Difference is what players like fowler, raul, suarez and even owen have that torres doesn't is a touch of genius. When those guys are being either lazy, injured, playing shit, or just old and past it... they can still get the job done by relying on their unbeliavable cleverness. Torres doesn't have that to fall back on, because in comparison he is well a little bit dim as a footballer.
Fernando.
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I think that's a bit harsh on Torres Dantes -
Doc - I remember him playing alone, with Kun and off Kun (or LW). He had ample opportunities (unless my memory really is going to shit) to lead the line and never got it done on a consistent basis (he did score some beauties though). I think the key part of your second paragraph is "when he put the effort in" ... I don't think he did that always - not for us or Chavs (that's for sure)
Doc - I remember him playing alone, with Kun and off Kun (or LW). He had ample opportunities (unless my memory really is going to shit) to lead the line and never got it done on a consistent basis (he did score some beauties though). I think the key part of your second paragraph is "when he put the effort in" ... I don't think he did that always - not for us or Chavs (that's for sure)
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47645.msg1436789#msg1436789 date=1322831214]
Difference is what players like fowler, raul, suarez and even owen have that Torres doesn't is a touch of genius. When those guys are being either lazy, injured, playing shit, or just old and past it... they can still get the job done by relying on their unbeliavable cleverness. Torres doesn't have that to fall back on, because in comparison he is well a little bit dim as a footballer.
[/quote]
Torres doesn't have a touch of genius? Are you kidding? Torres often scored when he was playing rubbish, like last season for us. And as for a touch of genius [flash=400,400]http://www.youtube.com/v/TTh8N7EQjQc[/flash] what would you call that? I can provide MANY more.
Difference is what players like fowler, raul, suarez and even owen have that Torres doesn't is a touch of genius. When those guys are being either lazy, injured, playing shit, or just old and past it... they can still get the job done by relying on their unbeliavable cleverness. Torres doesn't have that to fall back on, because in comparison he is well a little bit dim as a footballer.
[/quote]
Torres doesn't have a touch of genius? Are you kidding? Torres often scored when he was playing rubbish, like last season for us. And as for a touch of genius [flash=400,400]http://www.youtube.com/v/TTh8N7EQjQc[/flash] what would you call that? I can provide MANY more.
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47645.msg1436792#msg1436792 date=1322831606]
I think that's a bit harsh on Torres Dantes -
Doc - I remember him playing alone, with Kun and off Kun (or LW). He had ample opportunities (unless my memory really is going to shit) to lead the line and never got it done on a consistent basis (he did score some beauties though). I think the key part of your second paragraph is "when he put the effort in" ... I don't think he did that always - not for us or Chavs (that's for sure)
[/quote]
You're hugely underating him, he scored 91 in 249 games at AM, better than a goal every 3 games, which is great when you consider he started when he was 17, and didn't even play as a main striker all the time.
I think that's a bit harsh on Torres Dantes -
Doc - I remember him playing alone, with Kun and off Kun (or LW). He had ample opportunities (unless my memory really is going to shit) to lead the line and never got it done on a consistent basis (he did score some beauties though). I think the key part of your second paragraph is "when he put the effort in" ... I don't think he did that always - not for us or Chavs (that's for sure)
[/quote]
You're hugely underating him, he scored 91 in 249 games at AM, better than a goal every 3 games, which is great when you consider he started when he was 17, and didn't even play as a main striker all the time.
[quote author=athensruairi link=topic=47645.msg1436799#msg1436799 date=1322832399]
That goal against Blackburn is one of my favourite Torres goals.
Did it not come as a bit of shock at the time that Benitez was spending so much on what people thought was a unproven goal scorer?
[/quote]
Everyone wanted Eto'o from what I remember, Torres was last a second choice, people were happy, but not convinced. Particular people were really not happy, I think Rosco was one?
That goal against Blackburn is one of my favourite Torres goals.
Did it not come as a bit of shock at the time that Benitez was spending so much on what people thought was a unproven goal scorer?
[/quote]
Everyone wanted Eto'o from what I remember, Torres was last a second choice, people were happy, but not convinced. Particular people were really not happy, I think Rosco was one?
