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sack Rafa

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[quote author=Asim link=topic=38437.msg1037031#msg1037031 date=1263821945]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1036956#msg1036956 date=1263818362]
Houllier didn't have the chavs and City to contend with.
[/quote]

GH lost out on a champions league spot to the Chavs, last day of the season when we played them in 2003, he did have to contend with them.
[/quote]

Not in the context that i was obviously referring to Asim.
 
Yes, it may be more difficult to win the league this year, but if Rafa can't do it. We have to at least try and find someone who can.
 
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1037027#msg1037027 date=1263821651]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1037024#msg1037024 date=1263821228]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1036961#msg1036961 date=1263818491]
Last season papered the cracks. The reality is we have far too many players who aren't good enough. This season has adequately exposed that, it's plain for everyone to see.
[/quote]

I slightly disagree Anita. We played some bloody good stuff last year and showed we could mix it with the best. The cracks were papered over in terms of squad depth though I agree there. We didn't replace Alonso and more importantly we never built on the squad we had. Alonso leaving is not the one single reason we've failed miserably it's a number of contributing factors
[/quote]

Alonso leaving isn't the only reason, I agree. But it's a bloody major one. We haven't replaced him in the midfield. The middle of the park dictates the course of a game, without Alonso our midfield is limp. Having Alonso on CM also meant Gerrard had the freedom to concentrate on the offensive part of our game; a luxury he hasn't had this season. This meant our lack of depth in the final third, was manageable. And the attacking brilliant of Gerrard and Torres took the pressure off of our wide players and their lack of goals and ability.

That, coupled with the fact we had four or five world class players who were in top form last season, they dragged everyone's game up a gear.

A weak midfield exposes your defence and starves your strikers; that's what's happened to us this season. I'm not for a second suggesting Alonso is and was the only solution, but out failure to replace him has been a grave error with heartbreaking consequences.
[/quote]

Spot on. The midfield hasn't fully gelled this season and it doesn't help with the stupid amount of injuries we're still having. I do reckon, Rafa (or his medical staff) got it wrong with the recovery rate of Aqualini and the temporary midfield of Lucas and Mascherano has resulted we've us being in the position we're in now. You can also see that as things haven't gone our way, players are getting down which then brings on more gloom and more bad results.

I don't think the immediate sacking of Rafa is the solution but he has to gamble now, make a bigger change as what he's doing now is clearly not working. It could be anything from playing the youngsters, changing formations, getting the defense to man mark, risk playing not-fully match fit players, wheeling dealing in new players or bringing in a 'sports psychiatrist'. I don't care but a change is required otherwise 4th is gone.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037038#msg1037038 date=1263822337]
Yes, it may be more difficult to win the league this year, but if Rafa can't do it. We have to at least try and find someone who can.
[/quote]

That may well prove to be the case Gerry.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1037030#msg1037030 date=1263821883]
I agree with all of that Anita (but I wasn't suggesting you said Alonso was the only problem)
[/quote]

But he kinda is if you think about it ;-)
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037044#msg1037044 date=1263822490]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037038#msg1037038 date=1263822337]
Yes, it may be more difficult to win the league this year, but if Rafa can't do it. We have to at least try and find someone who can.
[/quote]

That may well prove to be the case Gerry.
[/quote]

I think it already has been proven, unfortunately. We can't wait forever.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037034#msg1037034 date=1263822164]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=38437.msg1037031#msg1037031 date=1263821945]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1036956#msg1036956 date=1263818362]
Houllier didn't have the chavs and City to contend with.
[/quote]

GH lost out on a champions league spot to the Chavs, last day of the season when we played them in 2003, he did have to contend with them.
[/quote]

Not in the context that i was obviously referring to Asim.
[/quote]

We can't sit around and wait for others to fall and take their spot as they tumble we have to lay claim on that spot and especially this season are not doing that.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037048#msg1037048 date=1263822701]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037044#msg1037044 date=1263822490]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037038#msg1037038 date=1263822337]
Yes, it may be more difficult to win the league this year, but if Rafa can't do it. We have to at least try and find someone who can.
[/quote]

That may well prove to be the case Gerry.
[/quote]

