if the new manager said he had a 5 year plan...
- Thread starter spider-Neil
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[quote author=DHSC link=topic=39468.msg1075709#msg1075709 date=1269399021]
I wouldn't mind if the plan was this:
1. Win League
2. Win League and Champions' League
3. Win League, Champions' League and FA Cup
4. Win League, Champions' League, FA Cup and League Cup
5. Win League, Champions' League, FA Cup, League Cup, Community Shield, Club World Championships, Merseyside Senior Cup, Biggin's U-11 League, African Cup of Nations, Wimbledon, US Masters, Super Bowl, US Presidential Elections, Stanley Cup, WWIII
Yeah, I could live with a 5 year plan.
[/quote]
i think id settle for this too 😉
I wouldn't mind if the plan was this:
1. Win League
2. Win League and Champions' League
3. Win League, Champions' League and FA Cup
4. Win League, Champions' League, FA Cup and League Cup
5. Win League, Champions' League, FA Cup, League Cup, Community Shield, Club World Championships, Merseyside Senior Cup, Biggin's U-11 League, African Cup of Nations, Wimbledon, US Masters, Super Bowl, US Presidential Elections, Stanley Cup, WWIII
Yeah, I could live with a 5 year plan.
[/quote]
i think id settle for this too 😉
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075858#msg1075858 date=1269441581]
He needs to go in the Summer. The squad needs a massive confidence lift either way, and the only other way I can see us doing that is if we get major investment and make at least one really BIG signing. ala Torres. Not that I have much faith in Rafa spending it well anyway.
If he stays and financially things stay as they are, there's a lack of confidence from the fact that it's a different season and the same old shit.
[/quote]
The longer we go without investment the more secure he is in his job anyway. If someone comes in and ploughs tens of millions into the club he will have noone to blame, we can afford to pay him off and we can give that money to someone like Mourinho who has a track record of getting success with cash at his disposal! Even the biggest Mourinho haters on his site have (sort of) acknowledged this!
He needs to go in the Summer. The squad needs a massive confidence lift either way, and the only other way I can see us doing that is if we get major investment and make at least one really BIG signing. ala Torres. Not that I have much faith in Rafa spending it well anyway.
If he stays and financially things stay as they are, there's a lack of confidence from the fact that it's a different season and the same old shit.
[/quote]
The longer we go without investment the more secure he is in his job anyway. If someone comes in and ploughs tens of millions into the club he will have noone to blame, we can afford to pay him off and we can give that money to someone like Mourinho who has a track record of getting success with cash at his disposal! Even the biggest Mourinho haters on his site have (sort of) acknowledged this!
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075881#msg1075881 date=1269445639]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075858#msg1075858 date=1269441581]
He needs to go in the Summer. The squad needs a massive confidence lift either way, and the only other way I can see us doing that is if we get major investment and make at least one really BIG signing. ala Torres. Not that I have much faith in Rafa spending it well anyway.
If he stays and financially things stay as they are, there's a lack of confidence from the fact that it's a different season and the same old shit.
[/quote]
The longer we go without investment the more secure he is in his job anyway. If someone comes in and ploughs tens of millions into the club he will have noone to blame, we can afford to pay him off and we can give that money to someone like Mourinho who has a track record of getting success with cash at his disposal! Even the biggest Mourinho haters on his site have (sort of) acknowledged this!
[/quote]
Not a chance, Richey.
You forget that most of the Mourinho-haters are Rafalutionaries; they'd just point to Mourinho's 'ultra-defensive' play and the crap players he's bought and say that Mourinho would be as big a failure as Rafa.
In other words, better the failure you know than the one you don't.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075858#msg1075858 date=1269441581]
He needs to go in the Summer. The squad needs a massive confidence lift either way, and the only other way I can see us doing that is if we get major investment and make at least one really BIG signing. ala Torres. Not that I have much faith in Rafa spending it well anyway.
If he stays and financially things stay as they are, there's a lack of confidence from the fact that it's a different season and the same old shit.
[/quote]
The longer we go without investment the more secure he is in his job anyway. If someone comes in and ploughs tens of millions into the club he will have noone to blame, we can afford to pay him off and we can give that money to someone like Mourinho who has a track record of getting success with cash at his disposal! Even the biggest Mourinho haters on his site have (sort of) acknowledged this!
[/quote]
Not a chance, Richey.
You forget that most of the Mourinho-haters are Rafalutionaries; they'd just point to Mourinho's 'ultra-defensive' play and the crap players he's bought and say that Mourinho would be as big a failure as Rafa.
In other words, better the failure you know than the one you don't.
