sack Rafa

[LadyRed]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037158#msg1037158 date=1263829183]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1037157#msg1037157 date=1263829049]
I support Liverpool Football Club, I've supported them long before Rafa was here and I will continue to support them long after he's gone.

It's as though some people have lost sight of that and simply become Rafa fans, and the club comes second. As long as Rafa was good for Liverpool, I was with him, now it's clear he no longer is, and therefore I'm done with him.
[/quote]

Thats obviously not the case Anita.

It's that some don't think that getting rid of Rafa will be good for our club.
[/quote]

It's the blinkered way in which excuses are made for every failure, the denial that he's done anything wrong born from the desire to desperately believe he's this wonderful manager which he isn't. He's crippling us.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1037162#msg1037162 date=1263829339]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037158#msg1037158 date=1263829183]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1037157#msg1037157 date=1263829049]
I support Liverpool Football Club, I've supported them long before Rafa was here and I will continue to support them long after he's gone.

It's as though some people have lost sight of that and simply become Rafa fans, and the club comes second. As long as Rafa was good for Liverpool, I was with him, now it's clear he no longer is, and therefore I'm done with him.
[/quote]

Thats obviously not the case Anita.

It's that some don't think that getting rid of Rafa will be good for our club.
[/quote]

It's the blinkered way in which excuses are made for every failure, the denial that he's done anything wrong born from the desire to desperately believe he's this wonderful manager which he isn't. He's crippling us.
[/quote]


Please feel free to name any poster that has said Rafa isn't AT LEAST partly responsible for our current position, or that he hasn't made plenty of mistakes. The problem is you can't because what you wrote is total crap.

 

[LEMONed]

Mentioned the same thing in another post yesterday, provided that 'golden handshake' is not an issue, who are the managers that might consider moving to us, given our current financial difficulties?

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037081#msg1037081 date=1263824025]
It's actually arguable that this season is one of the easiest to finish well, given that everyone else is dropping points left, right and centre.
[/quote]

It's a strange season indeed, other clubs are dropping points left, right and center, so it's abnormal for us to drop points?

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037139#msg1037139 date=1263827721]
Fuck i didn't think they'd spent that much in the previous season Richey (Allthough Cech didn't arrive until Jose took charge).

Jose first season was surely the most the chavs have spent in one season though?

Aug Michael Essien Lyon £24.4m
July Shaun Wright-Phillips Manchester City £21m
July Lassana Diarra Le Havre £1m
July Scott Sinclair Bristol Rovers £160,000
June Asier Del Horno Athletic Bilbao £8m
Jan Jiri Jarosik CSKA Moscow £4.83m
July Ricardo Carvalho Porto £19.85m
July Didier Drogba Marseille £24m
July Tiago Benfica £8m
July Mateja Kezman PSV Eindhoven £5m
July Paulo Ferreira Porto £13.2m
July Arjen Robben PSV Eindhoven £12m


[/quote]

I was including Cech as a Mourinho signing as he joined that summer

Cech 7m
Robben 12m
Ferreira 13.2m
Kezman 5m
Tiago 8 m
Drogba 24m
Carvalho 19.85m

It was the following summer (2005) that Del Horno, Diarra, Wright-Phillips and Essien were signed, and the year after (2006) that Ballack, Shevchenko, Kalou, Mikel and Cole were signed.

The first year was the year when they just bought everyone in sight. Mourinho tended to be slightly more focused

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037168#msg1037168 date=1263829596]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1037162#msg1037162 date=1263829339]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037158#msg1037158 date=1263829183]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1037157#msg1037157 date=1263829049]
I support Liverpool Football Club, I've supported them long before Rafa was here and I will continue to support them long after he's gone.

It's as though some people have lost sight of that and simply become Rafa fans, and the club comes second. As long as Rafa was good for Liverpool, I was with him, now it's clear he no longer is, and therefore I'm done with him.
[/quote]

Thats obviously not the case Anita.

It's that some don't think that getting rid of Rafa will be good for our club.
[/quote]

It's the blinkered way in which excuses are made for every failure, the denial that he's done anything wrong born from the desire to desperately believe he's this wonderful manager which he isn't. He's crippling us.
[/quote]


Please feel free to name any poster that has said Rafa isn't AT LEAST partly responsible for our current position. The problem is you can't because what you wrote is total crap.
[/quote]

I don't read every post on the forum, my head would probably explode if I did. But the rhetoric is the same, and yes, you're one of the culprits.

