N'Gog

[rage]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=36729.msg972583#msg972583 date=1256658631]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972546#msg972546 date=1256655260]
i actually think rafa has got it right with n'gog. if he'd done the same with a keeper, a centre back, a left back, a right back (degen, doseena, the greek and the brazillian keeper that replaced itandje) then we'd be 20 to 25 million pounds better off.
[/quote]

Rafa got it right with a player he bought in N'Gog. He wasn't already here - he came at the same time as some of the others you mention.

[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972570#msg972570 date=1256658172]
we could easily have managed without these players if we had trusted kids like n'gog. insua and kelly

these players are already here. i'm not saying substitute one set of players for another new set of players.
[/quote]

So, Rafa bought N'Gog and Insua, okay, we can keep him. So that still leaves us with a keeper, right back and centre back that we need figures on. Go.
[/quote]

insua was here before we bought the fat bastard. keep up

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Insua most certainly wasn't ready to start in the first team when we bought Dossena(who granted looks like a waste of money).

 

[dee]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=36729.msg972583#msg972583 date=1256658631]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972546#msg972546 date=1256655260]
i actually think rafa has got it right with n'gog. if he'd done the same with a keeper, a centre back, a left back, a right back (degen, doseena, the greek and the brazillian keeper that replaced itandje) then we'd be 20 to 25 million pounds better off.
[/quote]

Rafa got it right with a player he bought in N'Gog. He wasn't already here - he came at the same time as some of the others you mention.

[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972570#msg972570 date=1256658172]
we could easily have managed without these players if we had trusted kids like n'gog. insua and kelly

these players are already here. i'm not saying substitute one set of players for another new set of players.
[/quote]

So, Rafa bought N'Gog and Insua, okay, we can keep him. So that still leaves us with a keeper, right back and centre back that we need figures on. Go.
[/quote]

Oh and (I know you don't need help here Keni - I'm just jumping in) Kelly wasn't ready 18 months ago. He done okay in the last couple of months. He is, after all, only just 19 now!

 

[rage]

[quote author=Dee link=topic=36729.msg972588#msg972588 date=1256658844]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36729.msg972583#msg972583 date=1256658631]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972546#msg972546 date=1256655260]
i actually think rafa has got it right with n'gog. if he'd done the same with a keeper, a centre back, a left back, a right back (degen, doseena, the greek and the brazillian keeper that replaced itandje) then we'd be 20 to 25 million pounds better off.
[/quote]

Rafa got it right with a player he bought in N'Gog. He wasn't already here - he came at the same time as some of the others you mention.

[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972570#msg972570 date=1256658172]
we could easily have managed without these players if we had trusted kids like n'gog. insua and kelly

these players are already here. i'm not saying substitute one set of players for another new set of players.
[/quote]

So, Rafa bought N'Gog and Insua, okay, we can keep him. So that still leaves us with a keeper, right back and centre back that we need figures on. Go.
[/quote]

Oh and (I know you don't need help here Keni - I'm just jumping in) Kelly wasn't ready 18 months ago. He done okay in the last couple of MonthsHe is, after all, only 19 now!
[/quote]

better than never being ready like sick note i'm going home at half time degen.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972584#msg972584 date=1256658700]
ah so you don't like things being taken out of context do you not?

nor do you like someone ignoring a later post you've made to explain what you said either?

me brainless...... remind me what you do for a living shithead?
[/quote]

First off, is there any justifiable reason why this WUM is still on here?

What the fuck is your point? You took my quote out of context to give your pointless argument credence, no one has said anywhere that his transfer mistakes have amounted to 'just £8m," anyone can read what I've said.

 

[keniget]

I see you're trying to worm your way out of answering the question. Colour me surprised.

For all the thousands of pounds you spend, you would barely know Kelly's name had it not been for that performance against Lyon.

So with the assumption that you don't think Rafa buys shit players knowing that they're shit - only a madman would think that - and your theory that a cash strapped club should rely on it's youth, I'm guessing that you were in favour of not buying Riera and instead using Hammill. And not buying Yossi, but instead using Anderson. Amirite? We'd have been £20M-£25M better off I reckon.

