Do you think that Israel is doing all it can to prevent the deaths of 10s of thousands of children?
It has one of the most advanced militaries in the world yet it is just blanket bombing town after town almost indiscriminately
Middle East Violence (content may offend)
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Do you think that Israel is doing all it can to prevent the deaths of 10s of thousands of children?
It has one of the most advanced militaries in the world yet it is just blanket bombing town after town almost indiscriminately
It's equally bizarre to see someone I respect keep repeating such easy mantras without specifying what those options might be.
I struggle to respond in here because of this. For the most part I have just been liking the sensible posts of @Atlas pointing out the genocide going on.
It's hard to look at posters justifying it.
I've read a number of (Western) military commentators stating that the operational complexity that Israel are having to deal with is far beyond what they've had to deal with in the past.
Israel are fighting an enemy in a very difficult environment who situate themselves in the civilian populace and are happy to sacrifice civilians for the cause. I rarely see calls for Hamas / Hezbollah to do all it can to prevent the deaths of civilians.
Have mistakes been made? Surely. Could more have been done? Maybe.
But to suggest that Israel have done nothing / very little is ignorant.
Not "indiscriminately". It's going after Hamas who, from the beginning, have based themselves in civilian areas and facilities. Up till now that tactic worked, Israel held back and the end result was Oct.7.
I can be empathetic to those who have ties to people currently in Israel, and I tend to not engage in any debate with them.
It's the "outsiders" who seemingly give more value to lives on one side than the other that's really disturbing to me.
This is where I lose hope.
Well, I'm in the first group. My mother was a Holocaust refugee. Not all her - hence my - relatives were equally fortunate. I do know a bit about what happened to them though, so I can give you chapter and verse about the background to all this as far as Israel is concerned.
Those pesky Palestinian kids that caused the Holocaust are the worst!
Ugh, sorry, I should keep out of this.
I'll just say that, from where I am sitting, there isn't a single poster on this forum that defends Hamas or justifies their actions.
I truly believe that everyone on SCM would like the bloodshed and nonsensical killing to stop.
None of us have the solution, and most of us think there must be a better way.
I hope people don't get stuck in this argument of "this is the only way". It saddens me to see people who are currently of that opinion, as there is surely no end to this with that perspective on both sides.
I'll just say that, from where I am sitting, there isn't a single poster on this forum that defends Hamas or justifies their actions.
I truly believe that everyone on SCM would like the bloodshed and nonsensical killing to stop.
None of us have the solution, and most of us think there must be a better way.
I hope people don't get stuck in this argument of "this is the only way". It saddens me to see people who are currently of that opinion, as there is surely no end to this with that perspective on both sides.
We've seen images/video of Israeli soldiers killing women shielding children holding white flags being shot.
We've seen Palestinian men waving flags shot and murdered, then denied by Israeli officials..only to be shown the footage by western journalists.
We've then seen IDF soldiers bragging about raping Palestinians in Israeli prisons.
Imagines of IDF soldiers dedicating the blowing up of houses to their partners birthday
IDF soldiers wearing the underwear of women either killed or displaced
We've seen Israeli politicians talking about Genocide/displacement/ethnic cleansing
We've seen Israel purposefully stopping aid & medicine going into Gaza, this'll add to the tally of those killed.
These things have happened and more.
You can't have seen the slaughter of thousands of people, claim I don't like bloodshed and hey I'm human too but still be ok with this carrying on unabated.
And I'd suggest, not all but a large chunk of the above, was also before 7th Oct.
I note a few posters have talked about If they were there and they saw this level of destruction and dehumanisation of Palestinians and they were in Gaza then they'd know what they'd do.
I'd suggest that this war is the first real 'online war' in our lifetimes. We've seen horrible images from Iraq/Syria/Myanmar but daily on our newsfeeds we've not seen this level of destruction and murder. Coupled with that though, is the fact that Palestinians have this reality for decades. They've seen this and experienced for decades, born in a refugee camp mother shot while picking olives, uncles land burnt and then stolen by some settler with a yank accent supported by an IDF solider.
What is forgotten re the ICJ ruling is that while they ask for the arrest of Netanyahu and Gallant for war crimes, they asked the same of Hamas leadership.
We've seen Palestinian men waving flags shot and murdered, then denied by Israeli officials..only to be shown the footage by western journalists.
We've then seen IDF soldiers bragging about raping Palestinians in Israeli prisons.
Imagines of IDF soldiers dedicating the blowing up of houses to their partners birthday
IDF soldiers wearing the underwear of women either killed or displaced
We've seen Israeli politicians talking about Genocide/displacement/ethnic cleansing
We've seen Israel purposefully stopping aid & medicine going into Gaza, this'll add to the tally of those killed.
These things have happened and more.
You can't have seen the slaughter of thousands of people, claim I don't like bloodshed and hey I'm human too but still be ok with this carrying on unabated.
And I'd suggest, not all but a large chunk of the above, was also before 7th Oct.
I note a few posters have talked about If they were there and they saw this level of destruction and dehumanisation of Palestinians and they were in Gaza then they'd know what they'd do.
I'd suggest that this war is the first real 'online war' in our lifetimes. We've seen horrible images from Iraq/Syria/Myanmar but daily on our newsfeeds we've not seen this level of destruction and murder. Coupled with that though, is the fact that Palestinians have this reality for decades. They've seen this and experienced for decades, born in a refugee camp mother shot while picking olives, uncles land burnt and then stolen by some settler with a yank accent supported by an IDF solider.
What is forgotten re the ICJ ruling is that while they ask for the arrest of Netanyahu and Gallant for war crimes, they asked the same of Hamas leadership.
We *know* what happened. We saw films, we read books we cried. we learnt about it at school, some of us visited the museums, we held memorials every year.
