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Honeymoon over?

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Write the league off... it's Europa Cup or nothing now.

This is what I don't understand.
3 games ago we were going for the title and now league's been written off?
Yeah we are not good but we knew that much even before and after we beat City. This year everyone are shit, this can be turned around easily in Jan, just need a couple of players and a couple of booting to a select few.
 
I want to ask everybody who watched Klopp's post-match presser, what did you think he meant by playing "easy"? He mentioned it several times, in the context of Watford being good because they were playing "easy" and our players forgetting to do that. What do you think he means?
 
I want to ask everybody who watched Klopp's post-match presser, what did you think he meant by playing "easy"? He mentioned it several times, in the context of Watford being good because they were playing "easy" and our players forgetting to do that. What do you think he means?
Maybe he meant they were doing the basics thing right whereas we tried to over complicate and kept making poor choices. He's said before that footballs a simple game. Time after time watford played the obvious pass but the correct pass and we were trying to play the harder pass and fucking it up.
 
No we fucking weren't. It's statements like this that cause fans of other teams to laugh at us.

Why would they be laughing at us for that? I didn't notice any public comments about it coming from the club - quite the opposite - and surely these sad twats don't scour our forums looking for such comments? The only comments I noticed came from the media, and I think most people found THAT laughable.
 
Why would they be laughing at us for that? I didn't notice any public comments about it coming from the club - quite the opposite - and surely these sad twats don't scour our forums looking for such comments? The only comments I noticed came from the media, and I think most people found THAT laughable.
Yeah the media definitely are at fault here. I was just speaking in general. There are Liverpool fans who go overboard and get overly ambitious. It gets on my tits.
 
Maybe he meant they were doing the basics thing right whereas we tried to over complicate and kept making poor choices. He's said before that footballs a simple game. Time after time watford played the obvious pass but the correct pass and we were trying to play the harder pass and fucking it up.

Good post. I think that's it exactly, and it's worth mentioning that our success in the glory years was built on keeping things simple just like that. If Klopp can get us back to that way of thinking and playing, it'll be all to the good.
 
Good post. I think that's it exactly, and it's worth mentioning that our success in the glory years was built on keeping things simple just like that. If Klopp can get us back to that way of thinking and playing, it'll be all to the good.

I hope he will, he keeps emphasizing this point – not only after this game, but other games as well. For instance when he was talking about Origi a few weeks ago, he said Divock needed to simplify his game – this seems to be working with him now, but not so much with a few others. In particular Lallana, whenever he gets the ball, instead of making one decision, he tries to make about 10. There are other culprits too, Can tends to over-complicate when he becomes too emotional and Sakho definitely did a lot of stupid shit yesterday, although generally under Klopp he has been playing simply and effectively enough, so I hope it's just a blip.
 
In answer to the original question posed. No, no it's not.

We have a manager who is honest and open about results and the job we have to do. If people thought he was coming here and we were winning the league this year, then they started a premature honeymoon. This will take longer than 10 weeks to turn around.

Pragmatism needed. Although mine was severely tested watching both out CB's and CM's out muscled and out fought by Troy Deeney. No disrespect but someone should have nailed him and nailed him hard. Shown some steel and taken a booking. Oh well it's gone now.
 
Here's my 2 cents. It's ridiculous to think that Watford or Newcastle games are in any way a reflection on Klopp's quality as a manager. But Klopp's honeymoon with some of the players should be over. What we are seeing now is that after the initial lift caused by the new ideas and air of optimism surrounding the new manager, the long-standing deficiencies of this team are becoming painfully exposed. That's normal. I mentioned the "Klopp effect" of getting 10-15% more from the players. Well, allow me to clarify – that doesn't work for every player. Someone like Lucas has been managed by 5 different managers at LFC, made a career out of getting the most out of a limited skill-set and is approaching 30 – it's highly unlikely that even the best manager in the world will find an extra 10% there that no other manager was able to find. Give credit to Lucas – he managed to lift his game in the right moment after the new manager arrived and won for himself a key role in Klopp's team on merit, but it was always going to be temporary.

Skrtel has become an automatic selection in recent years, an island of stability in a sea of misfits and failed experiments. But if he's our John Terry or Vincent Kompany, then he has to be judged by the same standards as those two if we truly want to compete with their respective teams for the title – and if you think of it this way, suddenly it becomes clear that Skrtel has acquired his almost "untouchable" status not because he genuinely matches up to the best defenders in the game, but simply because everybody else was worse/injured/less consistent.