I think it already has been proven, unfortunately. We can't wait forever.
[/quote]

Under our current circumstances though Gerry, do you think there is a manager around who can win us the league?
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037064#msg1037064 date=1263823224]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037048#msg1037048 date=1263822701]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037044#msg1037044 date=1263822490]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037038#msg1037038 date=1263822337]
Yes, it may be more difficult to win the league this year, but if Rafa can't do it. We have to at least try and find someone who can.
[/quote]

That may well prove to be the case Gerry.
[/quote]

I think it already has been proven, unfortunately. We can't wait forever.
[/quote]

Under our current circumstances Gerry, do you think there is a manager around who can win us the league though?
[/quote]

I really don't know, it's probably unlikely given how long it is since we've won it and how far we seem to be behind the likes of Chelsea. But we have to give it a shot, it's seems pretty obvious Rafa won't do it.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037066#msg1037066 date=1263823384]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037064#msg1037064 date=1263823224]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037048#msg1037048 date=1263822701]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037044#msg1037044 date=1263822490]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037038#msg1037038 date=1263822337]
Yes, it may be more difficult to win the league this year, but if Rafa can't do it. We have to at least try and find someone who can.
[/quote]

That may well prove to be the case Gerry.
[/quote]

I think it already has been proven, unfortunately. We can't wait forever.
[/quote]

Under our current circumstances Gerry, do you think there is a manager around who can win us the league though?
[/quote]

I really don't know, it's probably unlikely given how long it is since we've won it and how far we seem to be behind the likes of Chelsea. But we have to give it a shot, it's seems pretty obvious Rafa won't do it.
[/quote]

Well this season is the first where in which his position is rightly being called into question imo. Under our current circumstances, i'm yet to convinced that changing the manager will solve our problems and give us what we all want.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037076#msg1037076 date=1263823780]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037066#msg1037066 date=1263823384]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037064#msg1037064 date=1263823224]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037048#msg1037048 date=1263822701]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037044#msg1037044 date=1263822490]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037038#msg1037038 date=1263822337]
Yes, it may be more difficult to win the league this year, but if Rafa can't do it. We have to at least try and find someone who can.
[/quote]

That may well prove to be the case Gerry.
[/quote]

I think it already has been proven, unfortunately. We can't wait forever.
[/quote]

Under our current circumstances Gerry, do you think there is a manager around who can win us the league though?
[/quote]

I really don't know, it's probably unlikely given how long it is since we've won it and how far we seem to be behind the likes of Chelsea. But we have to give it a shot, it's seems pretty obvious Rafa won't do it.
[/quote]

Well this season is the first where in which his position is rightly being called into question imo. Under our current circumstances, i'm yet to convinced that changing the manager will solve our problems and give us what we all want.
[/quote]

Will sticking with him do it though? If it's not working, you've got to try and change it.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1036956#msg1036956 date=1263818362]
Houllier didn't have the chavs and City to contend with.
[/quote]

While partially correct, that misses a few points

1. Houllier did have Chelsea to deal towards the end - his last season was the one where they had already become rich
2. He had to contend with other clubs. Newcastle were stronger then and Leeds were spending a shitload of money at one point
3. By the time Benitez took over other teams had fallen away to a degree and the 'big 4' wasn't a huge ask.
4. Man City have only become wealthy recently and they are NOT the reason why we are not currently in the top 4! We haven't even lost to them!! Is hardly the emergence of Man City that has made us lose to Portsmouth, Fulham, Villa and Sunderland is it?
 
It's actually arguable that this season is one of the easiest to finish well, given that everyone else is dropping points left, right and centre.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037077#msg1037077 date=1263823878]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037076#msg1037076 date=1263823780]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037066#msg1037066 date=1263823384]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037064#msg1037064 date=1263823224]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037048#msg1037048 date=1263822701]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037044#msg1037044 date=1263822490]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037038#msg1037038 date=1263822337]
Yes, it may be more difficult to win the league this year, but if Rafa can't do it. We have to at least try and find someone who can.
[/quote]

That may well prove to be the case Gerry.
[/quote]

I think it already has been proven, unfortunately. We can't wait forever.
[/quote]