[quote author=Mystic link=topic=47645.msg1436794#msg1436794 date=1322831885]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47645.msg1436792#msg1436792 date=1322831606]
I think that's a bit harsh on Torres Dantes -
Doc - I remember him playing alone, with Kun and off Kun (or LW). He had ample opportunities (unless my memory really is going to shit) to lead the line and never got it done on a consistent basis (he did score some beauties though). I think the key part of your second paragraph is "when he put the effort in" ... I don't think he did that always - not for us or Chavs (that's for sure)
[/quote]
You're hugely underating him, he scored 91 in 249 games at AM, better than a goal every 3 games, which is great when you consider he started when he was 17, and didn't even play as a main striker all the time.
[/quote]
He was not an AM most of his career at Madrid - I guess the record for Spain was due to 'formation' issues? I raised the issue when we signed him originally - he was never a pure finisher and hence, his first two seasons were even more amazing in my eyes.
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47645.msg1436792#msg1436792 date=1322831606]
I think that's a bit harsh on Torres Dantes -
Doc - I remember him playing alone, with Kun and off Kun (or LW). He had ample opportunities (unless my memory really is going to shit) to lead the line and never got it done on a consistent basis (he did score some beauties though). I think the key part of your second paragraph is "when he put the effort in" ... I don't think he did that always - not for us or Chavs (that's for sure)
[/quote]
You're hugely underating him, he scored 91 in 249 games at AM, better than a goal every 3 games, which is great when you consider he started when he was 17, and didn't even play as a main striker all the time.
[/quote]
He was not an AM most of his career at Madrid - I guess the record for Spain was due to 'formation' issues? I raised the issue when we signed him originally - he was never a pure finisher and hence, his first two seasons were even more amazing in my eyes.
I call that having a brilliant control and finishing. Maybe I should have used jari litmanen as an example instead. When your legs are gone, it's having the cleverness to read situations and pass the ball to someone with younger legs, get him to do the donkey work you can no longer do. Don't you wonder why torres doesn't play well with other strikers?
Torres doesn't have the same sharpness acceleration, and pace to get away from players. I doubt he has the flexibility in his legs to finish from those kinds of angles with that much powder anymore either. But he is too dim to realise he needs other players to hold the ball for him, to give him the chance to hobble over to the position where he would otherwise have sprinted too leaving the defender in his wake. Or he needs to know what the defender is thinking and outsmart him. That's the touch of genius he lacks.
Torres doesn't have the same sharpness acceleration, and pace to get away from players. I doubt he has the flexibility in his legs to finish from those kinds of angles with that much powder anymore either. But he is too dim to realise he needs other players to hold the ball for him, to give him the chance to hobble over to the position where he would otherwise have sprinted too leaving the defender in his wake. Or he needs to know what the defender is thinking and outsmart him. That's the touch of genius he lacks.
[quote author=Mystic link=topic=47645.msg1436801#msg1436801 date=1322832542]
[quote author=athensruairi link=topic=47645.msg1436799#msg1436799 date=1322832399]
That goal against Blackburn is one of my favourite Torres goals.
Did it not come as a bit of shock at the time that Benitez was spending so much on what people thought was a unproven goal scorer?
[/quote]
Everyone wanted Eto'o from what I remember, Torres was last a second choice, people were happy, but not convinced. Particular people were really not happy, I think Rosco was one?
[/quote]
I certainly was. I rated him but didn't think he really wanted to leave Atletico, and was afraid we might have another Reyes on our hands.
[quote author=athensruairi link=topic=47645.msg1436799#msg1436799 date=1322832399]
That goal against Blackburn is one of my favourite Torres goals.
Did it not come as a bit of shock at the time that Benitez was spending so much on what people thought was a unproven goal scorer?
[/quote]
Everyone wanted Eto'o from what I remember, Torres was last a second choice, people were happy, but not convinced. Particular people were really not happy, I think Rosco was one?
[/quote]
I certainly was. I rated him but didn't think he really wanted to leave Atletico, and was afraid we might have another Reyes on our hands.
I agree with Dantes, Torres is not an intelligent player.
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47645.msg1436810#msg1436810 date=1322833468]
I agree with Dantes, Torres is not an intelligent player.
[/quote]
Me too. His use of the ball when he's not scoring is pretty poor. And his greed (I know, I know, it's part of what makes him such a good striker) can make him very wasteful. Of course, when he is scoring, none of that really matters, but when he isn't, he becomes very frustrating to watch.
