The Wijnaldum Conundrum

[dmishra]

Wijnaldum is actually a replacement for Milner, if you think about it. A younger, foreign "Mr. Versatile." This is a signing that allowed Klopp to move Milner to LB without losing quality in the middle of the park.

I suppose that is what he wanted in Zielinksi as well before he moved on to Wijnaldum. Basically what I call the 'third midfielder'.

I think Wijnaldum will show his quality, but the present formation doesn't really serve him very well. My main issue is that I'm just a bigger fan of the 4-2-3-1 regular triangle, and not the 4-3-3 inverted triangle. The former gives more stability, and in any case, I believe the personnel we have is more suited to that.

Basically
- Can/Stewart for the holding mid spot.
- Henderson/Grujic for the second midfield spot.
- Wijnaldum/Lallana as the third midfielder. Coutinho could also play there in his Rodgers no. 8 role if we're trying to get both Firmino and Mane in the attacking three.

 

[cloggypop]

He played most of his football at PSV in the middle 3 of a 4-3-3.

 

[dmishra]

That Coutinho no. 8 theme is something I hope Klopp explores. I don't think Klopp does that because he's always viewed Coutinho as a LWF, and also because that renders Wijnaldum/Lallana redundant. But it could make sense for a few reasons:

• Coutinho in a deeper position compensates for the lack of natural playmaking ability in the sitting two midfielders. Helps us get more control in the middle of the park.
• Stops Coutinho from shooting at sight as he is now always liable to do.
• Helps accommodate both Firmino and Mane in the front three.

I don't see it happening though.

 

[dmishra]

He played most of his football at PSV in the middle 3 of a 4-3-3.

Yes, but what position in that midfield three. Tip of a regular triangle? Or one of the two flanking a single holding mid? Even in the latter, you could have one player designated as the more attacking of the two.

Also, at Feyenoord, he largely played as an AM or winger from whatever I saw.

 

[cloggypop]

One of the two mainly. He plays a few positions well though, including AM and out wide on either side.

Can't remember ever seeing him as a DM.

 

[beejay]

I must be watching different games (although I was out of the country and missed the Burnley flop) because I think he has been excellent so far in an unshowy but extremely effective way. He is performing the continuity role, linking midfield with attack, keeping the ball moving and joining the attack from deep. He is technically a very good player so his control and passing is effortless and he plays short passes all the time, helping us to retain possession and keep control of the game.

He is quick, shields the ball & turns well (which is always the sign of a top player), athletic and strong. He can run with the ball as we have seen from his Newcastle days as a winger but so far has played the simple pass to a colleague in space rather than running down blind alleys and it's that judgement which is impressive to me.

I watched him closely at the Emirates and he had a big role in wresting control of midfield away from an Arsenal side who can kill you once they get on top through the centre.

I can't stand players who hide in games (Downing was a classic example, the prick) and he is just the opposite, always making space and showing for the ball. I think there's a lot more to come from him in an attacking sense but his 2 assists are a good sign - on both occasions he has ghosted into the box to pick up the ball in a dangerous position and then found a smart pass to Lallana rather than trying something dramatic and giving the ball away.

 

[manwithnoname]

I must be watching different games (although I was out of the country and missed the Burnley flop) because I think he has been excellent so far in an unshowy but extremely effective way. He is performing the continuity role, linking midfield with attack, keeping the ball moving and joining the attack from deep. He is technically a very good player so his control and passing is effortless and he plays short passes all the time, helping us to retain possession and keep control of the game.

He is quick, shields the ball & turns well (which is always the sign of a top player), athletic and strong. He can run with the ball as we have seen from his Newcastle days as a winger but so far has played the simple pass to a colleague in space rather than running down blind alleys and it's that judgement which is impressive to me.

I watched him closely at the Emirates and he had a big role in wresting control of midfield away from an Arsenal side who can kill you once they get on top through the centre.

