The Defence

[mark1975]

What the fuck is going on? Is it just an early blip while we adjust to new tactics or are we really lacking in quality? Skrtel is all over the place, so is Agger, Johnson has made mistakes and Reina has flapped at everything. It's somewhere between the heart in mouth feeling of defending setpieces under Rafa and the expectation that every time a team get's into our last third, they're going to produce something. Not good.

Skrtel took his eye off the ball yesterday, Agger fluffed that header back into the danger area when the ball was playing ping pong in our box and while Johnson has been something of a plus in an attacking sense, he's made mistakes too while the former two have cost us a couple of goals between them.

If it continues I'd be tempted to get Coates in there for a bit of presence, but he worries me too.

 

[iseered]

I see people are keen to blame the 'system' (aren't they always), but a lot of the errors come from players being not very good. I do think things will get better though.

 

[Modo]

I think Coates will get more games in the premiership if he keeps playing well in the Europa League.

 

[gene hughes]

I think the midfield is leaving the defense totally exposed and some of them aren't good enough to deal with it.

 

[Modo]

I think the midfield is leaving the defense totally exposed and some of them aren't good enough to deal with it.

Individual mistakes has cost us dearly this season as well.

 

[gene hughes]

Individual mistakes has cost us dearly this season as well.

What kind of mistake is not individual Modo?

 

[Modo]

What kind of mistake is not individual Modo?

Johnson and Agger vs Man U, Carra and Enrique's vs Young Boys.

How about the three defenders Suso somehow fooled in order to find Assaidi in the box against WBA?

 

[Modo]

What kind of mistake is not individual Modo?

Short answer collective mistakes.

 

[gene hughes]

Short answer collective mistakes.

Haha

Dare I ask you to describe our most recent collective mistake? I don't know what that means.

 

[Modo]

Haha

Dare I ask you to describe our most recent collective mistake? I don't know what that means.

Buying Downing and Carroll for £55 Million.

 

[Fabio]

Haha

Dare I ask you to describe our most recent collective mistake? I don't know what that means.

The enrique/jones/Coates fuck up against young boys?

Communication would have stopped that goal

 

[gene hughes]

Seriously though ... You can't can you?

 

[gene hughes]

The enrique/jones/Coates fuck up against young boys?

Communication would have stopped that goal

That was three individual errors within ten seconds. Is that what a collective error is?

 

[Fabio]

Thought my example was decent!

 

[Farkmaster]

I think the midfield is leaving the defense totally exposed and some of them aren't good enough to deal with it.

There aren't many defenses that have ever existed in world football who could deal with being as exposed as we were at times last game. There are many that could have dealt with Norwich though.

 

[gene hughes]

That was three individual errors within ten seconds. Is that what a collective error is?

If so I think most goals are collective errors.

 

[gene hughes]

There aren't many defenses that have ever existed in world football who could deal with being as exposed as we were at times last game. There are many that could have dealt with Norwich though.

True.

 

[Molbystwin]

I genuinely think its the change of style which is causing the problem, however much people may disagree or claim it as too easy an excuse. Now defenders wereas they were primarily expected to defend are now expected to retain and distribute, its put an extra thought in the equation and either they are not comfortable yet or, quite possibly, are not actually good enough to do both defend and "play".

Some of the passes in our defensive third were bordering on the absurd yesterday inviting silly pressure when a clearance was required, but then maybe thats part of it too, keep the ball draw on your opponents until they leave a gap and then use it too hurt them. Nonetheless we've conceded too many goals and some sloppy avoidable ones at that and I hope (and think) that over time we will improve.

We do need to, at least until we can start holding the ball for 80 mins a match like Barca were able to.

On a side note, IF we can turn ourselves into a team which holds the ball for pushing 70 of the time most games I'm very interested in seeing if the maxim of the team without the ball get more tired is actually true..... i wonder if we will start scoring late goals against "tired" teams.

 

[StevieM]

Lucas sitting in front of the back four sorting shit out is what's missing.

 

[mark1975]

Some of the mistakes are just sloppy though Molby. It's fine trying to implement a style where we try to play our way out from the back, but there's also times when the need for an old fashioned punt clear is necessary. I do think it's too easy to say it's down to the system, but it is partly, and of course there are going to be hiccups, but this is an average of two goals a game pretty much. That's not hiccups, that's an inability to defend well consistently, either as a unit or as individuals.