I agree with Dantes, Torres is not an intelligent player.
[/quote]
Me too. His use of the ball when he's not scoring is pretty poor. And his greed (I know, I know, it's part of what makes him such a good striker) can make him very wasteful. Of course, when he is scoring, none of that really matters, but when he isn't, he becomes very frustrating to watch.
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47645.msg1436810#msg1436810 date=1322833468]
I agree with Dantes, Torres is not an intelligent player.
[/quote]
Torres is an extremely intelligent footballer. he runs are excellent and when he was here he rarely got caught offside. rafa wouldn't trust a headless chicken up front on his own hence the reason baros and cisse more often then not feature in a wide position.
I agree with Dantes, Torres is not an intelligent player.
[/quote]
Torres is an extremely intelligent footballer. he runs are excellent and when he was here he rarely got caught offside. rafa wouldn't trust a headless chicken up front on his own hence the reason baros and cisse more often then not feature in a wide position.
I always feel better when you disagree with me Neil.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47645.msg1436852#msg1436852 date=1322837382]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47645.msg1436810#msg1436810 date=1322833468]
I agree with Dantes, Torres is not an intelligent player.
[/quote]
Torres is an extremely intelligent footballer. he runs are excellent and when he was here he rarely got caught offside. rafa wouldn't trust a headless chicken up front on his own hence the reason baros and cisse more often then not feature in a wide position.
[/quote]
No. His runs were excellent because as a footballer he focuses on himself and what he is doing on the pitch. Whilst he has the physical ability to go it alone then that's fair enough and he performed brilliantly. But once that ability goes, he needs to see football from a new viewpoint. To start thinking about the other 21 players on the pitch, where they are, where they might run, how he should react to that and play accordingly. Litmanen sees that. Torres sees only himself. And when he does see himself and his abilities fading that is why he mopes around and looks depressed.
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47645.msg1436810#msg1436810 date=1322833468]
I agree with Dantes, Torres is not an intelligent player.
[/quote]
Torres is an extremely intelligent footballer. he runs are excellent and when he was here he rarely got caught offside. rafa wouldn't trust a headless chicken up front on his own hence the reason baros and cisse more often then not feature in a wide position.
[/quote]
No. His runs were excellent because as a footballer he focuses on himself and what he is doing on the pitch. Whilst he has the physical ability to go it alone then that's fair enough and he performed brilliantly. But once that ability goes, he needs to see football from a new viewpoint. To start thinking about the other 21 players on the pitch, where they are, where they might run, how he should react to that and play accordingly. Litmanen sees that. Torres sees only himself. And when he does see himself and his abilities fading that is why he mopes around and looks depressed.
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47645.msg1436853#msg1436853 date=1322837538]
I always feel better when you disagree with me Neil.
[/quote]
well, there seems to be a lot of revisionism with regards to torres but when he was good for us he was about as good as it gets and having seen a lot of videos of rush the two strikers seem very similar to me with regards to timed runs and positions they took up on the pitch.
if people want to label torres 'thick' that's their look out but he isn't.
is torres is thick at chelsea now? who knows, I only watch liverpool so I have no idea how he is doing short of knowing he isn't scoring.
I always feel better when you disagree with me Neil.
[/quote]
well, there seems to be a lot of revisionism with regards to torres but when he was good for us he was about as good as it gets and having seen a lot of videos of rush the two strikers seem very similar to me with regards to timed runs and positions they took up on the pitch.
if people want to label torres 'thick' that's their look out but he isn't.
is torres is thick at chelsea now? who knows, I only watch liverpool so I have no idea how he is doing short of knowing he isn't scoring.
Torres is soliptastic Neil, face it.
You know what I mean. He's dicking around saying ohh woe is me, woe is Torres. I keep getting kicked and fouled, andnow I'm injured and slow because of all the fouls, oh woe is Torres. Ugh. If he woke the fuck up and looked around, he might notice daniel sturridge is pretty fucking fast. Then he can start to think, ok if I release the ball to sturridge at this angle and at this time, I'm pretty sure that defender is going to be dragged a couple of yards to his right. So let me do that, and starts hobbling into those couple of yards. Before anyone notices I'm in a little bit of space...bang the balls in the net. But no. Woe is Torres and all the defenders who keep kicking his pathetic arse.
