Benitez to be Newcastle Manager..
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I think they both deserve to be on there, course they do. We're still in the top three English teams since the turn of the century for silverware won, and that's thanks mostly to those two.
Le Gems, for a much debated fee.
Also, wasn't Cisse agreed that season, but was allowed to stay at Auxerre for another year?
It was hardly novel, though, such caution away from home in such ties. Paisley's teams won cups playing some pretty dour (but clever) stuff on their way to European Cup successes. It was admired back then because it was a rational improvement on the naivete and tactical simplicity of other British sides in Europe. Both Ged and Benitez adopted similar tactics when they - rightly - saw that in most other respects their team was inferior to their opponents. So what? If we ever get back into Europe I suspect Brendan will have to learn a few lessons the hard way in this respect. Picking away at how old tournaments were won is surely a bit pointless. Ged and Rafa encountered problems when they proved too inflexible in domestic games - both should have been more attack-minded, more confident and bold in countless matches. This obsession with what they did in Europe is a distraction.
I can't remember the net figures off the top of my head, but it was about £12m a season, I think.
That might not sound a lot, but when GH came in our revenues were £45m PA. When Rafa left they were closer to £180m.
Inflation was a very significant factor in prices over those 10-11 years. It's ultra-nerdy, so most just refuse to consider it, but that's not my fault, and it doesn't make me wrong.
EDIT: GH spent around £65m net over his 5 years, that's £13m per season. RB spent around £70m net over his 6 years, or a little under £12m per season. That's without making ANY adjustment for inflation between 1999 and 2009.
I guess taking into consideration TPI there's not much in it, I read that Rafa raised 60% of his revenue in the sale of his own players aswell. You could argue it was a means to an end, but that wasn't always the case, it was often the early realisation that he'd made a mistake in the transfer market, whereas Houllier would be stubborn and try to make his signings work, waiting a season or two too many to get shut.
The gross spends were as follows:
£147m Houllier
£288m Benitez
But Houllier's net spend per season is £13.3m, while Benitez's is £10.5m.
It's a much of a muchness, we can't really use a net spend to say that Benitez "spent" £10.5m a season, because there were two seasons were Benitez spent close to £80m on transfers, something Houllier never did. But Rafa managed money better in terms of balancing the books, which is commendable in itself, but it still doesn't detract from the fact that it was alot of money wasted and as I said, 60% of his sales were his own players. His hand wasn't forced on all of them, surely? There's not many players he sold that we were unhappy to see go.
£147m Houllier
£288m Benitez
But Houllier's net spend per season is £13.3m, while Benitez's is £10.5m.
It's a much of a muchness, we can't really use a net spend to say that Benitez "spent" £10.5m a season, because there were two seasons were Benitez spent close to £80m on transfers, something Houllier never did. But Rafa managed money better in terms of balancing the books, which is commendable in itself, but it still doesn't detract from the fact that it was alot of money wasted and as I said, 60% of his sales were his own players. His hand wasn't forced on all of them, surely? There's not many players he sold that we were unhappy to see go.
Look, I'm not saying there weren't problems. But I do think it's a myth that needs shattering that he spent beyond all reason, and without precedent. The big spending really started under Houllier. The club (I remember this well, so I don't know why others don't seem to) was already financially stretched when Benitez came in. At the very least people should lay off him for his spending, but IMO they should also look a lot closer at what Houllier spent if they want to know why Benitez often struggled to really go big in the market those first few years.
I'm not trying to say that you aren't, I'm trying to balance the argument, I'd made the point that Houllier spent more Net, without accounting for inflation, the flip of that is that Houllier would generally only bring in two relatively big signings per season (and that would include the likes of Finnan and Kewell) and thus had a smaller squad to accumulate and generate revenue from. Benitez bought more and sold more. Agreed though, for the first few years he did pay the price for Houllier's poor spending. But another myth is that Benitez was badly done to because of the net spend figures. That still doesn't take away from the fact that over two windows 2008 and 2009 he bought £20m Keane, £17m Aquilani, £7m Dosenna, £9m Riera, £3.5m Cavalieri, £17.5m Johnson and £2 Krygiakos. He'd also bought Mascherano and Skrtel early in 2008.
