury scuppered it. And so did Balotelli's lack of anything resembling a footballer.
Big season for Rodgers. Another failure and he's gone. In my view, anyway.
Cunning spot.
Rodgers is ON the committee. That seems to be forgotten by some. He's part of the committee. All the signings are committee signings. As with all committee decisions, however, there will be differences in emphasis and enthusiasm from one member to the next about each collective decision made.
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