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Post Game Thoughts.

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[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=46439.msg1380313#msg1380313 date=1313404695]
Agreed, I think we lost alot of the game in the middle of the park, we were overran at times. I would have preferred to see Spearing in there tbh, he covers alot more ground than Lucas, him and Adam seemed content to sit. A few tactical changes from fathead at half time and they exploited this no end,
[/quote]

We are definitely on the same page here.

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=46439.msg1380313#msg1380313 date=1313404695]
we don't really have the players to play 442, certainly not from an attacking point of view anyway, Adam needs the added protection of a 3rd body in there and neither Kuyt or Henderson seem to be particularly comfortable on the right in a flat midfield four.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that about Henderson just yet, maybe he needs time to grow into the role. I still know very little about him tbh so I'm still hopeful about him. Gerrard coming back will complicate matters even further as I can't see anyone playing alongside him in a 4-4-2 other than Lucas or maybe Spearing (but I'm not convinced he is in the first team plans as anything but a squad player). I suppose Gerrard could play on the right, but I prefer him in the middle where he has more of the ball.
Adam - Gerrard
Ming - Gerrard
Aqua - Gerrard
Would all be relatively soft

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=46439.msg1380313#msg1380313 date=1313404695]
I'd like to see Suarez move wide sometimes with Carroll in the middle and Ming or Aquilani in behind. Or just drop Carroll for certain games.
[/quote]

Definitely. However dropping a £35 million striker isn't always easy for many reasons.
 
Ideally we could play, with everyone available:

-----------------Reina-----------------
Johnson--Carra--Agger--Enrique
-----------Lucas--Adam--------------
---------------Gerrard----------------
--Suarez-----Carroll------Downing

That's arguably our best side (though I don't really want to overstate a case for Lucas, we just have no one else and it's foolish to say we can play one of our attacking midfielders (like Ming or Aquilani) instead. Harsh on Kuyt aswell I guess, but I'd like to see something like that if/when everyone is fit. 442 is less flexible and like I said, we don't really have the players for it anyway. Regards Henderson growing into the right midfield role, time and patience isn't really a luxury we can afford but let's face it, he's gonna play because of the transfer fee.
 
Agreed again.

I'm going to GC to find someone to find someone to argue with.
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=46439.msg1380333#msg1380333 date=1313407438]
Agree with you Mark....but Gerrard will be the quickest player in that midfield....which concerns me..
[/quote]
Remember the "best midfield in the world"? He was quickest then as well. Granted the players around him might not be of quite the same quality, but it shows that speed is not as important as people make out.
 
Not sure what Merieles has done to be dropped from the first 11, I would put him above Adam every time in my team. His short passing is excellent and is mobile, Lucal and him to start against Arsenal for me.
 
[quote author=iseered link=topic=46439.msg1380345#msg1380345 date=1313410379]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=46439.msg1380333#msg1380333 date=1313407438]
Agree with you Mark....but Gerrard will be the quickest player in that midfield....which concerns me..
[/quote]
Remember the "best midfield in the world"? He was quickest then as well. Granted the players around him might not be of quite the same quality, but it shows that speed is not as important as people make out.
[/quote]

ya Gerrard back then was quite quick and as was Masher...
 
[quote author=rubans link=topic=46439.msg1380348#msg1380348 date=1313410526]
Not sure what Merieles has done to be dropped from the first 11, I would put him above Adam every time in my team. His short passing is excellent and is mobile, Lucal and him to start against Arsenal for me.
[/quote]

true....but as long as Adam's setpiece ability delivers an end product like in the last game, we will have ti find a place for him in the team. I would have liked for it to come at Lucas' expense, but it was Raul who got dropped unfortunately......
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=46439.msg1380373#msg1380373 date=1313414236]
[quote author=rubans link=topic=46439.msg1380348#msg1380348 date=1313410526]
Not sure what Merieles has done to be dropped from the first 11, I would put him above Adam every time in my team. His short passing is excellent and is mobile, Lucal and him to start against Arsenal for me.
[/quote]

true....but as long as Adam's setpiece ability delivers an end product like in the last game, we will have ti find a place for him in the team. I would have liked for it to come at Lucas' expense, but it was Raul who got dropped unfortunately......
[/quote]

I agree, and I thought, despite what others think, that our Charles is not averse to putting his foot in. He is an excellent addition

regards
 
I thought Lucas was shite again. I couldnt believe he started after having less than one friendly under his belt.
I want to see Meireles start with Adam next match.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46439.msg1380403#msg1380403 date=1313418065]

I agree, and I thought, despite what others think, that our Charles is not averse to putting his foot in. He is an excellent addition

regards
[/quote]

That was a problem for us against Sunderland. He put his foot in too much, and left it there when the player was down (lucky the ref didn't see it otherwise that was red). That gifted possession to Sunderland and broke the flow of our game. He needs to be told to sort that out IMO.
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=46439.msg1380417#msg1380417 date=1313420667]
I thought Lucas was shite again. I couldnt believe he started after having less than one friendly under his belt.
I want to see Meireles start with Adam next match.
[/quote]