It goes something like;

Poster A: 'Rafa's signed crap players'
Rafalover: 'But he's signed lots of good ones and he didn't have enough money'

Poster B: 'Why on earth is Rafa playing Lucas, he's crap'
Rafalover: 'He's all he's got, poor Rafa'
Poster B: 'Yes, because this is his squad, why doesn't he buy better?'
Rafalover: 'He's got no money, poor Rafa'

'He can't compete with Chelsea or City cos he has no money, poor Rafa' blah blah. It's BS, and I can't believe how many people buy into it. He's had plenty of money, he's just made bad decisions in the transfer market, just like he's made bad decisions with the way he's treated players that he's either ended up losing or destroying to the point where they're completely useless. Just like his poor decisions he makes with subs and line-ups.

I'm sick of hearing the same excuses.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Yeah you're right Richey, I took those figures from a article in the Telegraph about Jose signings in 2005. My mistake and i stand corrected.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

No it's not the same at all Anita!

You said:

"the denial that he's done anything wrong born from the desire to desperately believe he's this wonderful manager which he isn't".

The fact is every single poster on here knows (and has regularly stated) that Rafa has made plenty of mistakes. So please stop vastly exaggerating this point to fit your argument.

Of course posters who still think that Rafa is the right man to manage us will defend "many" of his actions that are being debated, especially when they have some very valid points. You in your infinite wisdom may think that Rafa getting the boot is the obvious solution to all of our clubs problems, but believe it or not, not everyone else is so sure.

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037215#msg1037215 date=1263830898]
No it's not the same at all Anita!

You said:

"the denial that he's done anything wrong born from the desire to desperately believe he's this wonderful manager which he isn't".

The fact is every single poster on here knows (and has regularly stated) that Rafa has made plenty of mistakes.

Of course posters who still think that Rafa is the right man to manage us will defend "many" of his actions that are being debated, especially when they have some very valid points.

You in your infinite wisdom may think that Rafa getting the boot is the obvious solution to all of our clubs problems, but believe it or not, not everyone else is so sure.
[/quote]

RPM, I can't *fathom* how people think he's the best man to carry on with the club in the state that it's in. Seriously, I can't. I can't ever remember things being so bad in my lifetime. Things are as bad as they've been for a long long time, and I don't understand how that isn't as unbearable to others as it is to me. The only way we have to turn things around is for Rafa to go.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I can certainly fathom might still hold out hope that Rafa will come good. There are plenty of reasons to think that. I just don't think he is anymore, then cons outweigh the pro's. Although that could well change, if he turns things around again by the end of the season, and some of these potential signings come good.

 

[Atlas]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037118#msg1037118 date=1263825793]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=38437.msg1037078#msg1037078 date=1263823941]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1036956#msg1036956 date=1263818362]
Houllier didn't have the chavs and City to contend with.
[/quote]

While partially correct, that misses a few points

1. Houllier did have Chelsea to deal towards the end - his last season was the one where they had already become rich
2. He had to contend with other clubs. Newcastle were stronger then and Leeds were spending a shitload of money at one point
3. By the time Benitez took over other teams had fallen away to a degree and the 'big 4' wasn't a huge ask.
4. Man City have only become wealthy recently and they are NOT the reason why we are not currently in the top 4! We haven't even lost to them!! Is hardly the emergence of Man City that has made us lose to Portsmouth, Fulham, Villa and Sunderland is it?
[/quote]

The chavs started to flash the cash seriously in Jose's first year Richey (£150m+ in 2005 alone).

The point is though we've qualified for the CL every season under Rafa so far, now that City have entered the equation, this season it's a much more difficult task than whatever Houllier came up against. Teams like Leeds/Barcodes might have spent decent money, but nowhere near to the scale that City (£200m+ in just over a season) and Chelsea have.

[/quote]

Again I disagree R4pm, City have indeed spent a shed load of cash but just the fact they have spent loads of cash doesn't mean anything, if their performances matched up to the money they had spent then I might agree but they have been inconsistant throughout the season and are not taking the prem by storm by any means, they have basically been as shit as we have this season and we all acknowledge we have been terrible beyond belief.

