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Souness & Moyes

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HC

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Is it just me that thinks it's uncannily similar in circumstances between these two and their respective managerial stints at power houses (or recently deceased power houses)?
 
The odd thing for me was that Souey seemed very strong and positive in the early days. He just made wrong decisions. Moyes, in contrast, is eerily quiet and apparently clueless. He doesn't even seem to be trying things. Souey was trying to many things too quickly, in terms of tactics and personnel. Moyes is strangely aimless.
 
Moyes reminds me more of Hodgson tbh although there are similarities to Souness in the respect of taking over a hugely successful giant and rapidly destroying it all.
 
The odd thing for me was that Souey seemed very strong and positive in the early days. He just made wrong decisions. Moyes, in contrast, is eerily quiet and apparently clueless. He doesn't even seem to be trying things. Souey was trying to many things too quickly, in terms of tactics and personnel. Moyes is strangely aimless.

Hmm

Whelan, grobelaar, nicol, Barnes, rush and molby with all 'upcoming youth prospects' I doubt that januzaj lad will be a stevie mac player but it just seems so similar.

It amazes me that fergie gets no stick from utd fans for the state he left them in, he was no mug and knew when to call it a day however to leave a business in that sort of state and you'd be out in the wildness not on the non exec committee.

Or have I got that wrong, is Moyes really thaaat bad?
 
That to me is the main similarity - Ferguson and Kenny both let the core of the side get too old and stale before they left a shitty rebuilding job for the next man.

Moyes totally changing the back room team and his approach to football in general has been damaging to the team, but that isn't a top four squad even if it does have some big names in it.

Most of Fergies signings in the past few years aren't working out that well either.
 
It's quite fascinating what can happen. Take us - it didn't seem as though we were fated to decline so far. It felt as if we could spring back if Souey had got, say, Keane and Shearer. But you can't underestimate how much the mental side of it took on its own momentum. After so much success the sudden failure can really shake up a club from top to bottom. Logic now suggests if the mancs buy two or three big players in the summer, and maybe change manager, they will come back pretty quickly, but it's by no means guaranteed.
 
As others have said this Manure team won the league by 11 points last season: the lack of quality of the squad itsefl cannot explain such regression - struggling to be in top 3 is something, but they are over 15 points off the top. The squad should be doing much better. Only factor is Moyes.
 
That to me is the main similarity - Ferguson and Kenny both let the core of the side get too old and stale before they left a shitty rebuilding job for the next man.

Moyes totally changing the back room team and his approach to football in general has been damaging to the team, but that isn't a top four squad even if it does have some big names in it.

Most of Fergies signings in the past few years aren't working out that well either.

What's odd is how often he rebuilt the squad - every few years, he reinvented them and made them better while keeping the core of the team at a young age. I think one of the reasons he left was he knew what was on the horizon - bar de gea, the backbone is on the wrong side of 30 and their skills were eroding quickly (Vidic, Evra, etc)
 
I still can't believe they won it last year. They were such a dull, dim, side. Even in Souey's first year, we could still, on the odd occasion, look really stylish and entertaining. It was rare, but t happened enough to remind you. This manc team only ever looks, at best, like it can grind out a result or nick it with a late goal. There's no wit, no style, in that team, as a team.
 
As others have said this Manure team won the league by 11 points last season: the lack of quality of the squad itsefl cannot explain such regression - struggling to be in top 3 is something, but they are over 15 points off the top. The squad should be doing much better. Only factor is Moyes.

A year is a long time in football, particularly when the core of the side is 30+.

And there's a stat used - the details of which escape me at the moment - which pointed to United being extremely fortunate last year and a big regression was coming anyway.

It coincided with a managerial change which is just compounding it
 
A year is a long time in football, particularly when the core of the side is 30+.

And there's a stat used - the details of which escape me at the moment - which pointed to United being extremely fortunate last year and a big regression was coming anyway.

It coincided with a managerial change which is just compounding it

I can take a regression associated with a change in manager, but a (comfortable) title winning side being further off the pace than anyone can remember? That sort of regression defines statistics and points to the human factor.
 