In which case we'll get overran in midfield even more than we did against Sunderland, I think the midfield needs to be a three man one, none of them seem as confident in a two man centre mid, add the fact that it was Suarez in the hole as opposed to someone like Ming, we lost that extra bit of cover in there.
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=46439.msg1380463#msg1380463 date=1313426200]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46439.msg1380403#msg1380403 date=1313418065]

I agree, and I thought, despite what others think, that our Charles is not averse to putting his foot in. He is an excellent addition

regards
[/quote]

That was a problem for us against Sunderland. He put his foot in too much, and left it there when the player was down (lucky the ref didn't see it otherwise that was red). That gifted possession to Sunderland and broke the flow of our game. He needs to be told to sort that out IMO.
[/quote]

He does not need to cut it out, just get it right

regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46439.msg1380478#msg1380478 date=1313427612]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=46439.msg1380463#msg1380463 date=1313426200]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46439.msg1380403#msg1380403 date=1313418065]

I agree, and I thought, despite what others think, that our Charles is not averse to putting his foot in. He is an excellent addition

regards
[/quote]

That was a problem for us against Sunderland. He put his foot in too much, and left it there when the player was down (lucky the ref didn't see it otherwise that was red). That gifted possession to Sunderland and broke the flow of our game. He needs to be told to sort that out IMO.
[/quote]

He does not need to cut it out, just get it right

regards
[/quote]

It's a hard thing to teach though when you're 24/25 and still can't tackle, that said, it never did Scholes much harm.
 
I really don't mind someone putting it about in midfield and letting them know they are there, Charlie usually gets it more right than he did second half Saturday, as will the rest of the team.
The one that did give daft possession away was Lucas with his fanny tackles

regards
 
Lucas may have done fanny tackles, but adam did stupid tackles, that were just as dangerous as any lucas conceded
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=46439.msg1380483#msg1380483 date=1313428175]
Lucas may have done fanny tackles, but adam did stupid tackles, that were just as dangerous as any lucas conceded
[/quote]

I was pretty happy with Lucas and his tackles with the exception of one or two sill frees which I thought he'd removed from his game at the end of last season. His passing, however, in the first half was streets ahead of Adams. He hit his man - long or short - seemingly every time while his scottish midfield partner did not.

I know people liked seeing someone in this so called QB role but there's a difference between spraying passes around to your team mates and what Adams did against Sunderland. One exceptional set piece aside which, admittedly, provided a goal his passing was woeful. He didn't hit them he floated them and while they may have found their mark they hung in the air so long the defense had them surrounded nearly every time. The idea of passing is to give it to a player in a better position than yourself but that rarely happened with Charlie's passing and he's got to either start hitting the passes instead of lofting them or make them shorter.

I think the signs were pretty good - Kenny will work on the 2nd half debacle - and Downing in particular was a success. He could really make a difference for us this season though, I must admit, I do believe we still need someone out wide on the right.
 
Lucas will be fine and stand up to Song who isn't anything to write home about. Diaby may be a bit too quick for him. Lucas has to up his tempo in all he does.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46439.msg1380480#msg1380480 date=1313427929]
The one that did give daft possession away was Lucas with his fanny tackles

regards
[/quote]

[quote author=themn link=topic=46182.msg1368384#msg1368384 date=1311326347]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46182.msg1368366#msg1368366 date=1311323014]
have to defend Ossi on this Ross is the culprit he nicked some stuff from the Mata thread when people were talking about DMs.

it is becoming very tedious, but I can't help rising to the bait. I promise not to utter another word about the distinctly average chap.
[/quote]

*quoted for future reference*
[/quote]
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=46439.msg1380503#msg1380503 date=1313430706]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46439.msg1380480#msg1380480 date=1313427929]
The one that did give daft possession away was Lucas with his fanny tackles

regards
[/quote]

[quote author=themn link=topic=46182.msg1368384#msg1368384 date=1311326347]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=46182.msg1368366#msg1368366 date=1311323014]
have to defend Ossi on this Ross is the culprit he nicked some stuff from the Mata thread when people were talking about DMs.

it is becoming very tedious, but I can't help rising to the bait. I promise not to utter another word about the distinctly average chap.
[/quote]

*quoted for future reference*
[/quote]
[/quote]

Stop it...........In that thread

regards
 
id like to see spearing and adam in the midfield, he doesnt give away as many stupid free kicks as lucas and he seems to have bags of energy
 
since alonso fucked off we really miss that calm assured passing when things are going tits up. when we are in control we are fine but the moment we face resistence we start panicking and hoofing. it's pretty fucking SHIT to be perfectly honest. I have no idea why we can't just pass it sideways, backwards, ANYWHERE that doesn't involve sending an aimless ball down the fucking pitch.

people go on about lucas rarely giving the ball away, he was as guilty as anyone in the second half.
 
Erm, I had loads of thoughts the other night but seem to have forgotten most of them now.

Anyway...

- Bar the inital 'gung-ho' first 45, we were pretty ordinary and a point was fair all round. I thought Sunderland's shape and style was better than ours over the 90 too. their defence is shite and we should have exposed it more, but ho-hum they were full value.