 

[dee]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972590#msg972590 date=1256658903]

[quote author=dee]
Oh and (I know you don't need help here Keni - I'm just jumping in) Kelly wasn't ready 18 months ago. He done okay in the last couple of MonthsHe is, after all, only 19 now!
[/quote]

better than never being ready like sick note i'm going home at half time degen.
[/quote]

On the strength of the 2 reserve and 1 senior game I've seen Kelly play versus the 2 senior games I've seen Degen then you may be right but again it doesn't cover your point (which I think) is that we could have avoided signing Degen 18 months ago and saved his wages.

We needed a right back and we had bollocks all cash so we got Degen out of the bargain basement. Whether it was Degen or somebody else we would still have had to pay their wages. I haven't heard that Degen is paid anything spectacular (over and above the obscene amounts players get anyway)

 

[rage]

[quote author=Dee link=topic=36729.msg972582#msg972582 date=1256658593]
I'll take that as a "No, I can't let this go and I want to dig my hole a little deeper"

1. We needed to have a back-up keeper I'm guessing (could be wrong) that Cavalry is paid the average for a back-up keeper. I certainly wouldn't call him shit - he seems reasonably competent for the EPL.

2. We needed a back-up right back. So we had to pay somebody, I'd prefer someone other than Degen but even a £2M who elese could you have bought?

3. If we really couldn't persuade Sami to stay then we needed cover. Zorba seems to be competent and, most importantly, cheap. Who else could we have had for £1.5M?

4. Dossena is shite

Go on save us £25M
[/quote]

1. i'd have promoted a kid a brought in someone experienced on a free to provide cover for reina rather than spend 3 million. at the very least i'd have got rid of my previous shit reserve keeper first before buying another keeper. the pair of them have cost us over 5 million easily

2. i wouldn't have bought anyone. darby whilst average could have done everything degen did last year and kelly is better this year

3. zorba was a panic buy. the kids were improving all the time. how many games do you think he'll play in his liverpool career?

4. doseena alone by the end of the season will have cost us over 11 million pounds.

there's an easy 25 million there. i'm including wages because that seems to be the way we as a team now calculate player expenditure

 

[Atlas]

Bloody hell.

 

[rage]

out of context mark?

Of course there have been misses; Pelegrino, Voronin, Josemi, Morientes, (for example), but those four alone cost a combined £8m in transfer fees, hardly devastating.

why pick out those 4? why use the combined £8 million and then say hardly devastating?

 

[rage]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=36729.msg972597#msg972597 date=1256659265]
I see you're trying to worm your way out of answering the question. Colour me surprised.

For all the thousands of pounds you spend, you would barely know Kelly's name had it not been for that performance against Lyon.

So with the assumption that you don't think Rafa buys shit players knowing that they're shit - only a madman would think that - and your theory that a cash strapped club should rely on it's youth, I'm guessing that you were in favour of not buying Riera and instead using Hammill. And not buying Yossi, but instead using Anderson. Amirite? We'd have been £20M-£25M better off I reckon.
[/quote]

i'd be please if rafa bought players that he'd actually seen.

yossi was a replacement for garcia
and yes i would have given hamill a go before panic buying riera.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972599#msg972599 date=1256659439]
3. zorba was a panic buy. the kids were improving all the time. how many games do you think he'll play in his liverpool career?
[/quote]

Sometimes clubs have to panic buy, look at United with Taibi and Blanc, or us with Jones.

Hindsight is great and all, no one knew he was going to get injured, and he didn't exactly do much wrong on his debut anyway. "The kids were improving all the time", do you watch the reserves? At no point have any of them looked particularly ready for first team football, and while Degen has been injured more often than not, Darby is a poor player so once again, hindsight is a great weapon to use 'for' your argument.

And I see once again you've managed to bend the facts to suit your purpose regards now including wages. If that's the case, perhaps we should also take into account those that have gone off the wage bill of late, high earners like Finnan, Hyypia, Riise, Alonso etc..

Just to cloud your figures even more like.

 

[dee]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972599#msg972599 date=1256659439]
1. i'd have promoted a kid a brought in someone experienced on a free to provide cover for reina rather than spend 3 million. at the very least i'd have got rid of my previous shit reserve keeper first before buying another keeper. the pair of them have cost us over 5 million easily

2. i wouldn't have bought anyone. darby whilst average could have done everything degen did last year and kelly is better this year

3. zorba was a panic buy. the kids were improving all the time. how many games do you think he'll play in his liverpool career?