I can't stand players who hide in games (Downing was a classic example, the prick) and he is just the opposite, always making space and showing for the ball. I think there's a lot more to come from him in an attacking sense but his 2 assists are a good sign - on both occasions he has ghosted into the box to pick up the ball in a dangerous position and then found a smart pass to Lallana rather than trying something dramatic and giving the ball away.

He was pilloried by Newcastle fans for regularly going missing in games and was dubbed "The Invisible Man" by a few.

 

[Hansern]

"The Invisible Man". If they had any more "Invisible Men" they might have survived relegation....
11 goals and top scorer for that sorry excuse for a team.

 

[manwithnoname]

"The Invisible Man". If they had any more "Invisible Men" they might have survived relegation....
11 goals and top scorer for that sorry excuse for a team.

Maybe. Benitez also dropped him when he arrived. There must be some basis for it

 

[rurikbird]

One intriguing possibility with Wijnaldum that I'm starting to see is playing him on the wide left in Coutinho's position, with Coutinho dropping into the "Iniesta position" in midfield 3, like this:

Wijnaldum-----Sturridge/Firmino-----Mane
-------Coutinho----------Hendo/Lallana------
----------------------Can---------------------------

They can then interchange in these two positions throughout the game. This will make better use of Wijnaldum's attacking abilities – unlike Phil he has the speed and power to beat defenders on the outside or cut in inside, he can calmly pick out a killer pass under pressure (as he showed with his two assists for Lallana, one of which came from the left flank) and he has better goal-scoring stats than Phil last season and throughout his career, so it makes sense to play him further up front. Firmino and Lallana can also both play in that position, so there would be plenty of competition and options for rotation.

For Coutinho moving infield can hopefully finally allow him show his playmaking abilities and not rely too much on his shot. I have been a fan of his talent even before he came to Liverpool; at his best he can be incredibly direct and simply unplayable. However in recent years I thought his development took a turn in the wrong direction, with him trying to become something like Neymar which he simply doesn't have the tools for. I'm sure his dream is to play for Barca some day – well, he is never ever going to get into Barca's team as a LWF, just compare Neymar's stats against his to see the huge gap in offensive production he can never hope to fill. However, he is one of the few players in the world who could conceivably replace Iniesta some day – so if he wants that dream to have any chance of coming true, he should talk to Klopp about wanting to play a bit deeper in midfield and start to re-model his game to suit playing in CM rather than the wing.

 

[Jerry Laser]

I was in the pub yesterday and was talking to a few United fans who were slagging off Mhkytarian (sp) and I told them that there were some LFC fans already criticising Wijnaldum and IMO it's way too early to even begin thinking of doubting their quality. IMO both players will come good and will prove to be good signings. I also had a dig by suggesting that for what they paid for him they should be more worried about Pogba.

Idiots whove played FIFA too much and know fuck all about actual football. If they dont score a hat trick whilst beating five men, swapping shirts at half time with some cunt then taking a selfie on twitter then theyre shit in their eyes!

 

[gkmacca]

I'm embarrassed to say I know zero about this guy. I must have seen him play before but I've no recollection of it. And I still don't feel I've seen him for us! I just hope he does well.

 

[rurikbird]

And right on cue, ThisIsAnfield.com posted an article about the possibility of moving Coutinho in midfield 3:

Stealing my idea from a couple of posts back, obviously 🙂. BTW I don't think the idea with Lallana and Coutinho both in midfield 3 is as fantastical as the writer thinks it is. Sure at first glance it would look like a lineup from a kid who plays Football manager (and sucks at it), but in real life Guardiola already proved that sometimes it's possible to play 3 attacking midfielders AND 2 strikers in the same team and make it work by various tricks (extremely high defensive line + sweeper-keeper + full-backs who double as DMs + everybody runs and presses like madmen). I think Klopp's experiments with Wijlandum and Lallana playing together as CMs are part of the same general tactical trend of finding ways to squeeze more attacking players into the starting 11.

