I'm pretty certain there will always be outliers. Austria with Fritzl for example.
Middle East Violence (content may offend)
- Thread starter The Nomad
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I'm pretty certain there will always be outliers. Austria with Fritzl for example.
14 Israelis suspected of running child sex trafficking ring in Colombia
Network allegedly marketed trips from Israel for tourists to have sex with minors who were forced into prostitution; 6 Israelis held, arrest warrants issued for other suspects
www.google.com
Israel: Human rights abuses of women trafficked from countries of the former Soviet Union into Israel's sex industry - Amnesty International
Every year hundreds of women, including girls, are trafficked from the countries of the former Soviet Union to work in Israel’s sex industry. Many of these women are subjected to human rights abuses in Israel. Under Israeli law, virtually all these women are illegal aliens, making them...
www.amnesty.org
Outliers? It's rampant and on the increase. Jeffrey Epstein for example, and he's just a famous example of someone that has exploited children for sex, there's a whole industry.
Israel have killed both Hamas and Hezbollah leaders and then continued to pound and kill civilians and damage infrastructure.
Re circle of hatred, this 'conflict' has only been different because of social media. Israel have still not allowed in any foreign journalists into Gaza to verify or disagree with the info provided, it means they then can control the narrative also.
However, the argument is, this level of aggression has been prevalent for decades.
Killing, maiming, murdering innocent people creating more people who have a hatred towards them. It's just not seen that light of day very often because it's not in the usual western news cycle.
The numbers of people in military prisons without trial etc is in the thousands, including children.
Interesting to note, musk said very similar shortly after Israel started bombing Gaza on lex Friedmans podcast.
I think the point about killing leaders means that if there was a higher chance they would go for you and not the cannon fodder then the powers that be might think twice about invading somewhere.
I'm not saying I agree or whatever, just thought it was a fair enough point.
View: https://x.com/DD_Geopolitics/status/1842676539047244184
Still here.
Killing murdering people.
This isn't a right to defend itself and it's people.
This is murder and completely annihilating countries cos it wasn't to.
Those children, God rest them, were in the firing line because a year ago Hamas ran for shelter behind innocent civilians after murdering their Israeli counterparts. Hamas, Hizbollah and the rest have been doing this for decades and throughout those decades when Israel has struck back it's largely refrained from doing so in their civilian hiding-holes. What Hamas did a year ago showed that Israel no longer has anything to gain from imposing those limits on itself - on the contrary, continuing to do so would also continue to increase the risk to its own citizens.
What's more, Yahya Sinwar and his cronies in the Hamas leadership knew it. They KNEW Oct.7 would drag their compatriots into the firing line as human shields and they went ahead anyway. Anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty will know who the true murderers are here.
What's more, Yahya Sinwar and his cronies in the Hamas leadership knew it. They KNEW Oct.7 would drag their compatriots into the firing line as human shields and they went ahead anyway. Anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty will know who the true murderers are here.
I'm surprised that Israel haven't taken Sinwar out yet. They claim to have had the chance but he's surrounded by innocents and hostages.
Like that's stopped Israel before. So I'm sceptical on those claims.
Yeah. All the ones who do the murdering.
Murderers who use human shields you say?
View: https://x.com/RespectIsVital/status/1843372157071425992
Murderers who kill indescrimately you say
View: https://x.com/itvnews/status/1750136909467152434
View: https://x.com/OmarBaddar/status/1815428315915973042
Plus hundreds of other examples.
View: https://x.com/RespectIsVital/status/1843372157071425992
Murderers who kill indescrimately you say
View: https://x.com/itvnews/status/1750136909467152434
View: https://x.com/OmarBaddar/status/1815428315915973042
Plus hundreds of other examples.
I hear they're using UN peacekeepers as human shields now, a new low.
What is the logical conclusion or extension to this argument. Is it that the right thing to do now is eliminate all of the people in Gaza, Syria etc? Because I have no hope to expect any of the people remaining to have anything but hate for Israelis.