I do see problems with the setup that need addressing, we lack a natural ball winner in the middle of the park who will protect the back four, on top of that, the players we have got in there, while being good passers of the ball, don't dominate the opposition and impose themselves, they're also guilty of leaving massive gaps, particularly Gerrard, Sahin and Shelvey. Possession football is great, but you have to have the players to win it back, you're not going to have 80% possession in a game, and the 40% that some teams are limited to against us is enough to damage us.

I hate to repeat myself but I've been saying this since early last season, watch our games and we constantly give players space on the edge of the box, even when Lucas plays, the back line becomes exposed and either they're being asked to do more than should be expected, or they're just not good enough. I think we've got a 'good' back line, but it's a far cry from the days of Babbel, Hyypia, Finnan, Arbeloa, Riise, Carra, Henchoz etc. We're going to continue to get exploited and the way he's setting the defense up to play with the fullbacks pushed to the touchline and high up the pitch, and the centre backs more or less in the fullback positions with a midfielder dropping in - it's suicide. It might be something we become comfortable with eventually and it's great while we're in possession, but what we're seeing time and time again is REAL danger every time we give the ball away, because the starting positions of the defensive players leaves too much to be asked of them to recover. He needs to compromise his philosophy a touch and tighten things, because for all our eye catching ability when on the ball, when we lose it we're a fucking shambles. When the opposition get in the final third, I'm expecting us to concede.

 

[Glen C]

Lucas sitting in front of the back four sorting shit out is what's missing.

X 2. We severely miss his ball winning presence in midfield.

2

 

[juniormember]

It's weird.
We don't throw a ton of bodies into the box but have most of the team stacked around the opposition penalty area when we're attacking, with usually the players furthest back are the two centre backs, and they're in the opposition half too.
It's not even a mystery why we look so bloody vulnerable with counter attacks, whether it's Arsenal coming at us or the shittest teams in the league.
Unless we're chasing a 2 goal lead, there's no way we should be leaving ourselves so exposed at the back. It can only work if we had seriously pacey centre backs and s lightning quick defensive midfielder.

 

[OLD_Lewy]

Lucas sitting in front of the back four sorting shit out is what's missing.

x3, its not rocket science, no lucas means that our defenders (well, centre-backs) are faced with one-on-one situations a lot more than they would be with lucas there to help the,

 

[mark1975]

x3, its not rocket science, no lucas means that our defenders (well, centre-backs) are faced with one-on-one situations a lot more than they would be with lucas there to help the,

United play alot without a DM and come pretty close to winning the league regularly, besides which, despite Lucas sitting and being a bit more industrious than the rest, we were still over exposed with him in there, even more so now. The problem is probably somewhere in the middle, we're missing a DM to cover the gaps, but our defenders should be a bit more reliable than they are showing and SHOULD be able to deal with one on one situations.

One of Norwich's chances yesterday which they were unlucky with, the guy on the right hand side literally skins Johnson far too easy but Johnson doesn't even try to recover, he kind of looks a bit bewildered that it's happened, it's a fairly common thing - not just with him (though he's one of the main culprits). I'd love to see the percentage for the areas where goals have come from and the initial build up play, I'd wager most of those goals have come down our left and straight down the middle.

 

[tony]

I think it could be solved by the centre backs pushing up the field by 5 to 10 yards - just compressing the gap to the midfield. Skagger have the pace to cope with this. There does seem to be a massive space sometimes in front of them, but some of the goals have come from horrendous mistakes which have nothing to do with the system. Hopefully we are getting them out of our system! By the way I think you are a bit harsh on Johnson he does get caught out of position but he is also played out of position from time to time - generally I think hes beeen really good this season

 

[Molbystwin]

Some of the mistakes are just sloppy though Molby. It's fine trying to implement a style where we try to play our way out from the back, but there's also times when the need for an old fashioned punt clear is necessary. I do think it's too easy to say it's down to the system, but it is partly, and of course there are going to be hiccups, but this is an average of two goals a game pretty much. That's not hiccups, that's an inability to defend well consistently, either as a unit or as individuals.