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39468.msg1075884#msg1075884 date=1269445964]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075881#msg1075881 date=1269445639]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075858#msg1075858 date=1269441581]
He needs to go in the Summer. The squad needs a massive confidence lift either way, and the only other way I can see us doing that is if we get major investment and make at least one really BIG signing. ala Torres. Not that I have much faith in Rafa spending it well anyway.
If he stays and financially things stay as they are, there's a lack of confidence from the fact that it's a different season and the same old shit.
[/quote]
The longer we go without investment the more secure he is in his job anyway. If someone comes in and ploughs tens of millions into the club he will have noone to blame, we can afford to pay him off and we can give that money to someone like Mourinho who has a track record of getting success with cash at his disposal! Even the biggest Mourinho haters on his site have (sort of) acknowledged this!
[/quote]
Not a chance, Richey.
You forget that most of the Mourinho-haters are Rafalutionaries; they'd just point to Mourinho's 'ultra-defensive' play and the crap players he's bought and say that Mourinho would be as big a failure as Rafa.
In other words, better the failure you know than the one you don't.
[/quote]
Yep, but better the failure with the experience of actually winning the damn thing!
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075881#msg1075881 date=1269445639]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075858#msg1075858 date=1269441581]
He needs to go in the Summer. The squad needs a massive confidence lift either way, and the only other way I can see us doing that is if we get major investment and make at least one really BIG signing. ala Torres. Not that I have much faith in Rafa spending it well anyway.
If he stays and financially things stay as they are, there's a lack of confidence from the fact that it's a different season and the same old shit.
[/quote]
The longer we go without investment the more secure he is in his job anyway. If someone comes in and ploughs tens of millions into the club he will have noone to blame, we can afford to pay him off and we can give that money to someone like Mourinho who has a track record of getting success with cash at his disposal! Even the biggest Mourinho haters on his site have (sort of) acknowledged this!
[/quote]
Not a chance, Richey.
You forget that most of the Mourinho-haters are Rafalutionaries; they'd just point to Mourinho's 'ultra-defensive' play and the crap players he's bought and say that Mourinho would be as big a failure as Rafa.
In other words, better the failure you know than the one you don't.
[/quote]
Yep, but better the failure with the experience of actually winning the damn thing!
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075857#msg1075857 date=1269441345]
Whether he did or didn't is neither here nor there. If the players HAVE lost confidence in him and he can no longer get them playing for him then I doubt they will suddenly start doing so again.
[/quote]
With regards to the point i was making mate, i don't think it is personally. He's proven that he can get the best out of the squad in past seasons, so i see no reason to doubt that he can do so again.
Whether he did or didn't is neither here nor there. If the players HAVE lost confidence in him and he can no longer get them playing for him then I doubt they will suddenly start doing so again.
[/quote]
With regards to the point i was making mate, i don't think it is personally. He's proven that he can get the best out of the squad in past seasons, so i see no reason to doubt that he can do so again.
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39468.msg1075892#msg1075892 date=1269446600]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075857#msg1075857 date=1269441345]
Whether he did or didn't is neither here nor there. If the players HAVE lost confidence in him and he can no longer get them playing for him then I doubt they will suddenly start doing so again.
[/quote]
With regards to the point i was making mate, i don't think it is personally. He's proven that he can get the best out of the squad in past seasons, so i see no reason to doubt that he can do so again.
[/quote]
Last season was excellent in terms of progress, but surrounding that we've had a Summer of waste (to the tune of £40m) and we've had a completely disastrous season to follow, with players looking short on confidence, belief, and a squad that's come short on quality and depth.
It's difficult not to point the finger (at Rafa) over any of that. Let's not forget aswell, last season Arsenal and Chelsea were out of sorts and City were only just getting themselves together. Now Everton, Spurs and Villa also pose a reasonable threat. Alot can change in a year of football, and over the course of 5 seasons the potential for us to capitulate league wise has always been a realistic one.
Over the course of 5 seasons of 'league' football, how much of is has been played at an acceptable level, for a side that was supposed to show consistent challenging aspirations?
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075857#msg1075857 date=1269441345]
Whether he did or didn't is neither here nor there. If the players HAVE lost confidence in him and he can no longer get them playing for him then I doubt they will suddenly start doing so again.
[/quote]
With regards to the point i was making mate, i don't think it is personally. He's proven that he can get the best out of the squad in past seasons, so i see no reason to doubt that he can do so again.
[/quote]
Last season was excellent in terms of progress, but surrounding that we've had a Summer of waste (to the tune of £40m) and we've had a completely disastrous season to follow, with players looking short on confidence, belief, and a squad that's come short on quality and depth.
