Stoke post match thoughts

[gkmacca]

I know we've disagreed about this before Macca...but this is a genuine question...do you believe Rodgers really believes all of the guff he spouts? I mean, I'm with you on this one...the man can suffer terrible bouts of the verbal trots but I do wonder if he comes out with all of the nonsense in order to cover up the fact that as you say, he's won nothing yet. Is it his way of projecting gravitas in the absence of trophies? I'm reminded of Tony Blair when he said of his critics within the Labour Party..."it's worse than they think... I actually believe all of this New Labour stuff." is that the case with Brendan? I'm genuinely not sure...I kind of hope not.

I think he does believe it. Whether or not there's a tiny voice deep inside that murmurs to the contrary, I don't know, but he's one of those people who absolutely devours self-help and positive thinking books - his shelves heave with them - and he has that auto-didact's excitement about the power of words and phrases. I don't want to sneer about it - I mean, the guy HAS worked damned hard, thought hard, and drawn ideas from all kinds of people and places, but the negative side is that it does all get a bit obsessive and dogmatic. I think if he ever doubted one element within the elaborate system he's created in his head he'd fear the whole thing would come tumbling down. Feeling he can explain something, no matter how dubiously to others, satisfies him that all is well with the world. Thomas Kuhn would've had a field day with him!

 

[Oliver Twist]

I know we've disagreed about this before Macca...but this is a genuine question...do you believe Rodgers really believes all of the guff he spouts? I mean, I'm with you on this one...the man can suffer terrible bouts of the verbal trots but I do wonder if he comes out with all of the nonsense in order to cover up the fact that as you say, he's won nothing yet. Is it his way of projecting gravitas in the absence of trophies? I'm reminded of Tony Blair when he said of his critics within the Labour Party..."it's worse than they think... I actually believe all of this New Labour stuff." is that the case with Brendan? I'm genuinely not sure...I kind of hope not.

Rodgers wants to read this article in the NY Times which states in order to project power you should never over explain.

I'd explain the article it in more detail if I hadn't just read it.

 

[mark1975]

This made me wince, given his distribution is one Mingolets poorest parts of his game..

'In this same fixture 11 weeks ago, goalkeeper Simon Mignolet made 10 long passes. On Sunday he made 24, with Benteke receiving more passes from the shot-stopper than any other Liverpool player'

It official..we are becoming long ball merchants.. Route 1.. That will get Benteke some goals.. *sigh*

Though we where trying too hard to get Benteke involved in the game at times.. It was only when Can came on that started to change..

"It's official".

Jesus Christ. I guess we were long ball merchants when Reina knocked it long for goals for Bellamy, Dossena, Maxi etc.

 

[leftpeg]

I think he does believe it. Whether or not there's a tiny voice deep inside that murmurs to the contrary, I don't know, but he's one of those people who absolutely devours self-help and positive thinking books - his shelves heave with them - and he has that auto-didact's excitement about the power of words and phrases. I don't want to sneer about it - I mean, the guy HAS worked damned hard, thought hard, and drawn ideas from all kinds of people and places, but the negative side is that it does all get a bit obsessive and dogmatic. I think if he ever doubted one element within the elaborate system he's created in his head he'd fear the whole thing would come tumbling down. Feeling he can explain something, no matter how dubiously to others, satisfies him that all is well with the world. Thomas Kuhn would've had a field day with him!

I think that's a really good point about his work ethic. Management gurus and improvement books might not be my thing but he's clearly devoured them in his search for whatever it is he's looking for. I have confidence in him as our manager (still...for now...) but I don't think I'd like the guy one iota in real life.

 

[leftpeg]

Rodgers wants to read this article in the NY Times which states in order to project power you should never over explain.

In politics, when you're explaining you're losing.

 

[leftpeg]

He spent 5 years studying neuro linguistic programming.

It's a load of fucking shite.

It (NLP) isn't...although I'm not saying Rodgers is an effective practitioner.

 

[mark1975]

Yep. But Rodgers without principles is what? A young manager who hasn't won anything who talks and talks about principles.

I think he's shown "some" willingness to bend his philosophy. He went to Madrid defensively (irrespective of the decisions there that drew derision), he saw out a 1-1 draw with Chelsea and two equally tight games in the cups, he's gone to Stoke and learned a lesson. So you can argue that in respect of previous results, particularly in the case of Chelsea and Stoke, he's compromised on his thinking. It's what most of us have said he needed to do to be successful and I don't think it's particularly fair to separate those harder fought games as coming from an outside influence.