Under our current circumstances Gerry, do you think there is a manager around who can win us the league though?
[/quote]

I really don't know, it's probably unlikely given how long it is since we've won it and how far we seem to be behind the likes of Chelsea. But we have to give it a shot, it's seems pretty obvious Rafa won't do it.
[/quote]

Well this season is the first where in which his position is rightly being called into question imo. Under our current circumstances, i'm yet to convinced that changing the manager will solve our problems and give us what we all want.
[/quote]

Will sticking with him do it though? If it's not working, you've got to try and change it.
[/quote]

Rafa should be given that chance, if only because of what it'll cost to show him the door. He should be called in by Purslow, preferably with the owners, and asked to spell out in fine detail what he proposes to do to address the problems, on the field (performance) and off (morale), that we seem to have developed. If what he has to say is satisfactory, give him till the end of the season with a minimum requirement of fourth in the league (fifth or lower acceptable only if accompanied by the Europa Cup). If what he has to say isn't satisfactory, bite the bullet and let him go.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037077#msg1037077 date=1263823878]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037076#msg1037076 date=1263823780]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037066#msg1037066 date=1263823384]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037064#msg1037064 date=1263823224]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037048#msg1037048 date=1263822701]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037044#msg1037044 date=1263822490]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037038#msg1037038 date=1263822337]
Yes, it may be more difficult to win the league this year, but if Rafa can't do it. We have to at least try and find someone who can.
[/quote]

That may well prove to be the case Gerry.
[/quote]

I think it already has been proven, unfortunately. We can't wait forever.
[/quote]

Under our current circumstances Gerry, do you think there is a manager around who can win us the league though?
[/quote]

I really don't know, it's probably unlikely given how long it is since we've won it and how far we seem to be behind the likes of Chelsea. But we have to give it a shot, it's seems pretty obvious Rafa won't do it.
[/quote]

Well this season is the first where in which his position is rightly being called into question imo. Under our current circumstances, i'm yet to convinced that changing the manager will solve our problems and give us what we all want.
[/quote]

Will sticking with him do it though? If it's not working, you've got to try and change it.
[/quote]

Again this season i'm starting to doubt wether he can, but it wouldn't be the first time that a side has had a poor season and then followed it up with a very good showing the next (with the same Manager at the helm).

Rafa has his faults but he's proven that he has many attributes as well. When i look at the viable options that would be likely to replace him, then none of them stand out as being a better man for the job.

People on here shout out "Jose" or "Capello", but in all seriousness that is as likely as us signing Ribery (sorry Doc) given our current situation.
 
Raf, the main reason that's unlikely is because of the huge contract he insisted he get, which half of this place was delighted with.

The other half said this contract would come back to hurt us, and guess what?

To now use that as an excuse to keep him kind of sticks in the craw,mate.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38437.msg1037095#msg1037095 date=1263824736]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037077#msg1037077 date=1263823878]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037076#msg1037076 date=1263823780]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037066#msg1037066 date=1263823384]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037064#msg1037064 date=1263823224]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037048#msg1037048 date=1263822701]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037044#msg1037044 date=1263822490]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38437.msg1037038#msg1037038 date=1263822337]
Yes, it may be more difficult to win the league this year, but if Rafa can't do it. We have to at least try and find someone who can.
[/quote]

That may well prove to be the case Gerry.
[/quote]

I think it already has been proven, unfortunately. We can't wait forever.
[/quote]

Under our current circumstances Gerry, do you think there is a manager around who can win us the league though?
[/quote]

I really don't know, it's probably unlikely given how long it is since we've won it and how far we seem to be behind the likes of Chelsea. But we have to give it a shot, it's seems pretty obvious Rafa won't do it.
[/quote]

Well this season is the first where in which his position is rightly being called into question imo. Under our current circumstances, i'm yet to convinced that changing the manager will solve our problems and give us what we all want.
[/quote]

Will sticking with him do it though? If it's not working, you've got to try and change it.
[/quote]

Rafa should be given that chance, if only because of what it'll cost to show him the door. He should be called in by Purslow, preferably with the owners, and asked to spell out in fine detail what he proposes to do to address the problems, on the field (performance) and off (morale), that we seem to have developed. If what he has to say is satisfactory, give him till the end of the season with a minimum requirement of fourth in the league (fifth or lower acceptable only if accompanied by the Europa Cup). If what he has to say isn't satisfactory, bite the bullet and let him go.
[/quote]

What difference would it make what he SAID? He's been proving, week in, week out, for the entire season, that he doesn't have a clue how to improve the situation.
 