It's quite fascinating what can happen. Take us - it didn't seem as though we were fated to decline so far. It felt as if we could spring back if Souey had got, say, Keane and Shearer. But you can't underestimate how much the mental side of it took on its own momentum. After so much success the sudden failure can really shake up a club from top to bottom. Logic now suggests if the mancs buy two or three big players in the summer, and maybe change manager, they will come back pretty quickly, but it's by no means guaranteed.

This is on the money.

You can see it in their players body language, its just not there anymore and they look spent and clueless, the dark magic spell Ferguson had over them has evaporated, it will never come back imo, doesn't mean they wont have moments of success in the future but nothing like we saw under Ferguson.

They need a whole new rebuild, most of them look like they have accepted that its the end of their run, they have their medals and monster wages and now Ferguson has fucked off they have mentally retired, they are going through the motions, they need a lot of new blood and a new manager, even then who knows what will happen?
 
I'd like to believe that this season is ushering a new era of Liverpool in the Premiership esque hardship, but it's hard to see it happening quite in the way it happened to us.

Unfortunately, our decline happened at just the wrong time in football - when the money and everything that came with it changed the game. Though of course there were other factors, namely the lack of forward thinking and talent in the boardroom.

Utd are hamstrung by the Glazers at the moment but their recent sponsorship deals underline the fact that they are a superpower in the game and that surely can't be undone by a couple bad seasons.
 
I can take a regression associated with a change in manager, but a (comfortable) title winning side being further off the pace than anyone can remember? That sort of regression defines statistics and points to the human factor.

Have a look at the stats on luck.

There's about a 20 point swing if I remember correctly.

And you're not taking account of the extra year away from their peak most of these players are.
 
That to me is the main similarity - Ferguson and Kenny both let the core of the side get too old and stale before they left a shitty rebuilding job for the next man.

Moyes totally changing the back room team and his approach to football in general has been damaging to the team, but that isn't a top four squad even if it does have some big names in it.

Most of Fergies signings in the past few years aren't working out that well either.


There is no way of knowing this but even with all the issues with their squad, I am fairly confident, this Man Utd team would have been in the top 4 with Ferguson at helm.

One thing I dont understand is that Ferguson always was famous for having world class football operations - his number 2, coaching staff were supposed to really really good. No clue as to why Moyes decided to uproot all of that bring in his team.
 
Have a look at the stats on luck.

There's about a 20 point swing if I remember correctly.

And you're not taking account of the extra year away from their peak most of these players are.

By luck you mean Ferguson furiously sucking off the refs at half time.
 
Man U won last year but the cracks we're already showing.
Also, Chelsea, City and Arsenal were even worse and didn't really give Man U any competition. This time around those three are playing well and so are we. Man U just missed the bus this season and will have to overcompensate to catch up.
 
There are no cracks in a League-winning Squad that you can't remedy with £70 million.
No one retired. No one forced a move.

Blaming Luck, Ferguson or the Squad is ridiculous.

Agree with Spag Legs. A lot of those players have that look that says "I'm not playing for this man next season"
 
Agree with Spag Legs. A lot of those players have that look that says "I'm not playing for this man next season"


I agree. There was more fight at the beginning of the season but it looks like certain players (Van Persie for example) have just given up.
 
Yeah, I've got to say that it seems strange to me with every passing week that Moyes was the choice of Ferguson.

Ferguson has always, very clearly, learnt from us in the 70's and 80's. When Shanks left we had one of the greatest managers ever take his place. What was it that he changed - in his own words, almost nothing. There were certainly a few things he tweaked but he took the same playing philosophy and simply maintained it or tried to improve it slightly.

Ferguson had the mancs, in several different seasons, playing some of the most frighteningly dominant football I've seen. Not that there was this scintillating, Brazil 1970, performances every week. But they played an almost irresistible, overpowering attacking football that simply terrified most opposition. It was built on having match winners in several positions, dangerous pace on the edges but, most importantly, flair mixed with steel coming right through the centre. The rest of the team was important in that they provided the peripheral distraction and allowed the spine to do it's job - constantly sweep everything before them.

I've watched this manc team on a few occasions this season (not often) and then again yesterday. One thing keeps coming through; this team, under Moyes, is constantly trying to get behind the opposition by going around them. Fergusons teams kept going through their opponents. That approach has proven the most successful approach in English football in history and, you had to think, surely Ferguson was going to bring in someone who would continue that approach. Instead, in one season, Moyes has taken the most successful formula in the English game and made it unrecognizable. The spine of that team now looks as weak as piss.

