Middle East Violence (content may offend)

[Blitz]

And Likid current governing political party calls to annex Gaza.
Right wingers in Israel claim Lebanese land is promised to Jews by God etc.
Yup. You're right can go back and forth.
Jews kicked out of plenty of other countries over the centuries, can lay claim to some of them?
Disengage but still keep power over amenities and flow of good in. Doesn't sound very sovereign to me.

You're governments genocidal language and actions continue.
Yet we continue.

Hamas, the party that over 80% of Palestinians support, in its founding charter, is calling for the killing of Jews all over the world, the ruling of Islam all over the world, especially in Dar-al-Islam(Spain for example) and cherishes the death for Allah above all.
Let me get the point through - 80% of Palestinians support this👆

Israel on the other hand always declared its wish for peace, including in its decleration of independence.
The pamphlet you are sharing is not official Likud party position, it was relesead by some private individuals who put the Likud symbol on it.
Do you understand the difference?
Individuals compared to wide people support.

So what we have here is a barbaric people and a civilised people, and it's clear for anyone who just wishes to see the situation as it is.
Any yet we continue with the critisim of Israel 9/10 times, and Hamas gets the soft treatment.

 

[Woland]

Fuck off your fucking cunt

 

[The Nomad]

Hamas, the party that over 80% of Palestinians support, in its founding charter, is calling for the killing of Jews all over the world, the ruling of Islam all over the world, especially in Dar-al-Islam(Spain for example) and cherishes the death for Allah above all.
Let me get the point through - 80% of Palestinians support this👆

Israel on the other hand always declared its wish for peace, including in its decleration of independence.
The pamphlet you are sharing is not official Likud party position, it was relesead by some private individuals who put the Likud symbol on it.
Do you understand the difference?
Individuals compared to wide people support.

So what we have here is a barbaric people and a civilised people, and it's clear for anyone who just wishes to see the situation as it is.
Any yet we continue with the critisim of Israel 9/10 times, and Hamas gets the soft treatment.

Right now in 2024, neither size are civilised people.

And I'm not being funny, if I was living I Gaza right now, I'd probably want some sort of revenge against those who have oppressed me for years, then destroyed everything around me which just so happens to be Israel

So 80% is probably too low.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I thought it would be higher, but only 40%, up from 22% a year ago: https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-...he-rise-among-palestinians-now-double-fatahs/

 

[Blitz]

That's very inaccurate, but I'll roll with you, 40% of Palestinians want everyone in the world to be Muslim through armed resistance and Sharia ruling.

Is that not enough to understand what a bunch of absolute psychopaths these people are?

Are you outside your mind mate?

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

That's very inaccurate, but I'll roll with you, 40% of Palestinians want everyone in the world to be Muslim through armed resistance and Sharia ruling.

Is that not enough to understand what a bunch of absolute psychopaths these people are?

Are you outside your mind mate?

As someone said above, I'm pretty sure I'd support Hamas if I lived in Gaza, especially after the last 12 months. I would think most would. Not necessarily for the exact outcome that they are looking for, but as they are the only people actively standing up for them, when their whole country is being devastated, and so many children have been killed.

But, I'm not in favor of any theocratic states, of any religion.

 

[Athens]

That's very inaccurate, but I'll roll with you, 40% of Palestinians want everyone in the world to be Muslim through armed resistance and Sharia ruling.

Is that not enough to understand what a bunch of absolute psychopaths these people are?

Are you outside your mind mate?

Dantes, you cunt.

 

[rubans]

Dantes, you cunt.

Hope that isn’t short hand fo Coconut again…

 

[kingjulian]

I thought it would be higher, but only 40%, up from 22% a year ago: https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-...he-rise-among-palestinians-now-double-fatahs/

So the stated objective of most people who had strongly supported Israeli action in this thread was "Hamas needs to be eliminated"....but the actions of indiscriminately and mercilessly killing civilians including children has achieved the opposite effect. It was hardly an unpredictable outcome....It was just an unwillingness to see things for what it is.

 

[Athens]

Hope that isn’t short hand fo Coconut again…

Not at all...

The post was very Dantes though, especially the stat plucked out of nowhere.

 

[Judge Jules]

So the stated objective of most people who had strongly supported Israeli action in this thread was "Hamas needs to be eliminated"....but the actions of indiscriminately and mercilessly killing civilians including children has achieved the opposite effect. It was hardly an unpredictable outcome....It was just an unwillingness to see things for what it is.