It's difficult not to point the finger (at Rafa) over any of that. Let's not forget aswell, last season Arsenal and Chelsea were out of sorts and City were only just getting themselves together. Now Everton, Spurs and Villa also pose a reasonable threat. Alot can change in a year of football, and over the course of 5 seasons the potential for us to capitulate league wise has always been a realistic one.
Over the course of 5 seasons of 'league' football, how much of is has been played at an acceptable level, for a side that was supposed to show consistent challenging aspirations?
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39468.msg1075884#msg1075884 date=1269445964]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075881#msg1075881 date=1269445639]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075858#msg1075858 date=1269441581]
He needs to go in the Summer. The squad needs a massive confidence lift either way, and the only other way I can see us doing that is if we get major investment and make at least one really BIG signing. ala Torres. Not that I have much faith in Rafa spending it well anyway.
If he stays and financially things stay as they are, there's a lack of confidence from the fact that it's a different season and the same old shit.
[/quote]
The longer we go without investment the more secure he is in his job anyway. If someone comes in and ploughs tens of millions into the club he will have noone to blame, we can afford to pay him off and we can give that money to someone like Mourinho who has a track record of getting success with cash at his disposal! Even the biggest Mourinho haters on his site have (sort of) acknowledged this!
[/quote]
Not a chance, Richey.
You forget that most of the Mourinho-haters are Rafalutionaries; they'd just point to Mourinho's 'ultra-defensive' play and the crap players he's bought and say that Mourinho would be as big a failure as Rafa.
In other words, better the failure you know than the one you don't.
[/quote]
I dont have a problem with jose its just;
a) he was given a ridiculous amount of money (this wouldn't happen here)
b) he inherited a top two team (we are a top 4 team)
the difference in circumstances between jose's title winning chelsea and a liverpool team he would inherit are like night and day.
you guys go on all day about the money rafa has been given but c'mon you aren't stupid you can definately see the difference with jose spending a couple of hundred million (in one lump sum) to improve a top 2 side and rafa spending a couple of hundred million on a top 4 side where half of that money is generated via sales.
what about manu with a manager of 15+ years experience when you join going out and spending vast sums of money even though they ALREADY have a head start on you, but people look at the amount gross that rafa has spend and the amount gross manu have spent. lets be generous and say rafa has spent the same as manu in the 5 years he has been there, manu had a HEAD start so if they have a head start and we are spending the same as them (which we patently haven't been) how the FUCK are you supposed to over take them?
I liken it to a 100m dash
a) runner 'a' (manu) is 50 meters ahead when the trigger is pulled
b) runner 'b' (l'pool) is at the starting line when the trigger is pulled
if they run at the same speed (spend a comparable amount of money) how the FUCK is runner 'a' supposed to catch runner 'b'? the same analogy can be applied to chelsea and liverpool.
people can point to arsenal and say they are challenging despite fuck all money spent, this is true but rafa has finished ahead of arsenal in 3 of the 5 he has been in charge.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075881#msg1075881 date=1269445639]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075858#msg1075858 date=1269441581]
He needs to go in the Summer. The squad needs a massive confidence lift either way, and the only other way I can see us doing that is if we get major investment and make at least one really BIG signing. ala Torres. Not that I have much faith in Rafa spending it well anyway.
If he stays and financially things stay as they are, there's a lack of confidence from the fact that it's a different season and the same old shit.
[/quote]
The longer we go without investment the more secure he is in his job anyway. If someone comes in and ploughs tens of millions into the club he will have noone to blame, we can afford to pay him off and we can give that money to someone like Mourinho who has a track record of getting success with cash at his disposal! Even the biggest Mourinho haters on his site have (sort of) acknowledged this!
[/quote]
Not a chance, Richey.
You forget that most of the Mourinho-haters are Rafalutionaries; they'd just point to Mourinho's 'ultra-defensive' play and the crap players he's bought and say that Mourinho would be as big a failure as Rafa.
In other words, better the failure you know than the one you don't.
[/quote]
I dont have a problem with jose its just;
a) he was given a ridiculous amount of money (this wouldn't happen here)
b) he inherited a top two team (we are a top 4 team)
the difference in circumstances between jose's title winning chelsea and a liverpool team he would inherit are like night and day.
you guys go on all day about the money rafa has been given but c'mon you aren't stupid you can definately see the difference with jose spending a couple of hundred million (in one lump sum) to improve a top 2 side and rafa spending a couple of hundred million on a top 4 side where half of that money is generated via sales.
what about manu with a manager of 15+ years experience when you join going out and spending vast sums of money even though they ALREADY have a head start on you, but people look at the amount gross that rafa has spend and the amount gross manu have spent. lets be generous and say rafa has spent the same as manu in the 5 years he has been there, manu had a HEAD start so if they have a head start and we are spending the same as them (which we patently haven't been) how the FUCK are you supposed to over take them?