Even Coutinho, who I love as a player, has ended up as the leader and biggest star of this team not because he has unquestionably shown the leadership quality, but almost by default after our other leaders have been sold or retired. Now I have to defend Coutinho a little bit – he did in fact show some leadership qualities with his game-winning goals in important games and at 23 he can't be expected to carry the whole team on his shoulders yet, but from the team's perspective that's exactly the problem – once again, like in the case with Skrtel and Lucas, we have a player placed in a position of key importance who is not quite ready for that responsibility. Luckily for Coutinho (and for us) the reason he's not ready is youth rather than lack of world-class talent.

Rounding up the spine of the team is our best striker (Sturridge) and our #1 goalkeeper (Mignolet). Enough has been said about those two that we should not be repeating ad nauseam.

How about the players who arrived in the past couple of seasons, can any of them fill the leadership void? Lovren, of course, has been billed as a new defensive leader when he arrived and I think he has the right character – but he's just not talented enough. I had, and in some way still have, high hopes for Firmino – I saw how good he can be in Germany, but I am starting to think that because his formative years were spent in a happy-go-lucky team like Hoffenheim, where everybody just had fun playing without much concern for results or pressure from fans (Hoffenheim is a tiny town and the first-division team only existed there because of a wealthy benefactor), he is finding it difficult to adjust to working in a high-pressure environment like LFC. It's early days and he might still "get it" and become one of the leaders of this team – the talent is certainly there. But at the moment he is playing like a stereotypical "luxury player" and that's not going to work in Liverpool.

Lallana has the same problem, actually – he is used to being the biggest talent in a small team and now that he's not, he has ways to go to simplify his game and learn to trust his teammates (by passing the ball to them quicker). At least now he has a manager who will demand nothing less. He is more of a finished article than Firmino, however, and that may count against him. Who else? Milner came here thinking he can fill Gerrard's shoes – and so far he's found them way too big. He gives 110%, but somehow looks scared doing it. Benteke can be a useful player under the right circumstances, but never a leader. Clyne is a quality RB and he provides leadership in a way by making us more solid (finally we can defend with a back 4, yay!), but he's not going to win us games in attack. Who else did we spend big money for? Markovic? Definitely a luxury player. Origi, Moreno, Can – very promising, but still young and raw.

In the end it's very simple – we will not compete for major trophies until we have players who are absolute top-class, both in terms of talent and character, occupying at least some of the key positions in the team. In his first interview Klopp said that he believes in the potential of "these players" and I believe him – indeed we have lots of talented, hard-working players many of whom can be seriously improved by Klopp and almost all of whom can potentially be a part of a title-winning or a CL-winning team. It's not a bad platform to build on; I'm sure Klopp took this into account when he took the job. But what games like Watford and Newcastle have shown is that the construction of this team is missing some very key parts, or the parts that ought to be key are currently occupied by placeholders. Replace those with the real deal and this team will absolutely fly even without a major surgery. This time, the transfer committee have to get it right.
 
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My main bugbear is that Klopp can't seem to lift the players. I think it's safe to say that the bunch of players we have are really mentally weak because Rodgers wasn't able to do the same too.
 
Can't lift the players? Southampton and Citeh would tell you different. The problem isn't what Klopp can do, it's the players' mental weakness, as you yourself rightly identify at the end there. However much Klopp can do for them, they have to have the cojones to keep it going themselves as well, and that's what seems to be missing from too many of them.
 
My main bugbear is that Klopp can't seem to lift the players. I think it's safe to say that the bunch of players we have are really mentally weak because Rodgers wasn't able to do the same too.
They're absolute shithouses.
 
Can't lift the players? Southampton and Citeh would tell you different. The problem isn't what Klopp can do, it's the players' mental weakness, as you yourself rightly identify at the end there. However much Klopp can do for them, they have to have the cojones to keep it going themselves as well, and that's what seems to be missing from too many of them.

As I said in my shithouses thread, it's much easier to raise your game when you're the underdogs, or when you are facing a formidable opponent. It's much harder to raise your game when you're expected to beat a team, and it's at this point where we crumble, the clubs mental paper mache.
 
They're absolute shithouses.

Again, I'm not convinced it's just about shithouse players. Yeah, we have a few, but I think the fact that we can beat City and Chelsea but get battered by Newcastle and Watford, is maybe partly mentality, but more importantly it's simple quality.