The real telling part is when we get firing on all cylinders, then he will have a conundrum in the big games, as to whether to stick with all out attack, or learn from these sort of games and play it tight. That's (I guess) when we'll find out what he really wants, if he can adapt his thinking for different games, then he'll be getting somewhere. For how poor we were against Chelsea in *that* game at the end of 13/14 and Stoke and Palace last season, we've shown equal brilliance in going for the jugular in other games, we seem to have a good record against City for instance, at Anfield. So it's about striking a balance.

He's a young manager who's on a learning curve, his Swansea side could fight and play in equal measure, I think he's bought physically athletic players of late to try to combat a lack of physicality in the side and it showed yesterday where we out-battled Stoke for large periods of the game. So it's a bit difficult to see how he's not trying to alter his approach, if anything, this Summer and him (allegedly) taking over the reigns of the transfers, has seen exactly the sort of approach we've wanted/needed.

 

[cloggypop]

It (NLP) isn't...although I'm not saying Rodgers is an effective practitioner.

Well it is largely viewed as a pseudoscience.

 

[leftpeg]

Well it is largely viewed as a pseudoscience.

He's not even the first Liverpool manager to utilise a form of NLP. Shankly changed our strip to make our players look bigger and more imposing. Can you imagine the flak Rodgers would get for coming out with something like that now?

 

[cloggypop]

That's a form of gaining an advantage.

I am never going to buy a course off you.

 

[Judge Jules]

Shanks would also strut into our dressing-room before a game saying things like "I've just been watching them getting off the coach and they all look like they were out on the p!$$ last night - you'll murrrder them." Mind you, he'd have poo-pooed the suggestion that he was applying some kind of science in doing so.

 

[leftpeg]

Shanks would also strut into our dressing-room before a game saying things like "I've just been watching them getting off the coach and they all look like they were out on the p!$$ last night - you'll murrrder them." Mind you, he'd have poo-pooed the suggestion that he was applying some kind of science in doing so.

Exactly...and in doing so he was the first..but not the last...Liverpool manager to use something like what we now recognise to be NLP. Cloggy would have hated it.

 

[cloggypop]

Erm. No.

How much are your courses by the way?

 

[leftpeg]

Erm. No.

How much are your courses by the way?

That's twice you've referred to them so clearly it's working.

 

[cloggypop]

Take my money. Take it!

It is a pile of wank though

http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html

If Rodgers chooses to believe it that is up to him though. I've got mates who believe in faith healing at distance and all sorts of shite.

 

[leftpeg]

If Rodgers chooses to believe it that is up to him though. I've got mates who believe in faith healing at distance and all sorts of shite.

Not really comparing like with like is it?

 

[cloggypop]

Well, it's all bollocks.

 

[dantes]

I went on a course once. The only thing I gained was the knowledge that if this is how successful people go about their business, like a bunch of loons, then they will suffer greatly at my hands completely unable to protect themselves from what is to come. It's like that scene from the Simpsons, NLP is like a pair of safety goggles.

 

[gkmacca]

I think lots of managers get obsessed with the self help/positive thinking gurus these days. The blessed Phil Brown apparently paid a fortune after being sacked by Hull to attend all kinds of dodgy-sounding 'secrets of leadership,' 'be the sovereign of your soul'-type conferences, seminars and 'retreats'. And that was AFTER his much-ridiculed half time talks on the pitch. I guess they're like economists, reacting to the unpredictability of the markets by withdrawing into mathematics. A manager endures talking to a bunch of heavy-lidded, over-paid, under-motivated twenty-somethings for a while, then gets the sack, then resolves to find SOMETHING that will turn the next squad into devoted disciples.

 

[Red Mullet]

Did you watch the game RedNinja?

We take goal kicks now, that makes us long ball merchants 🙄

Drama Queen.

Mignolet's long passes (per game; source: whoscored.com):

Games Attempts Successful %Accuracy
2015-16 1 27.0 11.0 40.7%
2014-15 36 24.9 5.6 22.5%
2013-14 38 27.6 5.8 21.0%

I see RedNinja hasn't improved on his posting.

You can actually see the cogs turning when he typed "officially"

 

[Woland]

I once got a feng shui consultant round and was roundly mocked by my mates. I didn't derive much spiritual benefit but my house was a fuck of a lot tidier when she'd done her thing.

 

[Gary25]

Heh, I was thinking this during the match actually… Is there likely to be a time when Hendo isn’t good enough to get in the side? This season too?