I liken it to a 100m dash
a) runner 'a' (manu) is 50 meters ahead when the trigger is pulled
b) runner 'b' (l'pool) is at the starting line when the trigger is pulled
if they run at the same speed (spend a comparable amount of money) how the FUCK is runner 'a' supposed to catch runner 'b'? the same analogy can be applied to chelsea and liverpool.
people can point to arsenal and say they are challenging despite fuck all money spent, this is true but rafa has finished ahead of arsenal in 3 of the 5 he has been in charge.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075898#msg1075898 date=1269447041]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39468.msg1075892#msg1075892 date=1269446600]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075857#msg1075857 date=1269441345]
Whether he did or didn't is neither here nor there. If the players HAVE lost confidence in him and he can no longer get them playing for him then I doubt they will suddenly start doing so again.
[/quote]
With regards to the point i was making mate, i don't think it is personally. He's proven that he can get the best out of the squad in past seasons, so i see no reason to doubt that he can do so again.
[/quote]
Last season was excellent in terms of progress, but surrounding that we've had a Summer of waste (to the tune of £40m) and we've had a completely disastrous season to follow, with players looking short on confidence, belief, and a squad that's come short on quality and depth.
It's difficult not to point the finger (at Rafa) over any of that. Let's not forget aswell, last season Arsenal and Chelsea were out of sorts and City were only just getting themselves together. Now Everton, Spurs and Villa also pose a reasonable threat. Alot can change in a year of football, and over the course of 5 seasons the potential for us to capitulate league wise has always been a realistic one.
Over the course of 5 seasons of 'league' football, how much of is has been played at an acceptable level, for a side that was supposed to show consistent challenging aspirations?[/quote]
*1st bit in bold*
I tend to agree with most of that Mark. It's quite clear that the summer where in which we wasted £40m has hurt us badly. But if Rafa had been given the chance to reinvest the Keane money + had say our usual transfer kitty to spend (instead of this shite sell before you can buy policy enforced on us by G&H), i wonder how we'd be sitting in the league table right now? This wasn't to be of course, the yanks failed us and Rafa wasn't allowed the opportunity to correct his mistakes.
*2nd bit in bold*
Taking into account the shite squad we had when he took over, i honestly didn't expect us to challenge for the title for quite a while (i still hoped though). Up until this season we've progressed steadily under Rafa's management imo, so unless something drastically changes with regards to the club ownership i hope he gets another season with us.
How many seasons have you actually expected us to challenge for the title over the last 5 seasons mark?
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39468.msg1075892#msg1075892 date=1269446600]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075857#msg1075857 date=1269441345]
Whether he did or didn't is neither here nor there. If the players HAVE lost confidence in him and he can no longer get them playing for him then I doubt they will suddenly start doing so again.
[/quote]
With regards to the point i was making mate, i don't think it is personally. He's proven that he can get the best out of the squad in past seasons, so i see no reason to doubt that he can do so again.
[/quote]
Last season was excellent in terms of progress, but surrounding that we've had a Summer of waste (to the tune of £40m) and we've had a completely disastrous season to follow, with players looking short on confidence, belief, and a squad that's come short on quality and depth.
It's difficult not to point the finger (at Rafa) over any of that. Let's not forget aswell, last season Arsenal and Chelsea were out of sorts and City were only just getting themselves together. Now Everton, Spurs and Villa also pose a reasonable threat. Alot can change in a year of football, and over the course of 5 seasons the potential for us to capitulate league wise has always been a realistic one.
Over the course of 5 seasons of 'league' football, how much of is has been played at an acceptable level, for a side that was supposed to show consistent challenging aspirations?[/quote]
*1st bit in bold*
I tend to agree with most of that Mark. It's quite clear that the summer where in which we wasted £40m has hurt us badly. But if Rafa had been given the chance to reinvest the Keane money + had say our usual transfer kitty to spend (instead of this shite sell before you can buy policy enforced on us by G&H), i wonder how we'd be sitting in the league table right now? This wasn't to be of course, the yanks failed us and Rafa wasn't allowed the opportunity to correct his mistakes.
*2nd bit in bold*
Taking into account the shite squad we had when he took over, i honestly didn't expect us to challenge for the title for quite a while (i still hoped though). Up until this season we've progressed steadily under Rafa's management imo, so unless something drastically changes with regards to the club ownership i hope he gets another season with us.