Top quality players are consistent. Most of our players aren't top quality, so they can play really well in isolated games, but cannot maintain that consistency because they're not very good. I think the teams we play is irrelevant a lot of the time, their natural level is average so that's what you see most often.
 
Consistency is what makes players top class or not. You'll often see a cup game involving a championship club with one or two players who look like they should be playing in the premiership or for a cl club, but they can't do that every week.

Ferguson's side were so successful because he ensured that even his average players were still consistent week in week out. He only allowed inconsistency from the very best talents & made sure that there were never more than one or two of them in the side.

Players I would say have proven consistency for us (excluding consistently bad!) Skrtel, Henderson, Milner.

Fuck, that's it. Unless I'm missing someone obvious? I can't think of any other player who has been consistent for us.

Actually, I'm being unfair to sturridge, when he's fit he's staggeringly consistent. Just doesn't happen very often.
 
Consistency is what makes players top class or not. You'll often see a cup game involving a championship club with one or two players who look like they should be playing in the premiership or for a cl club, but they can't do that every week.

Ferguson's side were so successful because he ensured that even his average players were still consistent week in week out. He only allowed inconsistency from the very best talents & made sure that there were never more than one or two of them in the side.

Players I would say have proven consistency for us (excluding consistently bad!) Skrtel, Henderson, Milner.

Fuck, that's it. Unless I'm missing someone obvious? I can't think of any other player who has been consistent for us.

Actually, I'm being unfair to sturridge, when he's fit he's staggeringly consistent. Just doesn't happen very often.

I think you're possibly doing a disservice to certain players. If you're consistent, you're a good player, not average, if you've made it as far as Liverpool (or United). How many genuinely average players have had long careers at either club?

The obvious ones are Lucas, and arguably Fletcher, but the majority of players who spent a decent amount of time as first team players at clubs like United or Liverpool are really good players.

Players like Finnan and Carragher. Not Roberto Carlos or an eye-catching Baresi or Maldini type player, perhaps. But still really, really good footballers.
 
Perhaps. I'm in a bad mood (see the post about fucking Asda elsewhere), however I'm thinking of consistency in terms of players getting 6/7 out of 10 or above every match.

Coutinho, Lallana, Can, Firmino, all have had shite games. Same with Ibe, Origi, Moreno, Clyne, Toure, Lovren.

I probably am being too harsh though tbf.

I struggle to look at this side with any optimism though. We need a boatload of money being splashed on some serious quality players.
 
You don't need to have all your players consistent, you do need your keeper and defenders. Then of the others if half of them consistently give a 7, the others can be the kind that either produce a 10 or a 2 and you'll be fine.
 
You don't need to have all your players consistent, you do need your keeper and defenders. Then of the others if half of them consistently give a 7, the others can be the kind that either produce a 10 or a 2 and you'll be fine.
Agree completely.

Your keeper & defenders is five players. So you have six left.

Half of those being three, so you need eight players getting 7/10 ratings & the remaining three being capable of delivering match winning performances or not depending on the weather, if their wife sucked their balls the night before etc.

Spot on. I'd say at the moment we can rely on maybe four/five players getting a 7/10 & even then not in every match!
 
You don't need to have all your players consistent, you do need your keeper and defenders. Then of the others if half of them consistently give a 7, the others can be the kind that either produce a 10 or a 2 and you'll be fine.

That's it really. That Shankly quote about seven or eight players to carry the piano, and three who can actually play it. Or was that Paisley? Anyway, it's spot on.

Unfortunately with the likes of Lovren, Lucas, Firmino and Mignolet, it more closely resembles Laurel & Hardy trying to move that piano and dropping it down several flights of stairs.

Look at the starting XI in our infamous 5-0 victory over Forest: that team had Spackman in it. But players like him, Whelan, Wark, Finnan, Henchoz were very good and very consistent, and would never let the team down. We simply have too many average, inconsistent footballers who will NEVER be good enough to play for Liverpool
 
Liverpool sadly.


I find it very disheartening to see a team like Spurs look well organized and well placed to kick on whilst we're *still* fucking scrambling about trying to get our shit together despite spending yet another fortune on another set of players.

Look at the league this season, everyone is dreadful, Leceister are top of the league and yet we've still managed somehow to keep ourselves down in 9th or some shit.

This was nearly all down to average to bad to terrible purchases whoever misspent that money is largely responsible. And hasnt paid the price. we can´t afford talent so we must go for tenacity.
 
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