Benitez was building towards the future, Houllier just couldn't be arsed evidently (OK I'm being harsh).
A 22 year old Warnock, wasn't given a single game by Houllier. NOT ONE!
Three years after Houllier left, Rafa had pretty much got rid of everyone of his players.
Only Finnan, Hyypiä, Riise, Kewell, Gerrard and Carra survived.
Technically neither Gerrard nor Carra were "his" players.
So let's look at the present day squad. Three years have gone since Rafa left and who do we have left?
Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Lucas.
Then add, Shelvey, Suso, Sterling, Kelly, Robinson and Wisdom to that.
There's probably more but my point is, Rafa left a legacy, which is still alive.
Now I don't know what legacy Houllier left but whatever it was, Rafa quickly killed it .
A 22 year old Warnock, wasn't given a single game by Houllier. NOT ONE!
Three years after Houllier left, Rafa had pretty much got rid of everyone of his players.
Only Finnan, Hyypiä, Riise, Kewell, Gerrard and Carra survived.
Technically neither Gerrard nor Carra were "his" players.
So let's look at the present day squad. Three years have gone since Rafa left and who do we have left?
Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Lucas.
Then add, Shelvey, Suso, Sterling, Kelly, Robinson and Wisdom to that.
There's probably more but my point is, Rafa left a legacy, which is still alive.
Now I don't know what legacy Houllier left but whatever it was, Rafa quickly killed it .
Of course, net spending doesn't tell the whole story, but it definitely tells a better story than gross figures (not that I'm saying you think it doesn't). Both need to be considered.
It's not exactly a legacy though is it? We've got a keeper and a centre back. I'm not overly sold on Lucas, Johnson has never really justified the outlay for me and Skrtel is as good as gone. Then out of the youngsters you've listed, there's only really Sterling you could say looks nailed on to make it, the rest there are still question marks over, particularly Wisdom, Robinson and Kelly. There's no real out and out gem in there, and when you consider the amount of kids that Rafa brought in, it should be the minimum expected really. We weren't left in a particularly healthy state by either manager at youth or squad level, all things considered.
Question mark over Kelly who just signed a new contract?
These things take time, but we've got an academy that's producing players.
I'd take that group of youth players ahead of Cheyrou, LeTallec, Vignal and Medjani.
Since when has signing a new contract been an indication of anything? Skrtel signed one last Summer and now looks like he's going. He's also INCREDIBLY injury prone, it's not a versus Houllier, they both left us in fairly poor states at both levels given the amount they invested in players. And the one's you listed don't exactly suggest anything other than potential, no one has come bursting through demanding a first team place. Yes it's better than what Houllier left us with, but then the reserve and youth set up had more investment under Benitez.
Really? Holy cow.
That'll also have a lot to do with who was running the club off the field at the relevant times though.
Not really. The vast amount of that difference will be down to increases in TV money and CL money.
When he was appointed Commercial Director in 2007, Ian Ayre couldn’t believe the state that Liverpool Football Club was in, in regards to the managerial infrastructure at the club. In an interview with Management Today, Ayre said
“Both as a fan, and as someone who’d worked on the commercial side of football, it was pretty evident that Liverpool wasn’t punching its weight. It hadn’t really capitalised on the growth of football. Revenues had grown for all clubs almost by default because of the size of media contracts and so on, but in Liverpool’s case, the club hadn’t geared itself up to support and manage that revenue growth. It’s like the corner shop growing into a superstore without bringing any staff in.”
As Ayre states, it has been well documented that the Reds had failed to capitalise commercially on the incredible success of the club for the last few decades. With the advent of the Premier League, and the already global status which Liverpool had accrued via years of success, the Reds never really had the business acumen at the club to capitalise on the worldwide renown of the club. Without accusing previous owner David Moores and CEO Rick Parry directly, the corner shop-superstore metaphor works pretty well. Ayre had to completely overhaul the organisation as it was in 2007 and describes how he had to fill an entire area of middle management, which had been missing at the club previously.