Rafa's failing to get us (so far) in a top 4 spot is not because the teams around us City, Villa, Spurs have played well and deserved the spot it has been because we have been atrocious since the beginning of the season.

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037228#msg1037228 date=1263831283]
I can certainly fathom might still hold out hope that Rafa will come good. There are plenty of reasons to think that. I just don't think he is anymore, then cons outweigh the pro's. Although that could well change, if he turns things around again by the end of the season, and some of these potential signings come good.
[/quote]

'Turn things around', what does that mean? Finish fourth?

That'd be enough not to leave a sour taste in our mouths, but it would still be time for him to go. He's taken us as far as he can.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037228#msg1037228 date=1263831283]
I can certainly fathom might still hold out hope that Rafa will come good. There are plenty of reasons to think that. I just don't think he is anymore, then cons outweigh the pro's. Although that could well change, if he turns things around again by the end of the season, and some of these potential signings come good.
[/quote]

We're going to need a few things. More players than just Maxi. To get a break with injuries. And a bit of luck which seems to have completely deserted us this season

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1037233#msg1037233 date=1263831399]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037228#msg1037228 date=1263831283]
I can certainly fathom might still hold out hope that Rafa will come good. There are plenty of reasons to think that. I just don't think he is anymore, then cons outweigh the pro's. Although that could well change, if he turns things around again by the end of the season, and some of these potential signings come good.
[/quote]

'Turn things around', what does that mean? Finish fourth?

That'd be enough not to leave a sour taste in our mouths, but it would still be time for him to go. He's taken us as far as he can.
[/quote]

I think it's time to go too. But I'd imagine if he got us playing like last season again and easily finished fourth, he'd do enough to buy another season.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1037222#msg1037222 date=1263831120]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037215#msg1037215 date=1263830898]
No it's not the same at all Anita!

You said:

"the denial that he's done anything wrong born from the desire to desperately believe he's this wonderful manager which he isn't".

The fact is every single poster on here knows (and has regularly stated) that Rafa has made plenty of mistakes.

Of course posters who still think that Rafa is the right man to manage us will defend "many" of his actions that are being debated, especially when they have some very valid points.

You in your infinite wisdom may think that Rafa getting the boot is the obvious solution to all of our clubs problems, but believe it or not, not everyone else is so sure.
[/quote]

RPM, I can't *fathom* how people think he's the best man to carry on with the club in the state that it's in. Seriously, I can't. I can't ever remember things being so bad in my lifetime. Things are as bad as they've been for a long long time, and I don't understand how that isn't as unbearable to others as it is to me. The only way we have to turn things around is for Rafa to go.
[/quote]

It is unbearable at the moment, but I'd prefer to wait until the end of the season and then come to a conclusion on this Anita. Now is not the time to sack Rafa imo, lets see where we finish and then look at what our options are.

 

[Richey]

No probs Rafa4PM

Incidently when you eventually come round to the idea that he should go (they all do in the end) will you be changing the 'M' in your username to '45'?

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037244#msg1037244 date=1263831670]
It is unbearable at the moment, but I'd prefer to wait until the end of the season and then come to a conclusion on this Anita. Now is not the time to sack Rafa imo, lets see where we finish and then look at what our options are.
[/quote]

Ordinarily, I'd agree. I don't think sacking a manager mid-season is the way to go. But we find ourselves in extraordinary circumstances.

If we finish fourth at the end of the season, do you think he should stay?

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=38437.msg1037258#msg1037258 date=1263832266]
No probs Rafa4PM

Incidently when you eventually come round to the idea that he should go (they all do in the end) will you be changing the 'M' in your username to '45'?
[/quote]

I'm not quite ready to give up on Rafa yet, but if it does happen i think "Pepe4PM" has a nice ring to it.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1037260#msg1037260 date=1263832381]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037244#msg1037244 date=1263831670]
It is unbearable at the moment, but I'd prefer to wait until the end of the season and then come to a conclusion on this Anita. Now is not the time to sack Rafa imo, lets see where we finish and then look at what our options are.
[/quote]

Ordinarily, I'd agree. I don't think sacking a manager mid-season is the way to go. But we find ourselves in extraordinary circumstances.

If we finish fourth at the end of the season, do you think he should stay?
[/quote]

Yes i do Anita.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037215#msg1037215 date=1263830898]
No it's not the same at all Anita!

You said:

"the denial that he's done anything wrong born from the desire to desperately believe he's this wonderful manager which he isn't".