How many seasons have you actually expected us to challenge for the title over the last 5 seasons mark?
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39468.msg1075916#msg1075916 date=1269448794]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075898#msg1075898 date=1269447041]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39468.msg1075892#msg1075892 date=1269446600]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075857#msg1075857 date=1269441345]
Whether he did or didn't is neither here nor there. If the players HAVE lost confidence in him and he can no longer get them playing for him then I doubt they will suddenly start doing so again.
[/quote]
With regards to the point i was making mate, i don't think it is personally. He's proven that he can get the best out of the squad in past seasons, so i see no reason to doubt that he can do so again.
[/quote]
Last season was excellent in terms of progress, but surrounding that we've had a Summer of waste (to the tune of £40m) and we've had a completely disastrous season to follow, with players looking short on confidence, belief, and a squad that's come short on quality and depth.
It's difficult not to point the finger (at Rafa) over any of that. Let's not forget aswell, last season Arsenal and Chelsea were out of sorts and City were only just getting themselves together. Now Everton, Spurs and Villa also pose a reasonable threat. Alot can change in a year of football, and over the course of 5 seasons the potential for us to capitulate league wise has always been a realistic one.
Over the course of 5 seasons of 'league' football, how much of is has been played at an acceptable level, for a side that was supposed to show consistent challenging aspirations?[/quote]
*1st bit in bold*
I tend to agree with most of that Mark. It's quite clear that the summer where in which we wasted £40m has hurt us badly. If Rafa had been given the chance to reinvest the Keane money + had say our usual transfer kitty to spend (instead of this shite sell before you can buy policy enforced on us by G&H), i wonder how we'd be sitting in the league table right now? This wasn't to be of course, the yanks failed us and Rafa wasn't allowed the opportunity to correct his mistakes.
*2nd bit in bold*
Taking into account the shite squad we had when he took over, i honestly didn't expect us to challenge for the title for quite a while(i still hoped though). Up until this season we've progressed steadily under Rafa's management imo, so unless something drastically changes with regards to the club ownership i hope he gets another season with us.
How many seasons have you actually expected us to challenge for the title over the last 5 seasons mark?
[/quote]
I wanted us to challenge at some point, and we did last season. The problem I can't get to grips with is that when in a position of strength, we (or rather, Rafa) fails to capitalise. Last season was a perfect opportunity in terms of threatening United, we capitalised on Arsenal and Chelsea's off season but we didn't capitalise in the transfer market. And ditto this season really, after a season of great promise, we failed to capitalise in the transfer market. I've not got much quarms over the quality of Johnson and Aquilani, but I feel there were other priorities and Rafa chose the wrong areas to concentrate on.
I've said this alot on here, but for how astute he 'can' be, sometimes he makes the most basic of 'wood for trees' errors.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075898#msg1075898 date=1269447041]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39468.msg1075892#msg1075892 date=1269446600]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075857#msg1075857 date=1269441345]
Whether he did or didn't is neither here nor there. If the players HAVE lost confidence in him and he can no longer get them playing for him then I doubt they will suddenly start doing so again.
[/quote]
With regards to the point i was making mate, i don't think it is personally. He's proven that he can get the best out of the squad in past seasons, so i see no reason to doubt that he can do so again.
[/quote]
Last season was excellent in terms of progress, but surrounding that we've had a Summer of waste (to the tune of £40m) and we've had a completely disastrous season to follow, with players looking short on confidence, belief, and a squad that's come short on quality and depth.
It's difficult not to point the finger (at Rafa) over any of that. Let's not forget aswell, last season Arsenal and Chelsea were out of sorts and City were only just getting themselves together. Now Everton, Spurs and Villa also pose a reasonable threat. Alot can change in a year of football, and over the course of 5 seasons the potential for us to capitulate league wise has always been a realistic one.
Over the course of 5 seasons of 'league' football, how much of is has been played at an acceptable level, for a side that was supposed to show consistent challenging aspirations?[/quote]
*1st bit in bold*
I tend to agree with most of that Mark. It's quite clear that the summer where in which we wasted £40m has hurt us badly. If Rafa had been given the chance to reinvest the Keane money + had say our usual transfer kitty to spend (instead of this shite sell before you can buy policy enforced on us by G&H), i wonder how we'd be sitting in the league table right now? This wasn't to be of course, the yanks failed us and Rafa wasn't allowed the opportunity to correct his mistakes.
*2nd bit in bold*
Taking into account the shite squad we had when he took over, i honestly didn't expect us to challenge for the title for quite a while(i still hoped though). Up until this season we've progressed steadily under Rafa's management imo, so unless something drastically changes with regards to the club ownership i hope he gets another season with us.