The fact is that Israel used escalation dominance as a deterrence policy historically with external support from G7 member states. Palestinians have at the same-time engaged in gorilla attacks/ with external support from hamas, Hezbollah, Iran etc. As is well documented, Hamas itself is a political agency that came in with support from Israel. They are operating within the political agency that is available to them. The UN stands toothless to enforce it's ruling on Gaza/Westbank, because Israel is supported by Veto wielding member states. Both Israel attacks in Gaza and elsewhere and Palastenian insurgency are wrong/criminal/murderous in nature. Israel has no intention to honor the UN agreements, and it's atrocities in west bank cannot be just ignored for anyone who wants to take a neutral opinion or pass judgement on the actions of hamas/palastenians....if Oct 7th justifies all the carnage that has happened since, then there has something that happened before that equally justifies the heinous acts on Oct 7th as well. Anyone who tries to just brush that under the carpet doesn't clearly have the moral compass pointing in the right direction....and I say this with all due respect considering who I'm replying to. But I don't want to lie or hide my opinion or sugarcoat it.
Any country as well as any individual has the right to defend itself from deadly force and any government's first duty is to keep its people safe. Oct.7th showed that the extent of Israel's actions or reactions up till now no longer meets that duty and that a response to Oct.7th short of destroying Hamas is no longer enough. While you're correct in tracing the origins of Hamas, your second paragraph ignores the fact - and it is a fact - that Hamas is no longer the same as it used to be. That was then, this is now and today Hamas is a proscribed terror organisation.
I've said, in this thread as well as previously, that I consider Israel to have been its own worst enemy at times, e.g.in the settlement policy, one which I happen to know drives many moderate Israelis themselves (we have family friends there) to anger and despair. I have no defence to offer for it and I've said that before as well. The fact remains (and since I appreciate your honesty I'll pay you the compliment of replying in kind) that drawing an equivalence between such things and the cold-bloodedly murderous viciousness of Oct.7th, as in the second para.above, is quite simply moral and logical nonsense.
I've said, in this thread as well as previously, that I consider Israel to have been its own worst enemy at times, e.g.in the settlement policy, one which I happen to know drives many moderate Israelis themselves (we have family friends there) to anger and despair. I have no defence to offer for it and I've said that before as well. The fact remains (and since I appreciate your honesty I'll pay you the compliment of replying in kind) that drawing an equivalence between such things and the cold-bloodedly murderous viciousness of Oct.7th, as in the second para.above, is quite simply moral and logical nonsense.
Are you saying that because of October 7th, there is nothing that Israel could ever do that is going too far?
If I thought that I'd hardly be saying now that Israel is sometimes its own worst enemy, so no. But Oct.7th meant that Israel was faced with the choice of doing no more than it had previously done (which had manifestly failed to protect its civilians adequately) or setting out to eliminate Hamas as a threat once and for all, with the high attendant risk - because of Hamas' practice of basing itself among its own civilians - of innocent casualties. Up until now Hamas had relied on that cynical policy to protect itself from the worst consequences of its actions. The big change Oct.7th brought about was that Hamas could no longer be allowed to do that.
OK, for me, killing 11k children is going too far, way too far. A truly moral and advanced country should have found another way.
Against an enemy for whom dead civilians and kids is an up front strategy?
Perhaps the great and wonderful Hamas should have found another way.
Yeah, I wish they did too. I guess they felt forced into it, just like Israel feels like they were forced into it. What we've ended up with is lots and lots of dead people, and it seems like no closer to peace.
But, we are where we are now, and only one side has been killing children over a prolonged period. The latest data I can see on October 7th, was 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, with 71 foreigners. I don't believe any have been killed since, but obviously concerns for safety are still there and valid. https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...ity-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths
There's been 11k children killed since that day, all of them Palestinian, that's a ratio of over 300 to 1. I don't understand how anyone can say that they don't think that some other course of action should have been taken.
Name one which would have worked and met the Israeli government's duty to its own civilians. If you can't, with respect your argument fails.
It's actually not for me to propose that, that's up to Israel. Its impossible to know what would have worked, as all we know for sure is what actually happened. If I suggest anything, it's very easy to just say it wouldn't have worked, so what's the point?
But, I would definitely have started with getting the hostages freed, which had its only successes when there a ceasefire and exchange. So, that worked, so more of that.
Sorry but that's a copout. It very much is for you, or anyone else, who says Israel should have done "something" else to be specific about what that something might be and, if drawing a blank, to admit it.
That said, I would agree - and so would a large proportion of the Israeli population - that freeing the hostages should have been a higher priority. IMO you're right that there seemed to be some promise in going further down that road. Numerous Western governments are seething about Netanyahu's apparent unwillingness to do so and there have been demonstrations all over Israel about it.
I think a fair percentage of Israelis would too.