Balls. The risk was always there and known to be there. On the contrary, the charge of "unwillingness to see things for what it is" belongs firmly on your side of the debate for refusing to face the fact - and it IS a fact - that Oct.7 fundamentally changed the equation. For decades Israel, even under regular attack, held back from the kind of action it's now taking. Oct.7 showed that Israel could no longer accept the risk which that kind of restraint placed on its own citizens.

 

[Woland]

Good luck for the next hundred years of terror attacks and guerrilla warfare. I'm sure one of those stupid books you read will rationalise it

 

[SummerOnions]

I don't comment on most of this cos it all feels like a pointless argument.

I met up with a good friend of mine who's visiting Amsterdam for a few days. He's half Moroccan, half French. I was almost surprised how despondent he felt about everything for such an optimistic person.

The general fear among both Arabs and Jews for feeling persecuted in a war none of them are starting (US v Iran) is painful.

 

[Judge Jules]

Good luck for the next hundred years of terror attacks and guerrilla warfare. I'm sure one of those stupid books you read will rationalise it

This is the argument which held Israel back from going all out after Hamas before. Oct.7 was the result. You, and those who agree with you above and elsewhere, have been invited numerous times in this thread to say what the right response to Oct.7 would have been. Predictably you've all either ducked the question or failed to answer it. Come up with some actual suggestions and I'll gladly discuss them because I don't like bloodshed any more than you do.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I did answer it, you just didn't like the answer. Here's a few questions for you.

If you were asked on October 8th if the right solution was to kill 17k children over the course of a year, would you sign up to it?

What was the right course of action for Palestinians on October 6th, given the Great March of Return led to protesters being shot including some members of the IDF bragging about how many kneecaps they could shoot in a day.

Do you think it's a coincidence that the last countries to support South Africas apartheid were the US, the UK and Israel?

 

[Judge Jules]

I did answer it, you just didn't like the answer. Here's a few questions for you.

If you were asked on October 8th if the right solution was to kill 17k children over the course of a year, would you sign up to it?

What was the right course of action for Palestinians on October 6th, given the Great March of Return led to protesters being shot including some members of the IDF bragging about how many kneecaps they could shoot in a day.

Do you think it's a coincidence that the last countries to support South Africas apartheid were the US, the UK and Israel?

You didn't answer it. Your answer was the same as the one in the old Dave Allen joke about a tourist driving through Ireland who asked a farmer how to get to Dublin, whereupon the farmer told him "I wouldn't start from here".

I would have said on Oct.8 that Israel's only possible response to Oct.7 was to wipe out Hamas' military capability, since stopping short of doing so - as Israel had done for decades - had manifestly failed to protect its own citizens. No government could allow that situation to endure. It's not Israel's doing that Hamas have used their own compatriots as human shields all along. I have no defence to offer for shooting at peaceful protesters or for supporting apartheid but the implication that such actions go even part of the way towards justifying Oct.7 is contemptible.

 

[dogboy]

You didn't answer it. Your answer was the same as the one in the old Dave Allen joke about a tourist driving through Ireland who asked a farmer how to get to Dublin, whereupon the farmer told him "I wouldn't start from here".

I would have said on Oct.8 that Israel's only possible response to Oct.7 was to wipe out Hamas' military capability, since stopping short of doing so - as Israel had done for decades - had manifestly failed to protect its own citizens. No government could allow that situation to endure. It's not Israel's doing that Hamas have used their own compatriots as human shields all along. I have no defence to offer for shooting at peaceful protesters or for supporting apartheid but the implication that such actions go even part of the way towards justifying Oct.7 is contemptible.

So, are you stating that Israel's year long military response to October the 7th is justifiable?

 

[Judge Jules]

Hamas' military capability had to be destroyed. Before Oct.7 it was arguable that stopping short of doing that was a justifiable risk to take. After Oct.7 that argument could no longer stand.

 

[dogboy]

Hamas' military capability had to be destroyed. Before Oct.7 it was arguable that stopping short of doing that was a justifiable risk to take. After Oct.7 that argument could no longer stand.

So, are you stating that Israel's year long military response to October the 7th is justifiable?