The club had fallen behind the likes of Manchester United commercially for a long time, and although turnover had increased from £45.6million in 1999 to £121million in 2005, the club was still leagues behind the rest of the football world’s top clubs. It was no coincidence though that from the period of Ayre’s appointment in August 2007, things started to move at a pace. The accounts reports for July 2006 – July 2007 which were recorded a month’s previous to his appointment showed annual revenues at £133.9m. At things stand with the club’s most recent announcement of the accounts for the period between July 2009 – July 2010, revenues now stand at £184m, a significant 37% increase, one which could get even higher when the record deal, which Ayre brokered, for shirt sponsorship with Standard Chartered , is included in next year’s report.
Although some fans may not like it, Ayre’s job as Managing Director is to exploit Liverpool ’s global “brand.” To make the most from the Reds support globally is his primary goal, and to bring in revenues to support the club’s on pitch activities. Increased revenues can only benefit the club, and I think what Ayre has done for the Reds, especially in difficult circumstances for the club, is nothing short of remarkable. We still lag behind Manchester United (£81m) and Real Madrid (£123.5m) with £62million in regards to commercial revenue, but as the club goes from strength to strength on the field, I have no doubt this will replicate itself off the field too, unlike in the past. The formation of Liverpool Football Club as a Global Brand has been a long time in coming, as Ayre states:
“I’m a Liverpool lad. We’d all love to think that this is our football club from our city; that we own it. But the absolute reality – in the case of Liverpool, not everyone – is that this is a global brand, one of only a handful of clubs that are truly globally recognised and supported. So you can’t have it both ways. You can’t hope to be one of the biggest football clubs in the world, with some of the biggest revenues and some of the greatest players, and you can’t invite people from the other side of the world to support your team and contribute to your revenues and therefore your success, and not expect to let them in and let them participate in some way in what you do. If we want to be a small parochial club, and close our doors to anyone outside the city, we won’t get very far in this global football market. So whether it’s what people like is irrelevant – it’s absolutely what people have to accept and expect.”
Ensuring we capitalise on our global support is essential for the Reds long term future and it could very well be the crucial step in creating the self-sustaining football club, which can win titles year in year out, which Fenway Sports Group is aspiring towards. Well done Ian for your work so far, and keep up the good work.
I agree to a certain extent but surely post Istanbul was when the most revenue was made?
Asian,American and Australian markets were very much up for grabs at that time as the Premier League was starting to become a money making machine that kept rolling.
The Champions League win and the manner of it would surely have spread the Liverpool brand to far flung places with Pre Season tours,merchandise sales etc etc.
There were a couple of major leaps. One some time between 99 and 05 when revenues went from £45m to £90m (stripping £31m out for CL success), and another some time between 07 and 10, when revenues went from £133m (with major CL performance) to £184m (with less CL success). That was before either of the major new sponsorship deals kicked in.
WUM
Yep, and when Ged left the wage bill was 49 mill £.
When Rafa left the wage bill was 114 mill £.
Let's stop arguing semantics - they were the two best managers of the 'post-success' generation by a long shot. They both did some good stuff, both did some bad stuff, and we both remember the good far more than the bad. They'll both get to see us win #19 and #20 under BRod! HOLLA BACK
I was at th Nou Camp that night, and your assertion is true. Of course if we had gone over the halfway line we'd have been battered.
Horses for courses. The plan was to beat them over two legs and we did. Style should always, always come after work ethic and result.
The LFC teams of the 70's and 80's were difficult to beat first and stylish when the game was won. The true exception to great LFC teams was 87/88 but those teams come along very rarely. That was team was our Brazil of 1970.
The game against Barca in 2001 was a one off in terms of total dullness.
Sure we played counter attacking football throughout Houlliers reign but it bought us success and built the foundations for improvement.
Totally agree.
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