How many seasons have you actually expected us to challenge for the title over the last 5 seasons mark?
[/quote]
I wanted us to challenge at some point, and we did last season. The problem I can't get to grips with is that when in a position of strength, we (or rather, Rafa) fails to capitalise. Last season was a perfect opportunity in terms of threatening United, we capitalised on Arsenal and Chelsea's off season but we didn't capitalise in the transfer market. And ditto this season really, after a season of great promise, we failed to capitalise in the transfer market. I've not got much quarms over the quality of Johnson and Aquilani, but I feel there were other priorities and Rafa chose the wrong areas to concentrate on.
I've said this alot on here, but for how astute he 'can' be, sometimes he makes the most basic of 'wood for trees' errors.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075919#msg1075919 date=1269449083]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39468.msg1075916#msg1075916 date=1269448794]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075898#msg1075898 date=1269447041]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39468.msg1075892#msg1075892 date=1269446600]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075857#msg1075857 date=1269441345]
Whether he did or didn't is neither here nor there. If the players HAVE lost confidence in him and he can no longer get them playing for him then I doubt they will suddenly start doing so again.
[/quote]
With regards to the point i was making mate, i don't think it is personally. He's proven that he can get the best out of the squad in past seasons, so i see no reason to doubt that he can do so again.
[/quote]
Last season was excellent in terms of progress, but surrounding that we've had a Summer of waste (to the tune of £40m) and we've had a completely disastrous season to follow, with players looking short on confidence, belief, and a squad that's come short on quality and depth.
It's difficult not to point the finger (at Rafa) over any of that. Let's not forget aswell, last season Arsenal and Chelsea were out of sorts and City were only just getting themselves together. Now Everton, Spurs and Villa also pose a reasonable threat. Alot can change in a year of football, and over the course of 5 seasons the potential for us to capitulate league wise has always been a realistic one.
Over the course of 5 seasons of 'league' football, how much of is has been played at an acceptable level, for a side that was supposed to show consistent challenging aspirations?[/quote]
*1st bit in bold*
I tend to agree with most of that Mark. It's quite clear that the summer where in which we wasted £40m has hurt us badly. If Rafa had been given the chance to reinvest the Keane money + had say our usual transfer kitty to spend (instead of this shite sell before you can buy policy enforced on us by G&H), i wonder how we'd be sitting in the league table right now? This wasn't to be of course, the yanks failed us and Rafa wasn't allowed the opportunity to correct his mistakes.
*2nd bit in bold*
Taking into account the shite squad we had when he took over, i honestly didn't expect us to challenge for the title for quite a while(i still hoped though). Up until this season we've progressed steadily under Rafa's management imo, so unless something drastically changes with regards to the club ownership i hope he gets another season with us.
How many seasons have you actually expected us to challenge for the title over the last 5 seasons mark?
[/quote]
I wanted us to challenge at some point, and we did last season. The problem I can't get to grips with is that when in a position of strength, we (or rather, Rafa) fails to capitalise. Last season was a perfect opportunity in terms of threatening United, we capitalised on Arsenal and Chelsea's off season but we didn't capitalise in the transfer market. And ditto this season really, after a season of great promise, we failed to capitalise in the transfer market. I've not got much quarms over the quality of Johnson and Aquilani, but I feel there were other priorities and Rafa chose the wrong areas to concentrate on.
I've said this alot on here, but for how astute he 'can' be, sometimes he makes the most basic of 'wood for trees' errors.
[/quote]
how can you capitalise from a position of strength when the board gives you no money and the only purchases come from the money generated by sales, surely by definition you will remain static? unfortunately we didn't remain static we went backwards as man city heavily invested, chelsea got their shit together as did arsenal. if ever there was a season for the owners to back the manager it was in the summer but they didn't spend a penny. I am 100% convinced the reason babel wasn't sold in jan was rafa didn't trust the owners to give him the money from the sale.
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39468.msg1075916#msg1075916 date=1269448794]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075898#msg1075898 date=1269447041]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39468.msg1075892#msg1075892 date=1269446600]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39468.msg1075857#msg1075857 date=1269441345]
Whether he did or didn't is neither here nor there. If the players HAVE lost confidence in him and he can no longer get them playing for him then I doubt they will suddenly start doing so again.
[/quote]
With regards to the point i was making mate, i don't think it is personally. He's proven that he can get the best out of the squad in past seasons, so i see no reason to doubt that he can do so again.