 

[Judge Jules]

Yes, for the reason given. If you're saying it should have stopped because it was taking so long, Oct.7 made that irrelevant. After Oct.7 the threat from Hamas could no longer be tolerated.

 

[Brizzle]

You didn't answer it. Your answer was the same as the one in the old Dave Allen joke about a tourist driving through Ireland who asked a farmer how to get to Dublin, whereupon the farmer told him "I wouldn't start from here".

I would have said on Oct.8 that Israel's only possible response to Oct.7 was to wipe out Hamas' military capability, since stopping short of doing so - as Israel had done for decades - had manifestly failed to protect its own citizens. No government could allow that situation to endure. It's not Israel's doing that Hamas have used their own compatriots as human shields all along. I have no defence to offer for shooting at peaceful protesters or for supporting apartheid but the implication that such actions go even part of the way towards justifying Oct.7 is contemptible.

In the case of a "human shield" made up of innocent civilians (and a significant number of children) do you believe that they correct approach is to murder both the shield and the person holding the shield?

 

[Atlas]

Another 87 people killed last night, when Israel fired on a residential square.

We've seen footage of Israelis blowing up anything.
Wanton killing and destruction.

We've heard IDF soldiers talking about settlement, and every Palestinian is a terrorist be they child or adult.

This is, as evidenced by the ICJ ruling, a plausible genocide. They haven't made they ruling up cos they hate Israel are anti-semities or sympathetic to Hamas and their cause.

They have seen the abundance of evidence via footage to suggest as such.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

The idea that October 7th justifies killing 17k children, 2 thousand of them under 2, is contemptible.

The human shield logic is being used to justify anything and everything... because they use human sheilds, we can kill babies, it's not good enough. Where is the limit, could you justify killing a million people, how much is too much? The only way you can support it, is if you think a Palestinian life is worth less than an Israeli one.

 

[Judge Jules]

In the case of a "human shield" made up of innocent civilians (and a significant number of children) do you believe that they correct approach is to murder both the shield and the person holding the shield?

The person holding the shield has just murdered my countrymen and women (and a significant number of children). I am going to make sure he can never do that again. I will do all I can to try and spare the other innocent victims behind whom he is now sheltering and for whose sake, up till now, I have held back, but after Oct.7th priority 1 is to make sure he is never a threat again.

 

[Athens]

I'm not entirely sure that the IDF have been trying to spare other innocent victims...

 

[Mamma Mia]

" I will do all I can to try and spare the other innocent victims"

This is where it all falls apart in my opinion. It's quite bizarre to see someone I respect justify the murder of thousands of children and proclaim that there aren't better options.

 

[Bradley]

Wait these guys are so good at using human shields.........

So last week when the top dog got killed, there is footage of him sitting in a bombed out building, the only other people around had been foot soldiers. He wasn't in the basement of a school or hospital. He was running the streets. The top man. Not behind a human shield. Must have just been luck that he was out for a walk when they got him.

 

[Mamma Mia]

Wait these guys are so good at using human shields.........

So last week when the top dog got killed, there is footage of him sitting in a bombed out building, the only other people around had been foot soldiers. He wasn't in the basement of a school or hospital. He was running the streets. The top man. Not behind a human shield. Must have just been luck that he was out for a walk when they got him.

It's fucking insane that this excuse has convinced so many otherwise rational people.

Yeah, 17 thousand children were killed, but behind every one of them was a nasty man who had to die.

 

[keniget]

It's fucking insane that this excuse has convinced so many otherwise rational people.

Yeah, 17 thousand children were killed, but behind every one of them was a nasty man who had to die.

That's because it's not an excuse, it's a reality.

 

[Judge Jules]

The idea that October 7th justifies killing 17k children, 2 thousand of them under 2, is contemptible.

The human shield logic is being used to justify anything and everything... because they use human sheilds, we can kill babies, it's not good enough. Where is the limit, could you justify killing a million people, how much is too much? The only way you can support it, is if you think a Palestinian life is worth less than an Israeli one.

Oct.7th justifies killing Hamas in self-defence. If their policy of taking their own compatriots hostage to try and save themselves is allowed to succeed, they will be back for more. Oct.7th itself is proof of that given the limited nature of previous Israeli reaction, limited precisely because of those innocent civilians. Israel has not targeted them - Hamas dragged them into the firing-line.