I do see problems with the setup that need addressing, we lack a natural ball winner in the middle of the park who will protect the back four, on top of that, the players we have got in there, while being good passers of the ball, don't dominate the opposition and impose themselves, they're also guilty of leaving massive gaps, particularly Gerrard, Sahin and Shelvey. Possession football is great, but you have to have the players to win it back, you're not going to have 80% possession in a game, and the 40% that some teams are limited to against us is enough to damage us.

I hate to repeat myself but I've been saying this since early last season, watch our games and we constantly give players space on the edge of the box, even when Lucas plays, the back line becomes exposed and either they're being asked to do more than should be expected, or they're just not good enough. I think we've got a 'good' back line, but it's a far cry from the days of Babbel, Hyypia, Finnan, Arbeloa, Riise, Carra, Henchoz etc. We're going to continue to get exploited and the way he's setting the defense up to play with the fullbacks pushed to the touchline and high up the pitch, and the centre backs more or less in the fullback positions with a midfielder dropping in - it's suicide. It might be something we become comfortable with eventually and it's great while we're in possession, but what we're seeing time and time again is REAL danger every time we give the ball away, because the starting positions of the defensive players leaves too much to be asked of them to recover. He needs to compromise his philosophy a touch and tighten things, because for all our eye catching ability when on the ball, when we lose it we're a fucking shambles. When the opposition get in the final third, I'm expecting us to concede.

I agree with all that, a top class defensive mid with pace would undoubtedly help matters and i agree we are conceding poor goals. Mascherano MkII would be a very good addition.... shame we are skint.

 

[Farkmaster]

I see people are keen to blame the 'system' .

Could you expand on what this means exactly? I think most on this website from what I've seen are pretty positive about our long term goals and the way that the team is built to play. That said it's a very very challenging way of playing football. The personnel we have currently, especially with Lucas out (but I think even with him in) aren't perfectly suited for it yet, and there's a lot of learning to be done.

Like any system it has its downsides, and while they weren't exploited by Norwich, it is telling that a team playing so abysmally is still going to get chances against us. If our normal lack of finishing and bad luck had continued, we could have been trailing in this game despite total dominance at times, because when we lose control playing this style, we really lose it.

That isn't a criticisme of the system per se, it's merely an observation of how exposed we are when we aren't playing that system with the discipline it requires. We'll see it a lot, it's the counterpoint to getting frustrated with the fact that our 2 DM sides were not flexible enough nor did it commit bodies forward when we didn't play it optimally.

 

[StevieM]

United play alot without a DM and come pretty close to winning the league regularly.

While not disagreeing with you Mark, united have looked shaky at the back this season and on numerous occasions over the years - they tend to win by shear force of will and the shitload of goals they score.

Ferdinand & Vidic are pretty handy defenders & experienced too, and Carrick tends to sit deeper as well, does he not?

It's not necessarily a ball winner we need, but someone with discipline who can break up moves and protect the space in front of the CB's is essential.

Masher was more of a roaming destroyer who lived for the tackle.

Lucas, without meaning to lessen his impact, just gets in other teams way. Gerrard hasn't got the discipline for it. I'm not sure whether Sahin or Allen are best disposed to it as well.

Maybe we do need a DM, but that means sacrificing one of the above 4 and blunting our attacking abilities.

I remember when there were calls on here to not play Masher at home because he was too defensive to okay beside Alonso.

 

[keniget]

I think it could be solved by the centre backs pushing up the field by 5 to 10 yards - just compressing the gap to the midfield. Skagger have the pace to cope with this. There does seem to be a massive space sometimes in front of them, but some of the goals have come from horrendous mistakes which have nothing to do with the system. Hopefully we are getting them out of our system! By the way I think you are a bit harsh on Johnson he does get caught out of position but he is also played out of position from time to time - generally I think hes beeen really good this season

That's an interesting point but I think that'd further compound the issue. It'd be okay if we retained the ball and pressed better but right now we lose it too often to take the chance of pushing up so high.

As for horrendous mistakes - true - but are we kidding ourselves by suggesting that a glut of really bad mistakes all occurring in a really short space of time have nothing to do with the system? It's a bit much of a coincidence.

 

[Silver Sean]

All I know is that Skittles deserves a good slap in the kisser for letting that ball under his foot for Norwich's 2nd goal. And fined. Pathetic.