Stoke post match thoughts

[mark1975]

I think Hendo is best suited to a Lee Bowyer-style role. He's certainly not a DM. Nor, I'm sure, does he want to be.

Hopefully he just did a job there on Sunday, if Lucas goes we need to buy, but I don't think Rodgers will shy away from having a deep lying ball player (which is perhaps where Can comes in, in the longer term), Henderson can play the occasional good ball on the break but he's hardly Gerrard or Alonso when it comes to precision 30 yard balls.

 

[mark1975]

Ha.. just found this on the fan boards on the Echo website, can't believe that twat Kanwar is still doing the rounds:

I'm not sure he has got his priorities quite right with the last story just as I think Rafa Benitez would have been excused for having time off around the time of the death of his father. That said we should never forget that football managers and players are human. I quit that ridiculous discussion forum Liverpool-Kop earlier today because the guy running it just seems incapable of over-coming his loathing of Rodgers and actually supporting the team. I'm not saying we can't criticise the man and the job he is doing but when Liverpool go to a ground like Stoke- a traditional poor hunting ground for us- and get a result in the first day of the season then I think a discussion of the match shouldn't just be focused on ridiculous attacks on the way Rodgers speaks in press-conferences! Shame on you, Jaimie Kanwar.

 

[Judge Jules]

"Kanwar" is an anagram of "wankar". Just saying.

 

[gkmacca]

Aldo on Benteke:

"Don’t underestimate the value of a presence".

He's a veritable Heidegger!

 

[6TimesaRed]

"It's official".

Jesus Christ. I guess we were long ball merchants when Reina knocked it long for goals for Bellamy, Dossena, Maxi etc.

Arguably we where. We where very much a counter attacking team under Rafa.. I am not saying it's not effective, I'm saying Mingolets distribution is probably one of the weakest parts of his game.. Reina was Boss at it..

Hopefully he has worked on it a bit in pre season.. Done right, it could be effective given Benteke's strength.

 

[ILD]

Some thoughts ;

The defense at least gave off the impression that they intend to defend as a unit this year. That was encouraging. Did anyone spot their attempt to semi link hands at one stage to ensure they all kept to one defensive line when defending a set piece? It reminded me of the first game of the season last year. Lovren tried to organise the defense against Southampton that day. Unfortunately, he along with the rest of the defense last year began to play as individuals and we had no defensive cohesion.

How refreshing was it to have two full backs who are good defenders? Clyne and Gomez were solid and not often found 'all at sea'. Which in turn allowed Lovren to stay centrally and focus on his own job instead of drifting out left to cover a missing full back. Lovren was very good for us on Sunday. Good man Dejan.

Milner is great isn't he? I can relax when he is on the ball. He installs confidence into us with his dependable nature. He retains the ball excellently. Also, bonus points for hacking into that bully Charlie Adam.

Can had a lovely cameo IMO. Some astute forward passing and as per usual he demonstrated his running power. I've no idea what to do with Can this season. He will probably prop up in a few different midfield positions but he definitely needs game time. We are arguably better with him on the field. He adds a further dimension to our game.

Firmino looks class. At the moment we only have Coutinho who can do a Suarez. i.e. receive the ball in a tight area, roll his man to create space and springboard an attack. Firmino looks to be able to find space for himself and /or roll his marker.

I'm going to give Benteke a free pass here. Away to stoke and he had to work off scraps as we seemed happy to keep our shape and iron out a win. I'll reserve judgement until we've played a few more games.

I was a little bit surprised to see Ibe start. I was happy with his selection though. I've stated numerous times on here how I worry he'll hog the ball for us. Perhaps he needs to release the ball sooner for us?

 

[peterhague]

I think it's odd how obsessive people are about potentially ball-hogging wingers like Ibe. About half the time he gets it and runs towards a defender, he makes something happen - beats a man, opens up space etc. Isn't that what we want?

Someone with at least the potential to create chances and disrupt defences? Obviously he'll get more refined but it's crazy how often this 19 year old kid looks like one of our best attackers.

 

[Mystic]

I think it's odd how obsessive people are about potentially ball-hogging wingers like Ibe. About half the time he gets it and runs towards a defender, he makes something happen - beats a man, opens up space etc. Isn't that what we want?

Someone with at least the potential to create chances and disrupt defences? Obviously he'll get more refined but it's crazy how often this 19 year old kid looks like one of our best attackers.