 

[dmishra]

And right on cue, ThisIsAnfield.com posted an article about the possibility of moving Coutinho in midfield 3:

Stealing my idea from a couple of posts back, obviously 🙂. BTW I don't think the idea with Lallana and Coutinho both in midfield 3 is as fantastical as the writer thinks it is. Sure at first glance it would look like a lineup from a kid who plays Football manager (and sucks at it), but in real life Guardiola already proved that sometimes it's possible to play 3 attacking midfielders AND 2 strikers in the same team and make it work by various tricks (extremely high defensive line + sweeper-keeper + full-backs who double as DMs + everybody runs and presses like madmen). I think Klopp's experiments with Wijlandum and Lallana playing together as CMs are part of the same general tactical trend of finding ways to squeeze more attacking players into the starting 11.

Eh Rurik, I made two posts about it in this thread just before you did!

 

[Hansern]

Maybe. Benitez also dropped him when he arrived. There must be some basis for it

He started 8 out of 10 games under Benitez. Starting on the bench vs City and us.
Got an assist when he came on at half time vs us.

 

[doctor_mac]

Yeah, Benitez hated him so much he also had this to say about him:

“That is the problem: because he is so good, he can play everywhere and do well,” he told reporters, when asked about Wijnaldum’s best position.
“We were thinking about where to play him the other day, and we said: ‘His best position could be behind the striker’.
“But because he is doing well he can play on the right, he can play on the left.
“And even then I was talking to him about when he was playing against Costa Rica in the World Cup in Brazil, in a deeper position, and he can play there too because he is so good.
“On saying that, he is so good up front because he can create and score goals.
“I think that his best position is behind the striker but we need quality now out on the pitch, so he can help in any position.”

 

[Mystic]

Eh Rurik, I made two posts about it in this thread just before you did!

It would be an absolute travesty, and insult, to drop Lallana whilst he's in this form just to shoe in Coutinho. The front three and Lallana were fantastic on Saturday, and they deserve to start again.

 

[rurikbird]

Eh Rurik, I made two posts about it in this thread just before you did!

OK, I guess we'll have to share the royalties.

 

[dmishra]

It would be an absolute travesty, and insult, to drop Lallana whilst he's in this form just to shoe in Coutinho. The front three and Lallana were fantastic on Saturday, and they deserve to start again.

I agree Lallana has been quality of late. I was making a general point - not really for the game against Chelsea.

 

[manwithnoname]

Yeah, Benitez hated him so much he also had this to say about him:

I didn't say he hated him. I said he dropped him. Which he did.

Hence my question was formed around the latter - true - as opposed to the former - not true.

 

[doctor_mac]

I didn't say he hated him. I said he dropped him. Which he did.

Hence my question was formed around the latter - true - as opposed to the former - not true.

It is called hyperbole Brenners, something you have a spectacular gift for yourself. What his comments suggest is that despite the ignorant rantings of a section of the Newcastle support he played pretty well for them, and that Benitez recognised him as his best player.

 

[6TimesaRed]

Eh Rurik, I made two posts about it in this thread just before you did!

I'd have Lallana ahead of Coutinho in the midfield 3.. Only because at the moment he is on top of his game and far more consistent than Coutinho.. add to that, he gives us balance..

 

[beejay]

He was pilloried by Newcastle fans for regularly going missing in games and was dubbed "The Invisible Man" by a few.

Yeah and I guess you could say the same about West Ham fans and Mascherano.

 

[cloggypop]

He started 8 out of 10 games under Benitez. Starting on the bench vs City and us.
Got an assist when he came on at half time vs us.

He played 38 league games out of 38 (2 as sub) so he was hardly dropped.

 

[Judge Jules]

There's a Toon supporter of my acquaintance who wouldn't find this half as much of a puzzle as some of you lot are making it. He rates Wijnaldum's ability but would tell you that Wijnaldum was painfully clearly playing within himself in the latter stages of their last miserable Prem season. He got in the side simply because his quality meant that a half-@rsed Wijnaldum was still better than pretty much any alternative they had in their squad, end of.