RVP looks utterly uninterested - remarkably similar to the way Torres looked in the six months leading up to his departure. Evra too looks like he'd rather be anywhere but there. Vidic has already said he's leaving, Rio is thanking his lucky stars that he doesn't have to play anymore. The only one who looks like he gives a rats is Rooney - who knows how long he'll put up with it but he was about the only one who knew what was coming and he was the one who made a big effort to get out before the season even started.

The players in that squad - they can't win the title but with Ferguson there he'd have had them up there somewhere with us and, you can bet your life, they'd have been fired up to take it to us yesterday. That Moyes couldn't even get them up for a game against us at OT says everything you need to know about what he's doing to that club.

Long may it continue.
 
I don't think it can be blamed in one thing our person - but a combination.

Clearly, certain players we're going to "test" the new manager to see what they could get away.

Combine that with a core of d players who might lack desire and young players who have not had to fight for every victory and would be smacked in the face by Ferguson if they dared give anything other than 100%.

Add in a potentially unnecessary change to the back room team with different training focus and then Moyes different tactical approach.


Ageing core - lack of quality coming through, ROTC.

I'd also add the "blood in the water" thing - they've lost their aura of invincibility - teams feel like they can get a rail against them.

It's absurdly delightful to watch.
 
Makes you realise as well, just how much Fergie had them punching above their weight at times. You look at Rodgers and the way he's gradually shaped us into a unit that's more than the sum of it's parts. Moyes has come in and broken up a tried and tested structure to try to make his own mark on the club. That's arguably his biggest mistake, he should have been less ambitious/arrogant and eased himself into the club. United, in fairness, should have made that abundantly clear to him from the off, so they're as culpable.
 
I'd like to believe that this season is ushering a new era of Liverpool in the Premiership esque hardship, but it's hard to see it happening quite in the way it happened to us.

Unfortunately, our decline happened at just the wrong time in football - when the money and everything that came with it changed the game. Though of course there were other factors, namely the lack of forward thinking and talent in the boardroom.

Utd are hamstrung by the Glazers at the moment but their recent sponsorship deals underline the fact that they are a superpower in the game and that surely can't be undone by a couple bad seasons.

If they can't make the cl next season when the money doubles it may well mirror it financially to a point.
 
If they can't make the cl next season when the money doubles it may well mirror it financially to a point.

Quite. I can't see Moyes staying around long enough for it to become truly catastrophic for them, but the rot is setting in and if that only hampers them for a couple of seasons, it's better than nothing and it would seem to be, perfect timing for us. We need a club or two to fall away, every little helps.

The issue at the minute is two-fold. Players who play for the club, clearly don't want to play for him and it's difficult to see how he can attract top players with his profile and a lack of European Football to offer. They're always going to have money, as Keni said, so they will always have the potential there to be a force, and that's the danger for the rest of us. The biggest plus, regardless of whether Moyes stays or goes, is that the monopoly and fear factor has been broken, that's going to take longer to repair regardless of who ends up in charge.

I wouldn't be surprised if they try to go for Maureen in the Summer.
 
It'd be fucking hilarious if they went for Maureen in the sumner.

It'd fuck off Chelsea - and cost a fortune... And the best thing is.... Maureen would till need about £200m invested in players just to compete.

I'd love to see Maureen stick Jones or Smalling up front in one of his more "attacking formations"
 
It'd be fucking hilarious if they went for Maureen in the sumner.

It'd fuck off Chelsea - and cost a fortune... And the best thing is.... Maureen would till need about £200m invested in players just to compete.

I'd love to see Maureen stick Jones or Smalling up front in one of his more "attacking formations"

nah fuck that, he might play shit football at times but he wins everywhere he goes
 
Moyes is on a 6yr contract aswell, so it'll cost him a fortune to fuck him off.
Hopefully they give him at least one more season after this before giving him the boot - 2 or 3 seasons without champions league football would ruin them considering how highly leveraged they are.
Regardless of shrek signing a new contract, I wouldn't be surprised to see him hand in anther transfer request this summer, and the rapist will want out too. And I don't suppose Mata is too fond of playing wide left and right and being made to look a cunt as he doesn't do any tracking back.
 
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