Having players who run at teams is always a massive asset, they make the entire team look better, so many teams seem to overlook this.

 

[beejay]

Having players who run at teams is always a massive asset, they make the entire team look better, so many teams seem to overlook this.

That's right, but the coaches should tell him to mix it up a bit more eg to use the overlapping fullback rather than cutting inside every time.

It will come with experience and Clyne doesn't strike me as the shy type so will give him a few rockets to remind him.

 

[ILD]

I love players who can pick up the ball and scare the living daylights out of a defender. (Hazard for example can be quite direct at times getting into the box). I've no problems with Ibe doing that at all. In fact, I'm all for it.

I was alluding to Ibe potentially holding onto the ball unnecessary. I recall him holding onto the ball far too long in presason last year. He would cut across the pitch and stay on the ball instead of releasing it. He has the talent and strength to stay on the ball and take defenders with him. McClaren apparently tried to eradicate this from his game at Derby which is only positive for us.

Couldn't find the direct quotes. I'm no Binny.
McClaren mentioned a few weeks back that when he first joined in training he “could have had a ball to himself” so his distribution of the ball was one of the first things that the coaching staff worked on.

Ibe is one of my favourite players for us. I'm certainly not obsessive about ball hogging wingers. (I can even tolerate Lallana having a few extra touches, 😉).
It was just an observation of his occasional playing style and something I don't want to see creep back into his game.

 

[ILD]

That's right, but the coaches should tell him to mix it up a bit more eg to use the overlapping fullback rather than cutting inside every time.

It will come with experience and Clyne doesn't strike me as the shy type so will give him a few rockets to remind him.

Ibe can go left or right of the defender. He's got it all really. Pace, strength, skill etc. He showed this against Everton in his first game back after his loan spell. He mixed it up time and time again and they had to double up on him after a while.

 

[peterhague]

It's not really aimed at you, you just happened to provoke something I've been feeling for a while.

You hear this sort of complaint about Ibe all the time, just irks me a bit.

 

[Oliver Twist]

That's right, but the coaches should tell him to mix it up a bit more eg to use the overlapping fullback rather than cutting inside every time.

He could also add goals to his game. He literally never scores.

I don't know why we are wasting our time with him. Frankly.

 

[Arn]

We didn't play counter attacking football under Rafa. We controlled almost every game, most ball possession. Be free to look at the stats and it will show you that we had more than 50% of the ball in almost every game. They let us control the games because we had a big problem breaking teams down.

The myth that we played counter attacking and defensive is a myth imagined up by the Rafa hating english media.

 

[peterhague]

I think we were defensive under Rafa but not counter-attacking.

Mostly we were just pragmatic once the first goal of controlling the midfield had been achieved.

 

[Rafiagra]

I was really impressed with us - sure, we needed to create more but I think that will come. Its the first time I've seen the likes of Gomez and Firmino, and its obvious that they are decent players. Milner is going to prove a really astute signing - he's brought in some real experience and leadership - he should be captain - and I thought Benteke looked like a menace and will always offer a threat, which the likes of last season's strikers never did.

Loren did well and fingers crossed he keeps that up. I'm still not sure about Skrtel - it worries me that he's 'leading' our defence. Lallana was pretty anonymous - we should have bought Firmino the year before instead of him. However, him and Ibe had their wings clipped for this game so probably not fair to judge them too harshly.

Coutinho was our best signing of the summer (or just before). However, its ridiculous that Henderson was given a more lucrative contract - lets right that wrong before it comes back to bite us on the ass.

 

[Oliver Twist]

The myth that we played counter attacking and defensive is a myth imagined up by the Rafa hating english media.

There is nothing wrong with being either counter-attacking or defensive. When you're winning games, no-one gives a fuck how you play.

 

[ILD]

It's not really aimed at you, you just happened to provoke something I've been feeling for a while.

You hear this sort of complaint about Ibe all the time, just irks me a bit.

I'm not noticing too many complaints about Ibe, a few general observations perhaps.

 

[peterhague]

I'm not noticing too many complaints about Ibe, a few general observations perhaps.

Aggregated across other forums and twitter etc, I hear plenty.

It's not the majority but defo a common complaint. In fact it's become a bit of a cliché.

 

[ILD]

Fair enough. Haven't noticed it too much myself.

I have noticed Lallana being crucified for holding onto the ball however.

 

[Oliver Twist]

Criticism of Lallana is becoming a bit of a cliché.