The fact is every single poster on here knows (and has regularly stated) that Rafa has made plenty of mistakes. So please stop vastly exaggerating this point to fit your argument.

Of course posters who still think that Rafa is the right man to manage us will defend "many" of his actions that are being debated, especially when they have some very valid points. You in your infinite wisdom may think that Rafa getting the boot is the obvious solution to all of our clubs problems, but believe it or not, not everyone else is so sure.
[/quote]

There's a difference though, between saying he should stay because the alternative 'might' be worse; and justifying his mistakes.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38437.msg1037297#msg1037297 date=1263833737]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037215#msg1037215 date=1263830898]
No it's not the same at all Anita!

You said:

"the denial that he's done anything wrong born from the desire to desperately believe he's this wonderful manager which he isn't".

The fact is every single poster on here knows (and has regularly stated) that Rafa has made plenty of mistakes. So please stop vastly exaggerating this point to fit your argument.

Of course posters who still think that Rafa is the right man to manage us will defend "many" of his actions that are being debated, especially when they have some very valid points. You in your infinite wisdom may think that Rafa getting the boot is the obvious solution to all of our clubs problems, but believe it or not, not everyone else is so sure.
[/quote]

There's a difference though, between saying he should stay because the alternative 'might' be worse; and justifying his mistakes.
[/quote]

If he goes i want someone better than Rafa. That won't be an easy task Avvy.

 

[Avmenon]

Agreed,Raf; and I've actually said that too..

But I don't know how much more of this we can take 🙁

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Its a different world now obviously but we managed to attract one of our two best ever managers whilst in division two. There is hope.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38437.msg1037305#msg1037305 date=1263834148]
Agreed,Raf; and I've actually said that too..

But I don't know how much more of this we can take 🙁
[/quote]

Well lets just hope that after Wednesday things are looking a little better mate.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

The funny thing is if we were to win on Wednesday, we'd be one of the form teams in the league. 10 points from 12, and 13 from 18 in the league. I know that doesn't tell the full story, but if luck started going our way, fourth place shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Squiggles]

I think we should keep him providing we make the CL.

He's got one uphill struggle though.

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38437.msg1037400#msg1037400 date=1263842159]
I think we should keep him providing we make the CL.

[/quote]

Why?

 

[Niall K]

If we keep him having just scraped a champions league spot what exactly does it prove ? Its not progression its just accepting mediocrity. We've been here before,a strong run at the end of the season giving everyone false hope that he's cracked it again, only for our title challenge to be wiped out within a couple of months of the new season.

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1037222#msg1037222 date=1263831120]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037215#msg1037215 date=1263830898]
No it's not the same at all Anita!

You said:

"the denial that he's done anything wrong born from the desire to desperately believe he's this wonderful manager which he isn't".

The fact is every single poster on here knows (and has regularly stated) that Rafa has made plenty of mistakes.

Of course posters who still think that Rafa is the right man to manage us will defend "many" of his actions that are being debated, especially when they have some very valid points.

You in your infinite wisdom may think that Rafa getting the boot is the obvious solution to all of our clubs problems, but believe it or not, not everyone else is so sure.
[/quote]

RPM, I can't *fathom* how people think he's the best man to carry on with the club in the state that it's in. Seriously, I can't. I can't ever remember things being so bad in my lifetime. Things are as bad as they've been for a long long time, and I don't understand how that isn't as unbearable to others as it is to me. The only way we have to turn things around is for Rafa to go.
[/quote]

Well Souness was less than 20 years ago so aren't you the lucky one. Or is it the spoilt one?

Wonderfully dismissive of anyone who doesn't share the same opinion as you too.

 

[Atlas]

Err some of us are not as old as you Spion, I think Anita is one of them.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=38437.msg1037406#msg1037406 date=1263843675]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38437.msg1037400#msg1037400 date=1263842159]
I think we should keep him providing we make the CL.

[/quote]

Why?
[/quote]

Because we'd have achieved our minimum objective at the start of the season.

I'm not really against replacing him now, but if cost ensures we cannot remove him and he turns this season around, I wouldn't mind him staying on for another year. The way I see it is it's Rafa with a possible summer transfer budget or a new manager without any money, and given this squad needs a lot of reinforcement, I would opt for the former.

If we fail to make the CL then he's got to go.