He's been too rigid to change his approach, that much is true. What we don't know is whether he's capable of doing so if suitable pressure is put on him by those in authority over him. I'm no happier than Avvy about looking to his contract as a factor in the situation, but the cost involved simply makes it impossible to ignore.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=38437.msg1037078#msg1037078 date=1263823941]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1036956#msg1036956 date=1263818362]
Houllier didn't have the chavs and City to contend with.
[/quote]

While partially correct, that misses a few points

1. Houllier did have Chelsea to deal towards the end - his last season was the one where they had already become rich
2. He had to contend with other clubs. Newcastle were stronger then and Leeds were spending a shitload of money at one point
3. By the time Benitez took over other teams had fallen away to a degree and the 'big 4' wasn't a huge ask.
4. Man City have only become wealthy recently and they are NOT the reason why we are not currently in the top 4! We haven't even lost to them!! Is hardly the emergence of Man City that has made us lose to Portsmouth, Fulham, Villa and Sunderland is it?
[/quote]

The chavs started to flash the cash seriously in Jose's first year Richey (£150m+ in 2005 alone).

The point is though we've qualified for the CL every season under Rafa so far, now that City have entered the equation, this season it's a much more difficult task than whatever Houllier came up against. Teams like Leeds/Barcodes might have spent decent money, but nowhere near to the scale that City (£200m+ in just over a season) and Chelsea have.

Of course we shouldn't have lost many of the games we have to certain teams, and thats why Rafa's job is being rightly being called into question.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037118#msg1037118 date=1263825793]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=38437.msg1037078#msg1037078 date=1263823941]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1036956#msg1036956 date=1263818362]
Houllier didn't have the chavs and City to contend with.
[/quote]

While partially correct, that misses a few points

1. Houllier did have Chelsea to deal towards the end - his last season was the one where they had already become rich
2. He had to contend with other clubs. Newcastle were stronger then and Leeds were spending a shitload of money at one point
3. By the time Benitez took over other teams had fallen away to a degree and the 'big 4' wasn't a huge ask.
4. Man City have only become wealthy recently and they are NOT the reason why we are not currently in the top 4! We haven't even lost to them!! Is hardly the emergence of Man City that has made us lose to Portsmouth, Fulham, Villa and Sunderland is it?
[/quote]

The chavs started to flash the cash seriously in Jose's first year Richey (£150m+ in 2005 alone).

The point is though we've qualified for the CL every season under Rafa so far, now that City have entered the equation, this season it's a much more difficult task than whatever Houllier came up against. Teams like Leeds/Barcodes might have spent decent money, but nowhere near to the scale that City (£200m+ in just over a season) and Chelsea have.

Of course we shouldn't have lost many of the games we have to certain teams, and thats why Rafa's job is being rightly being called into question.

[/quote]

Nope. In 2003/04 they spent about £120 million. In the following summer they spent about £90 million (on fewer players).
I don't think they have ever spent as much in one season as they did in that first one.

Yes in theory it is more difficult with another team being able to buy their way into the top 4 but that is not what has happened so far.

And also, we have had years to cement our place in the top 4 yet we are the ones who are vulnerable to fall out. Essentially with his constant chopping and changing of the squad every year Benitez has not really moved us much further in terms of the league has he?
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037118#msg1037118 date=1263825793]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=38437.msg1037078#msg1037078 date=1263823941]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1036956#msg1036956 date=1263818362]
Houllier didn't have the chavs and City to contend with.
[/quote]

While partially correct, that misses a few points

1. Houllier did have Chelsea to deal towards the end - his last season was the one where they had already become rich
2. He had to contend with other clubs. Newcastle were stronger then and Leeds were spending a shitload of money at one point
3. By the time Benitez took over other teams had fallen away to a degree and the 'big 4' wasn't a huge ask.
4. Man City have only become wealthy recently and they are NOT the reason why we are not currently in the top 4! We haven't even lost to them!! Is hardly the emergence of Man City that has made us lose to Portsmouth, Fulham, Villa and Sunderland is it?
[/quote]

The chavs started to flash the cash seriously in Jose's first year Richey (£150m+ in 2005 alone).