 

[Frogfish]

Aggregated across other forums and twitter etc, I hear plenty.

It's not the majority but defo a common complaint. In fact it's become a bit of a cliché.

Knuckle-draggers. There's always more than a few incapable of rational thought.

 

[keniget]

I think it's odd how obsessive people are about potentially ball-hogging wingers like Ibe. About half the time he gets it and runs towards a defender, he makes something happen - beats a man, opens up space etc. Isn't that what we want?

Someone with at least the potential to create chances and disrupt defences? Obviously he'll get more refined but it's crazy how often this 19 year old kid looks like one of our best attackers.

I don't know if I'm being unfair but I can't help but compare him to Sterling and one of the most stand-out things about Sterling was how cultured he was on the ball. It often amazed me. Ibe doesn't have that - not yet anyways. At times he doesn't appear to be fully in control of the ball / what he's doing and that's my issue with him right now. He often gets away with it because of his physical attributes to an extent and defenders are frightened to get close to him but to really progress he'll need to refine his technique and all round game. In that respect I think gkmacca is right to worry about us pigeon-holing him as a "beat the fullback out wide and cross it" type of winger.

 

[peterhague]

He isn't as gifted on the ball as Sterling, true.

Few are though. Sterling can look almost balletic.

 

[Judge Jules]

Aldo on Benteke:

"Don’t underestimate the value of a presence".

He's a veritable Heidegger!

What, a boozy beggar who could drink you under the table?

 

[Frogfish]

He isn't as gifted on the ball as Sterling, true.

Few are though. Sterling can look almost balletic.

That's only because when he runs he holds his arms up like he's the Karate Kid.

 

[Judge Jules]

Some thoughts ;

The defense at least gave off the impression that they intend to defend as a unit this year. That was encouraging. Did anyone spot their attempt to semi link hands at one stage to ensure they all kept to one defensive line when defending a set piece? It reminded me of the first game of the season last year. Lovren tried to organise the defense against Southampton that day. Unfortunately, he along with the rest of the defense last year began to play as individuals and we had no defensive cohesion.

How refreshing was it to have two full backs who are good defenders? Clyne and Gomez were solid and not often found 'all at sea'. Which in turn allowed Lovren to stay centrally and focus on his own job instead of drifting out left to cover a missing full back. Lovren was very good for us on Sunday. Good man Dejan.

Milner is great isn't he? I can relax when he is on the ball. He installs confidence into us with his dependable nature. He retains the ball excellently. Also, bonus points for hacking into that bully Charlie Adam.

Can had a lovely cameo IMO. Some astute forward passing and as per usual he demonstrated his running power. I've no idea what to do with Can this season. He will probably prop up in a few different midfield positions but he definitely needs game time. We are arguably better with him on the field. He adds a further dimension to our game.

Firmino looks class. At the moment we only have Coutinho who can do a Suarez. i.e. receive the ball in a tight area, roll his man to create space and springboard an attack. Firmino looks to be able to find space for himself and /or roll his marker.

I'm going to give Benteke a free pass here. Away to stoke and he had to work off scraps as we seemed happy to keep our shape and iron out a win. I'll reserve judgement until we've played a few more games.

I was a little bit surprised to see Ibe start. I was happy with his selection though. I've stated numerous times on here how I worry he'll hog the ball for us. Perhaps he needs to release the ball sooner for us?

Very good point and a very important one. It illustrates the value of a steady, experienced pro who, while having plenty of talent, is also happy to lead the way in doing the grunt work. Others follow, we function better as a unit and - last but by no means least - team spirit gets a big boost.

 

[gkmacca]

All teams attack and counter attack. You only attack and don't counter attack when the other team doesn't turn up on the pitch.

 

[SummerOnions]

I'd like to see Ibe on the left as well to get him adept on both feet as much as possible. If he gets boss with both feet and can score with both feet he'll go on to be a monster. As yet he's just a work in progress that is fully worth persevering with

 

[gkmacca]

I'd like to see Ibe on the left as well to get him adept on both feet as much as possible. If he gets boss with both feet and can score with both feet he'll go on to be a monster. As yet he's just a work in progress that is fully worth persevering with

I certainly don't want him to be constrained into being just someone who goes down the line. Sterling got way more freedom to roam when he was at the same stage (mainly, I guess, because we didn't have a target man for crosses and so all the forward line was much more fluid). Ibe's much more interesting and dangerous when he cuts inside.