[/quote]
Last season was excellent in terms of progress, but surrounding that we've had a Summer of waste (to the tune of £40m) and we've had a completely disastrous season to follow, with players looking short on confidence, belief, and a squad that's come short on quality and depth.
It's difficult not to point the finger (at Rafa) over any of that. Let's not forget aswell, last season Arsenal and Chelsea were out of sorts and City were only just getting themselves together. Now Everton, Spurs and Villa also pose a reasonable threat. Alot can change in a year of football, and over the course of 5 seasons the potential for us to capitulate league wise has always been a realistic one.
Over the course of 5 seasons of 'league' football, how much of is has been played at an acceptable level, for a side that was supposed to show consistent challenging aspirations?[/quote]
*1st bit in bold*
I tend to agree with most of that Mark. It's quite clear that the summer where in which we wasted £40m has hurt us badly. If Rafa had been given the chance to reinvest the Keane money + had say our usual transfer kitty to spend (instead of this shite sell before you can buy policy enforced on us by G&H), i wonder how we'd be sitting in the league table right now? This wasn't to be of course, the yanks failed us and Rafa wasn't allowed the opportunity to correct his mistakes.
*2nd bit in bold*
Taking into account the shite squad we had when he took over, i honestly didn't expect us to challenge for the title for quite a while(i still hoped though). Up until this season we've progressed steadily under Rafa's management imo, so unless something drastically changes with regards to the club ownership i hope he gets another season with us.
How many seasons have you actually expected us to challenge for the title over the last 5 seasons mark?
[/quote]
I wanted us to challenge at some point, and we did last season. The problem I can't get to grips with is that when in a position of strength, we (or rather, Rafa) fails to capitalise. Last season was a perfect opportunity in terms of threatening United, we capitalised on Arsenal and Chelsea's off season but we didn't capitalise in the transfer market. And ditto this season really, after a season of great promise, we failed to capitalise in the transfer market. I've not got much quarms over the quality of Johnson and Aquilani, but I feel there were other priorities and Rafa chose the wrong areas to concentrate on.
I've said this alot on here, but for how astute he 'can' be, sometimes he makes the most basic of 'wood for trees' errors.
[/quote]
how can you capitalise from a position of strength when the board gives you no money and the only purchases come from the money generated by sales, surely by definition you will remain static? unfortunately we didn't remain static we went backwards as man city heavily invested, chelsea got their shit together as did arsenal. if ever there was a season for the owners to back the manager it was in the summer but they didn't spend a penny. I am 100% convinced the reason babel wasn't sold in jan was rafa didn't trust the owners to give him the money from the sale.
Neil, you can make that excuse for this season, but the fact remains that we spent heavily for 2 years prior to that, which includes the £40m the previous Summer, Mascherano, Skrtel, etc. Have you thought about it from the viewpoint that Rafa may not have ended up short of funds had he spent well the during the Summer of '08?
The recession has also been a factor, which just goes to show how imperative it is that you're sure of your acquisitions before you sign them. Everyone makes mistakes, but that entire transfer window was a joke and it's had devastating consequences.
The recession has also been a factor, which just goes to show how imperative it is that you're sure of your acquisitions before you sign them. Everyone makes mistakes, but that entire transfer window was a joke and it's had devastating consequences.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39468.msg1075925#msg1075925 date=1269450320]
Neil, you can make that excuse for this season, but the fact remains that we spent heavily for 2 years prior to that, which includes the £40m the previous Summer, Mascherano, Skrtel, etc. Have you thought about it from the viewpoint that Rafa may not have ended up short of funds had he spent well the during the Summer of '08?
The recession has also been a factor, which just goes to show how imperative it is that you're sure of your acquisitions before you sign them. Everyone makes mistakes, but that entire transfer window was a joke and it's had devastating consequences.
[/quote]
ALL managers make fuck ups, the reason no one looks at fergie, jose, and to a lesser extent whinger is they have won the league.
Neil, you can make that excuse for this season, but the fact remains that we spent heavily for 2 years prior to that, which includes the £40m the previous Summer, Mascherano, Skrtel, etc. Have you thought about it from the viewpoint that Rafa may not have ended up short of funds had he spent well the during the Summer of '08?
The recession has also been a factor, which just goes to show how imperative it is that you're sure of your acquisitions before you sign them. Everyone makes mistakes, but that entire transfer window was a joke and it's had devastating consequences.