It’s a weird one cos yeah he’s captain on merit and stuff, but what if Can, Milner, Coutinho are a better triumverate? He can’t go and drop Hendo after making him captain can he? I’d go so far as to say that if you need someone in front of the back four to play that deeper role and to supply Milner & Coutinho, then Joe Allen would be a better bet. Allen’s better with the ball at his feet than Henderson and reads the game better.

I don’t want to jump at shadows after 1 match, but I don’t see how this works long-term cos good sides will pick Henderson apart in that role, and I fully believe his feet aren’t good enough to be able to control and move it quickly enough to play there either. His first touch isn’t sharp, he takes 3 touches to get it under control and he telegraphs passes. Allen, Lucas and Can all have a better touch.

But then Henderson brings the energy that those 3 don’t, so y’know.

Tough one, but it’s not beyond the realms that a cohesive functional midfield doesn’t include him.

I'm of the opinion you're overly harsh on Henderson. He's a very good player. Not perfect, still needs to improve certain aspects of the game etc but he's a very good player imo.

 

[Ryan]

I'm of the opinion you're overly harsh on Henderson. He's a very good player. Not perfect, still needs to improve certain aspects of the game etc but he's a very good player imo.

Oh I agree, he's good, and he's very useful. I just don't think he's got the right attributes to play that deep lying midfield role.

 

[Gary25]

Oh I agree, he's good, and he's very useful. I just don't think he's got the right attributes to play that deep lying midfield role.

Ah, yeah as a deep lying midfielder, I'd agree he'd be a worry there. Can definitely had a positive impact when he came on, but can't read too much into his 25-30 minutes appearance. I'd still have doubts about him starting games there away from home especially and against the top sides.

Be interesting to see what way our midfield looks in the coming weeks because there's also talk Rodgers and Lucas have fallen out, and he could be offloaded.

 

[Ryan]

Despite the impressive cameo, I don't think Can is close to being ready to play as the out and out defensive midfielder either.

Don't read too much into Sunday's game. Stoke were sitting back, tired, and we were in control of the ball; of course Can was going to look good in those circumstances where he's time to play, pick passes, and has willing runners around him in Hendo, Milner, Coutinho, etc.

Can has every single attribute you want in a footballer, but he ball watches too much. I'd worry greatly about his discipline in that role, and willingness to do the less glamorous stuff. Good players will run off him and find space easily.

 

[Halmeister]

Yep, that's my gripe with Can too. I don't think he has the discipline to play there, not yet anyway. That's why it's paramount we get a defensive midfielder in. Especially so if Lucas gets off.

 

[Frogfish]

Despite the impressive cameo, I don't think Can is close to being ready to play as the out and out defensive midfielder either.

Don't read too much into Sunday's game. Stoke were sitting back, tired, and we were in control of the ball; of course Can was going to look good in those circumstances where he's time to play, pick passes, and has willing runners around him in Hendo, Milner, Coutinho, etc.

Can has every single attribute you want in a footballer, but he ball watches too much. I'd worry greatly about his discipline in that role, and willingness to do the less glamorous stuff. Good players will run off him and find space easily.

I saw that another way. Stoke weren't sitting back and we weren't in control UNTIL Can came on. From about the 70min onwards we looked as if we could find a winner. I've been a critic of those here believing he's our saviour as a defensive midfielder but I was impressed with that cameo and would like to see more of that combination to see how it develops.

 

[mark1975]

I saw that another way. Stoke weren't sitting back and we weren't in control UNTIL Can came on. From about the 70min onwards we looked as if we could find a winner. I've been a critic of those here believing he's our saviour as a defensive midfielder but I was impressed with that cameo and would like to see more of that combination to see how it develops.

I think the point was that he didn't particularly play the holding role, he burst forward and was afforded the opportunity to chase back against tired legs, it was a point in the game where his "box-to-box" ability was utilised well. The issue is whether he has the discipline over the 90 minutes to measure his runs and not just go gung-ho and leave us exposed, especially against the better sides.

I was all for seeing him there, but you can see, at least in the short term, some of the flaws being quite similar to what we had with Gerrard. He's an excellent prospect though and I don't buy that he isn't ready, he's more dynamic than Henderson and Milner so he's a useful option at least in the lesser games and at later points of other matches.

 

[gkmacca]

I think Hendo is best suited to a Lee Bowyer-style role. He's certainly not a DM. Nor, I'm sure, does he want to be.

 

[Rosco]

I'm not sure Hendo is suited to the racist thug role myself