- We're very one-sided. Enrique and Downing combined well for a while, but after Sunderland could see that we were only pushing forward out of one flank, they quickly added numbers in there and Downing had to be shifted to the right. Henderson and Flanagan offered nothing. No drive, no interplay, no threat. It weakened our balance and entire attacks. If you're only moving forward down one flank continually, it's easy to defend against; and is why Sir Alex has always believed in the value and threat of two quality wide men. Kuyt would have added a bit more directivity than Henderson who looked like he was more concerned about doing nothing wrong than doing something right.

- Our midfield was pretty average. Cattermole being booked early should have lead to greater emphasis comeing from the midfield two. I can't rememeber Adam and Lucas exhancging many passes between the two of them, which tells us we weren't either able or looking to hurt them inside. The emphasis was either on Lucas keeping it simple and short, or Adam showing us all he can ping a Hollywood ball. Again, fucking easy to defend against.
What we miss more than anything is a midfielder who can continually builds pressure. Look at Alonso, Scholes, Xavi, etc - if a sustained period of attacking and pressure is happening they'd be involved to close to half of the passes going on. Everything continually flows through them until one of your quality attackers finds space (or the opposing shitkicker like Cattermole gets fed up and picks up a second yellow). The way we play, Lucas isn't playing any damaging passes, and Adam is thinking that his one quality ping is enough. It aint on either case. So we end up just shifting the ball to Suarez or Downing and hoping they can magic something up out of a shit position. It's again, crap and easy to defend against.

- Balls to Carroll. They're fucking rubbish. It's all fair and well decrying his heading and movement, but if the ball's coming to him from 50 yards from goal, it's again easy to defend against. Newcastle played to his strengths by getting around the back and supplying him with opportunities to face the opposition goal not the other way around like we do. We either work out a way to supply better delivery, or we don't play him cos it's a waste of time.

- World class attacking players. We've spent 100M odd and still only have two of them; Gerrard and Suarez. I've banged on about this since the apple fell out fo the tree, but improving the squad (as I'm led to believe we've done) means you pick up draws here and there. Adding world class players means you're harder to play against and that you turn saturday's shit performances into 2-1 wins.

- Oh, and finally our style of play is one-dimensional and block shaped. everything is done in straight lines, sideqways, forwards. No triangles, no real clever movement off the ball, no imaginative interplay, nio quick short passing. You can see what we're going to do 20 seconds before it happens.
 
with all due respect to ryan's post (which I mostly agree with) everything I want to see from the team I saw first half, meaning the tools are there but we need to be able to sustain that tempo for a full 90 minutes.

a lot of assumptions being made on the second half,

1. johnson is no more than two weeks away from full fitness.
this will increase our attacking threat down the right hand side

2. henderson (you'd hope) wont be as cautious again.
a debut infront of a 45,000 crowd against your boyhood team you've supported and then played for since you were a child couldn't have been easy. people advocate slick one touch passing, to me henderson showed he can slot into that type of play because many of his passes were made with one touch so we held onto possession

I say judge us when we are fitter and when we have a few games under our belt.
'don't look at the table until you've played 10 games' I can't remember which player/manager said it but it but it's a reasonable rule of thumb.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=46439.msg1380774#msg1380774 date=1313477521]
with all due respect to ryan's post (which I mostly agree with) everything I want to see from the team I saw first half, meaning the tools are there but we need to be able to sustain that tempo for a full 90 minutes.

a lot of assumptions being made on the second half,

1. johnson is no more than two weeks away from full fitness.
this will increase our attacking threat down the right hand side

2. henderson (you'd hope) wont be as cautious again.
a debut infront of a 45,000 crowd against your boyhood team you've supported and then played for since you were a child couldn't have been easy. people advocate slick one touch passing, to me henderson showed he can slot into that type of play because many of his passes were made with one touch so we held onto possession

I say judge us when we are fitter and when we have a few games under our belt.
'don't look at the table until you've played 10 games' I can't remember which player/manager said it but it but it's a reasonable rule of thumb.

[/quote]

'Don't throw away leads to mid-table clubs at home' is another reasonable one.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=46439.msg1380780#msg1380780 date=1313480816]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=46439.msg1380774#msg1380774 date=1313477521]
with all due respect to ryan's post (which I mostly agree with) everything I want to see from the team I saw first half, meaning the tools are there but we need to be able to sustain that tempo for a full 90 minutes.

a lot of assumptions being made on the second half,

1. johnson is no more than two weeks away from full fitness.
this will increase our attacking threat down the right hand side

2. henderson (you'd hope) wont be as cautious again.
a debut infront of a 45,000 crowd against your boyhood team you've supported and then played for since you were a child couldn't have been easy. people advocate slick one touch passing, to me henderson showed he can slot into that type of play because many of his passes were made with one touch so we held onto possession

I say judge us when we are fitter and when we have a few games under our belt.
'don't look at the table until you've played 10 games' I can't remember which player/manager said it but it but it's a reasonable rule of thumb.

[/quote]

'Don't throw away leads to mid-table clubs at home' is another reasonable one.
[/quote]

well, if suarez wasn't so penalty hungry we'd have a 2 goal lead to throw away
 
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