4. doseena alone by the end of the season will have cost us over 11 million pounds.

there's an easy 25 million there. i'm including wages because that seems to be the way we as a team now calculate player expenditure[/quote]

Dear lord.

So we would have either David Martin (currently on loan at Mighty Tranmere) or Dean Bouzanis (currently on-loan at Wrexham). Whilst I rate Bouzanis how many other top EPL sides have a 19 year old as their backup keeper?

Then not buying Zorba means potentially having an 18 year old centre back - toss in Darby on the right and we can all see the logic to your arguement :'(

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I think Marks point was the majority of Rafas misses in the transfer market have been relatively cheap ones, and almost all of his buys over £8m have been successes. Overall his record is quite good I'd say, it's easy to pick on bad buys, but no manager doesn't have them, and the other big teams have, in general, made much bigger blunders than Rafa has.

Obviously there have been a few cheap successes and the occasional expensive mistake.

 

[dee]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972605#msg972605 date=1256659840]
i'd be please if rafa bought players that he'd actually seen.

yossi was a replacement for garcia
and yes i would have given hamill a go before panic buying riera.
[/quote]

You know I suspect he saw Hammill! His performance level has been sub-Championship for two seasons now - Anderson was an upgrade but also not good enough for the EPL - never mind top four.

 

[rage]

[quote author=Asim link=topic=36729.msg972578#msg972578 date=1256658518]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972569#msg972569 date=1256657963]

nonsense

the league is now a lot stronger? maybe this season but the last 5 its been pretty constant

[/quote]

No way, the years Chelsea won with a gazillion pounds behind them and the squad.
They changed the goalposts loads and the league is so much stronger now than it has been in the past, pointing to the English teams dominance in Europe also indicates this to be true
[/quote]

its all relative. the same top 4 teams are there. english teams have dominated europe since before rafa arrived. when do you want to start measuring from? i don't think much has changed during the time rafa's been here. it's only this season so far that we have seen spurs, city and villa appear like they may compete. we'll know at the end of the season if they have or not.

i don't go for the its harder to win the league last season than it was 5 seasons ago.

 

[rage]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36729.msg972606#msg972606 date=1256659859]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972599#msg972599 date=1256659439]
3. zorba was a panic buy. the kids were improving all the time. how many games do you think he'll play in his liverpool career?
[/quote]

Sometimes clubs have to panic buy, look at United with Taibi and Blanc, or us with Jones.

Hindsight is great and all, no one knew he was going to get injured, and he didn't exactly do much wrong on his debut anyway. "The kids were improving all the time", do you watch the reserves? At no point have any of them looked particularly ready for first team football, and while Degen has been injured more often than not, Darby is a poor player so once again, hindsight is a great weapon to use 'for' your argument.

And I see once again you've managed to bend the facts to suit your purpose regards now including wages. If that's the case, perhaps we should also take into account those that have gone off the wage bill of late, high earners like Finnan, Hyypia, Riise, Alonso etc..

Just to cloud your figures even more like.
[/quote]

they were winners

 

[rage]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36729.msg972611#msg972611 date=1256660032]
I think Marks point was the majority of Rafas misses in the transfer market have been relatively cheap ones, and almost all of his buys over £8m have been successes. Overall his record is quite good I'd say, it's easy to pick on bad buys, but no manager doesn't have them, and the other big teams have, in general, made much bigger blunders than Rafa has.

Obviously there have been a few cheap successes and the occasional expensive mistake.
[/quote]

too many relatively cheap blunders add up to a lot of money.

 

[dee]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36729.msg972606#msg972606 date=1256659859]
Sometimes clubs have to panic buy, look at United with Taibi and Blanc, or us with Jones.
[/quote]

Joey? Rob? I'm missing this one! Who am I missing? It's goingto be obvious when you tell me!

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Paul

 

[RolandG]

I like Eggnog. He is quick, has good pace and not afraid to take on players. Not the finished article by a mile but has shown enough talent to suggest a bright future. Hardwork and application is the right way to go about it.

 

[rage]

[quote author=RolandG link=topic=36729.msg972626#msg972626 date=1256660771]
I like Eggnog. He is quick, has good pace and not afraid to take on players. Not the finished article by a mile but has shown enough talent to suggest a bright future. Hardwork and application is the right way to go about it.
[/quote]

agreed

 

[dee]

[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=36729.msg972624#msg972624 date=1256660728]
Paul
[/quote]

The goalie? He only got a one month contract didn't he!