Our leaders vowed never again.
And yet here we are.
We watch people take boat rides with their children as they watch the bombs drop on Palestinians.
We watch people carrying the body parts of their blown to bits child in bags.
When we come to Nov 11th and we all stand in silence commemorating and remembering those who died and sacrificed then don't give me that guff about never again.
I can agree with a good deal of that. Will just add one or two further thoughts at this stage:
1. Violence is never enough on its own, not for a lasting solution. Sadly that doesn't mean it can always be avoided or limited under the immediate pressure of events.
2. Simply saying "there must be a better way" is humanly understandable, and in an ideal world there would be. Problem is this is a far from ideal world and that affects the situation in practical terms. Those who make the "better way" point need to be specific, or admit they can't be and have the honesty to accept the implications of that.
I very much doubt you do "know what happened" in the kind of detail I could share on here, but let that pass.
If by "guff" you mean "Never again" hasn't been achieved yet, then of course that's right. If you mean we shouldn't try, that's nonsense.
I agree that it is a difficult environment. Part of the reason that the terrorists situated within Gaza are happy to 'sacrifice' civilians is that they know full well that Israel will not think twice about murdering them. Every civilian murder (and for me it is murder, nothing accidental - because Israel know that they are going to kill civilians in their actions) helps the cause for Hamas, so they will serve it up knowing Israel will do the necessary.
It's because he's a stupid indoctrinated fucking bellend.
What good is it if I say "here this is a better way"? The ones who are having the decision power have already decided there is no other better way. So whatever solution put forward will be declared not viable....of course it's not viable.
It's also obtuse to say that Oct 7th has changed the stance of Israel. It's well documented that Israel has used escalation dominance as a foreign policy in the neighborhood since 1955 it didn't change suddenly. For every Israeli life lost they have always plundered in 100s if not 1000s. The atrocities committed by Israel in West Bank and Gaza even prior to Oct 7th is also well documented. There can be no sensible argument if we only acknowledge that Oct 7th happened and don't do so for the other side. As nobody in their right mind would condone what happened on Oct 7th - if you are not a connected person then life ought to be valued equally.
It's also obtuse to say that Oct 7th has changed the stance of Israel. It's well documented that Israel has used escalation dominance as a foreign policy in the neighborhood since 1955 it didn't change suddenly. For every Israeli life lost they have always plundered in 100s if not 1000s. The atrocities committed by Israel in West Bank and Gaza even prior to Oct 7th is also well documented. There can be no sensible argument if we only acknowledge that Oct 7th happened and don't do so for the other side. As nobody in their right mind would condone what happened on Oct 7th - if you are not a connected person then life ought to be valued equally.
WWJD?
I and others have acknowledged Israel's mistakes as well (I've said more than once that Israel is its own worst enemy at times) but its previous retaliation for decades of previous attacks has fallen well short of what it's doing now, so the idea that its stance hasn't changed is just weird.
I don't consider one life worth either less or more than another, whatever each individual's origins. However, if you've come at me and mine to take our lives I'm going to make sure you don't get another opportunity.
What about the opportunity for those who have made no actions towards taking 'you and yours' but have been considered acceptable collateral damage by Isreal in its campaign of genocide?
A campaign of genocide, properly so called, would mean Israel targeting those you mention. It hasn't. It's targeted Hamas, who have pulled those innocents in front of themselves to hide behind them. In the past Israel has stopped short of full retaliation because of that. Result: Oct.7.
It's been more than a year. You'd think someone would notice their aim is rubbish by now.
We shouldn't try?? Have you read anything I've posted on here.
Plus who the heck is trying at this point?
Cos I'm lost on this.
We've not stopped anything from happening or even really escalating.
In fact if anything we've allowed it to happen so arms companies can make money.
Yet those examples of where people have explicity shown IDF killing civilians have been ignored.
View: https://x.com/Hind_Gaza/status/1848290914201919939
Not Hamas, Not terrorists.
Apparently not genocide and not ethnic cleansing.
I don’t know enough about the subject matter to fully comment but this acceptance of collateral damage bothers me…
I want to understand how or what a local population can really do as a whole when powerful terrortist group embeds themselves in. What option do most Palestenian have ? To buy a house somewhere else in Israel for quieter life in suburbs.
Can only speak from when similar statements were being made to defend war crimes by gov back in Srilanka in the tamil height of civil war back in 2010 and 10k innocents whom died in middle of the last conflict were told to have been harbouring tamil tigers or they were being as shields. Anyone of any hint impartiality knows this wasn’t true and they lost their lives without choice because their lives were valued less than others. Many opposed them for different reasons but it’s total pussy excuse to say there is no other way. There is still ma choice being made to blow apart those apparently considered “human shields”.
I want to understand how or what a local population can really do as a whole when powerful terrortist group embeds themselves in. What option do most Palestenian have ? To buy a house somewhere else in Israel for quieter life in suburbs.
Can only speak from when similar statements were being made to defend war crimes by gov back in Srilanka in the tamil height of civil war back in 2010 and 10k innocents whom died in middle of the last conflict were told to have been harbouring tamil tigers or they were being as shields. Anyone of any hint impartiality knows this wasn’t true and they lost their lives without choice because their lives were valued less than others. Many opposed them for different reasons but it’s total pussy excuse to say there is no other way. There is still ma choice being made to blow apart those apparently considered “human shields”.
Now we're getting somewhere.
Do you know who started the war in 48', you absolute imbecile?
Do you know who accepted a partition plan, in which no one had to be displaced, and who ignited a proclaimed genocidal war?
Now surely you'll say that yes, it's true that in 48 there was a war which goal was to destroy the Jewish state but that does not mean that the Jews had to win and secure safe borders.