[/quote]
ALL managers make fuck ups, the reason no one looks at fergie, jose, and to a lesser extent whinger is they have won the league.
how can you keep going on about lack of money? have you not been paying attention to the team this year. if anything, having witnessed rafa's "performance" this season we should be fucking overjoyed that he wasn't given any more money
our failures are down to his poor management. he wasn't forced to play n'gog up front. he could have played kuyt, after pacheco's good display he should have immeadiately stuck with him. he could have not loaned out nemeth. nope it was his choice to back n'gog. why? because he likes shit slow mediocre players that can do a job. and work haaad of course work haaaaaaad. fuck me.
a few years ago he could have given game time to pongolle, or developed one of the other kids, or brought in a decent striker then, played babel up front. any of those obvious things he could have done to leave us better off for the future. instead he wasted that time having sex with voronin.
even now after the portsmouth game the penny could have dropped for him. instead captain stupid chose of his own voilition to pick a rapeworthy team.
our failures are down to his poor management. he wasn't forced to play n'gog up front. he could have played kuyt, after pacheco's good display he should have immeadiately stuck with him. he could have not loaned out nemeth. nope it was his choice to back n'gog. why? because he likes shit slow mediocre players that can do a job. and work haaad of course work haaaaaaad. fuck me.
a few years ago he could have given game time to pongolle, or developed one of the other kids, or brought in a decent striker then, played babel up front. any of those obvious things he could have done to leave us better off for the future. instead he wasted that time having sex with voronin.
even now after the portsmouth game the penny could have dropped for him. instead captain stupid chose of his own voilition to pick a rapeworthy team.
Mark:
It's hard to kick on when you have to sell before you can buy. In fact since that summer (Yes Rafa fucked up to the tune of £40m, i'm no RCDNW!), they've taken about £18m profit from player sales that could of been used to solve our LB and back up striker issues. Maybe the money spent on Johnson and Aquilani could have been spread around the squad better, but then we'd only have been doing what everyone on here was totally fed up with (the old quality over quantity argument).
I remember Vlad stating how short sighted G&H had been by not choosing to invest in the squad. Turns out he was bang on!
It's hard to kick on when you have to sell before you can buy. In fact since that summer (Yes Rafa fucked up to the tune of £40m, i'm no RCDNW!), they've taken about £18m profit from player sales that could of been used to solve our LB and back up striker issues. Maybe the money spent on Johnson and Aquilani could have been spread around the squad better, but then we'd only have been doing what everyone on here was totally fed up with (the old quality over quantity argument).
I remember Vlad stating how short sighted G&H had been by not choosing to invest in the squad. Turns out he was bang on!
They'll have an x year plan whether they say it or not. Should they say they're going to win the league next year?
Sadly I think that's a long way off.
Sadly I think that's a long way off.
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=39468.msg1075980#msg1075980 date=1269459584]
They'll have an x year plan whether they say it or not. Should they say they're going to win the league next year?
Sadly I think that's a long way off.
[/quote]
I don't really get the point anyway.
Houllier hung himself with his 5yr plan quote.
Rafa didn't make promises (probably on the back of Houllier's own fuck up), but said money wasn't necessarily important, and pointed to his success in Spain and breaking up the domination of Madrid and Barca. He then became a manager who moaned about money, or a lack of and used it to explain (excuse?) a lack of success.
He's since gone on to say we'll finish 4th.
They'll have an x year plan whether they say it or not. Should they say they're going to win the league next year?
Sadly I think that's a long way off.
[/quote]
I don't really get the point anyway.
Houllier hung himself with his 5yr plan quote.
Rafa didn't make promises (probably on the back of Houllier's own fuck up), but said money wasn't necessarily important, and pointed to his success in Spain and breaking up the domination of Madrid and Barca. He then became a manager who moaned about money, or a lack of and used it to explain (excuse?) a lack of success.
He's since gone on to say we'll finish 4th.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39468.msg1075928#msg1075928 date=1269450496]
ALL managers make fuck ups, the reason no one looks at fergie, jose, and to a lesser extent whinger is they have won the league.
[/quote]
This is the crux of the matter isn't it? Post-Istanbul he had a lot of currency and a bit wider berth for error. It's been a bit barren the past years now and he's spent that currency. If we were in touching reach of the leaders or at least comfortably in the Champions League places or hadn't had two straight disastrous transfer seasons or hadn't been knocked out of the Champions League at the group stage or....
ALL managers make fuck ups, the reason no one looks at fergie, jose, and to a lesser extent whinger is they have won the league.
[/quote]
This is the crux of the matter isn't it? Post-Istanbul he had a lot of currency and a bit wider berth for error. It's been a bit barren the past years now and he's spent that currency. If we were in touching reach of the leaders or at least comfortably in the Champions League places or hadn't had two straight disastrous transfer seasons or hadn't been knocked out of the Champions League at the group stage or....
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