The point is though we've qualified for the CL every season under Rafa so far, now that City have entered the equation, this season it's a much more difficult task than whatever Houllier came up against. Teams like Leeds/Barcodes might have spent decent money, but nowhere near to the scale that City (£200m+ in just over a season) and Chelsea have.

Of course we shouldn't have lost many of the games we have to certain teams, and thats why Rafa's job is being rightly being called into question.





[/quote]
I think you should check again what the chavs spent during the summer 2003.
 
Fuck i didn't think they'd spent that much in the previous season Richey (Allthough Cech didn't arrive until Jose took charge).

Jose first season was surely the most the chavs have spent in one season though?

Aug Michael Essien Lyon £24.4m
July Shaun Wright-Phillips Manchester City £21m
July Lassana Diarra Le Havre £1m
July Scott Sinclair Bristol Rovers £160,000
June Asier Del Horno Athletic Bilbao £8m
Jan Jiri Jarosik CSKA Moscow £4.83m
July Ricardo Carvalho Porto £19.85m
July Didier Drogba Marseille £24m
July Tiago Benfica £8m
July Mateja Kezman PSV Eindhoven £5m
July Paulo Ferreira Porto £13.2m
July Arjen Robben PSV Eindhoven £12m
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=38437.msg1037144#msg1037144 date=1263827988]
Did Essien really join in that first summer?

I thought he came a year later.
[/quote]

Looks like you're right Keni.

On August 14, 2005, Lyon and Chelsea agreed a £30.4 million fee for the Ghanaian, finally ending one of the longest-running transfer sagas.[8][9] At the time, the fee made Essien Chelsea's most expensive signing of all time, beating the £24 million they paid for Didier Drogba the previous summer. The transfer went through on August 19.[10] The transfer came under scrutiny in the Stevens inquiry report, which expressed concerns because of the lack of co-operation from agents Pinhas Zahavi and Barry Silkman.[11]

He made his debut as a second half substitute against Arsenal on August 21, 2005
 
I C&P those figures from the Telegraphs piece about "Jose Mourinho's transfer spending at Chelsea".
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1037139#msg1037139 date=1263827721]
Fuck i didn't think they'd spent that much in the previous season Richey (Allthough Cech didn't arrive until Jose took charge).

Jose first season was surely the most the chavs have spent in one season though?

Aug Michael Essien Lyon £24.4m
July Shaun Wright-Phillips Manchester City £21m
July Lassana Diarra Le Havre £1m
July Scott Sinclair Bristol Rovers £160,000
June Asier Del Horno Athletic Bilbao £8m
Jan Jiri Jarosik CSKA Moscow £4.83m
July Ricardo Carvalho Porto £19.85m
July Didier Drogba Marseille £24m
July Tiago Benfica £8m
July Mateja Kezman PSV Eindhoven £5m
July Paulo Ferreira Porto £13.2m
July Arjen Robben PSV Eindhoven £12m





[/quote]

Interesting how many of them are still there as well...
 
I support Liverpool Football Club, I've supported them long before Rafa was here and I will continue to support them long after he's gone.

It's as though some people have lost sight of that and simply become Rafa fans, and the club comes second. As long as Rafa was good for Liverpool, I was with him, now it's clear he no longer is, and therefore I'm done with him.
 
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=38437.msg1037157#msg1037157 date=1263829049]
I support Liverpool Football Club, I've supported them long before Rafa was here and I will continue to support them long after he's gone.

It's as though some people have lost sight of that and simply become Rafa fans, and the club comes second. As long as Rafa was good for Liverpool, I was with him, now it's clear he no longer is, and therefore I'm done with him.
[/quote]

Thats obviously not the case Anita.

It's just that some don't think that getting rid of Rafa will be good for our club.
 
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