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Needs a better first touch. If he sorts it we could be on to something...

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972621#msg972621 date=1256660463]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36729.msg972611#msg972611 date=1256660032]
I think Marks point was the majority of Rafas misses in the transfer market have been relatively cheap ones, and almost all of his buys over £8m have been successes. Overall his record is quite good I'd say, it's easy to pick on bad buys, but no manager doesn't have them, and the other big teams have, in general, made much bigger blunders than Rafa has.

Obviously there have been a few cheap successes and the occasional expensive mistake.
[/quote]

too many relatively cheap blunders add up to a lot of money.
[/quote]

Ok Rage, just to balance this a bit and try and get you to use some perspective, go add up our successes and then value the amount wasted on 'mistakes' and the amount invested in top class talent.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Dee link=topic=36729.msg972631#msg972631 date=1256660823]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=36729.msg972624#msg972624 date=1256660728]
Paul
[/quote]

The goalie? He only got a one month contract didn't he!
[/quote]

Yep, still a panic buy though (given we paid him wages, eh Rage?), I'm sure Rage would have wanted us to promote a ressie instead though.

 

[dee]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36729.msg972637#msg972637 date=1256660908]
Yep, still a panic buy though (given we paid him wages, eh Rage?), I'm sure Rage would have wanted us to promote a ressie instead though.
[/quote]

Presumably pre-Carson as I'm reasonably sure he was a Rafa signing from Leeds

 

[rage]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36729.msg972633#msg972633 date=1256660846]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972621#msg972621 date=1256660463]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36729.msg972611#msg972611 date=1256660032]
I think Marks point was the majority of Rafas misses in the transfer market have been relatively cheap ones, and almost all of his buys over £8m have been successes. Overall his record is quite good I'd say, it's easy to pick on bad buys, but no manager doesn't have them, and the other big teams have, in general, made much bigger blunders than Rafa has.

Obviously there have been a few cheap successes and the occasional expensive mistake.
[/quote]

too many relatively cheap blunders add up to a lot of money.
[/quote]

Ok Rage, just to balance this a bit and try and get you to use some perspective, go add up our successes and then value the amount wasted on 'mistakes' and the amount invested in top class talent.


[/quote]

i manage success in league titles.

 

[Atlas]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972616#msg972616 date=1256660243]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=36729.msg972578#msg972578 date=1256658518]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972569#msg972569 date=1256657963]

nonsense

the league is now a lot stronger? maybe this season but the last 5 its been pretty constant

[/quote]

No way, the years Chelsea won with a gazillion pounds behind them and the squad.
They changed the goalposts loads and the league is so much stronger now than it has been in the past, pointing to the English teams dominance in Europe also indicates this to be true
[/quote]

its all relative. the same top 4 teams are there. english teams have dominated europe since before rafa arrived. when do you want to start measuring from? i don't think much has changed during the time rafa's been here. it's only this season so far that we have seen spurs, city and villa appear like they may compete. we'll know at the end of the season if they have or not.

i don't go for the its harder to win the league last season than it was 5 seasons ago.
[/quote]

The Chelsea team of now is loads better then the Chelsea team of GH era, Ronaldo in the United side also raised the bar for United, although as a squad they were just as good before Rafa go here. the league is much harder now because there is so much more money going around now.
The English teams were not as dominant in Europe as they are now, back then really only United produced by getting to a final.
More recently (since Rafa started) the English teams have got to the semi finals regularily.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972642#msg972642 date=1256661220]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36729.msg972633#msg972633 date=1256660846]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36729.msg972621#msg972621 date=1256660463]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36729.msg972611#msg972611 date=1256660032]
I think Marks point was the majority of Rafas misses in the transfer market have been relatively cheap ones, and almost all of his buys over £8m have been successes. Overall his record is quite good I'd say, it's easy to pick on bad buys, but no manager doesn't have them, and the other big teams have, in general, made much bigger blunders than Rafa has.

Obviously there have been a few cheap successes and the occasional expensive mistake.
[/quote]

too many relatively cheap blunders add up to a lot of money.
[/quote]

Ok Rage, just to balance this a bit and try and get you to use some perspective, go add up our successes and then value the amount wasted on 'mistakes' and the amount invested in top class talent.


[/quote]

i manage success in league titles.
[/quote]

So you don't celebrate cup success ?