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47645.msg1436861#msg1436861 date=1322838058]
Torres is soliptastic Neil, face it.
[/quote]
I'm not asked about torres and tend not to watch him now but I did watch the manu chelsea game for a bit and I thought his movement was excellent and then he fucked up his excellent performance by missing an open goal. meh. I can't say I'm bothered that torres has well and truly gone off the boil now but when he was HERE and when he was in the zone (the season we came 2nd) I think torres is pound the pound the best striker I have seen in red (though I haven seen rush). intelligence, work rate, positioning, strength, pace, power, shots from distance, heading and 5 yard tap ins, the guy had it all so let's not rewrite history becuase he's gone or has turned to shit.
Torres is soliptastic Neil, face it.
[/quote]
I'm not asked about torres and tend not to watch him now but I did watch the manu chelsea game for a bit and I thought his movement was excellent and then he fucked up his excellent performance by missing an open goal. meh. I can't say I'm bothered that torres has well and truly gone off the boil now but when he was HERE and when he was in the zone (the season we came 2nd) I think torres is pound the pound the best striker I have seen in red (though I haven seen rush). intelligence, work rate, positioning, strength, pace, power, shots from distance, heading and 5 yard tap ins, the guy had it all so let's not rewrite history becuase he's gone or has turned to shit.
He's a great player but he's not a very smart or adaptable player Neil, there's a difference. Gascoigne was a great player and his movement was excellent when he was mobile.
I still think he's a cunt for leaving the way he did, but I agree with Neil. There seems to be a bit of history rewriting going on ok.
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47645.msg1436865#msg1436865 date=1322838521]
He's a great player but he's not a very smart or adaptable player Neil, there's a difference. Gascoigne was a great player and his movement was excellent when he was mobile.
[/quote]
He's not adaptable, I said as much earlier in the thread, however to say he's not very smart is stupid. Maybe he's only intelligent at what he does, but he's intelligent at in none the less. He knows how to finish and what way to finish, he knows where to run, he knows when to run and more often than not he was in the right position, these are all things are all things which require intelligence. Djibrill Cisse is a perfect example of what happens if you don't have this intelligence, he had good natural ability and could finish, however he always chose the wrong shot (ie blasted it instead of placing it) he was always caught offside, he was never in the right position when the ball came in, he always ran into players and chose the wrong option when one on one, this is because he was a dumb footballer, not because Torres possessed a physical ability Cisse didn't.
Torres isn't a reader of the game like Alonso, but what strikers are? He's an intelligent footballer though, even if it's only in the way he knows how to play.
He's a great player but he's not a very smart or adaptable player Neil, there's a difference. Gascoigne was a great player and his movement was excellent when he was mobile.
[/quote]
He's not adaptable, I said as much earlier in the thread, however to say he's not very smart is stupid. Maybe he's only intelligent at what he does, but he's intelligent at in none the less. He knows how to finish and what way to finish, he knows where to run, he knows when to run and more often than not he was in the right position, these are all things are all things which require intelligence. Djibrill Cisse is a perfect example of what happens if you don't have this intelligence, he had good natural ability and could finish, however he always chose the wrong shot (ie blasted it instead of placing it) he was always caught offside, he was never in the right position when the ball came in, he always ran into players and chose the wrong option when one on one, this is because he was a dumb footballer, not because Torres possessed a physical ability Cisse didn't.
Torres isn't a reader of the game like Alonso, but what strikers are? He's an intelligent footballer though, even if it's only in the way he knows how to play.
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47645.msg1436866#msg1436866 date=1322838691]
I still think he's a cunt for leaving the way he did, but I agree with Neil. There seems to be a bit of history rewriting going on ok.
[/quote]
Exactly and it's infuriating. Torres was the best striker in the world when he was with us, and part of that is still in there. Just because he fucked us over doesn't mean we should pretend that wasn't so.
I still think he's a cunt for leaving the way he did, but I agree with Neil. There seems to be a bit of history rewriting going on ok.
[/quote]
Exactly and it's infuriating. Torres was the best striker in the world when he was with us, and part of that is still in there. Just because he fucked us over doesn't mean we should pretend that wasn't so.
I'm not saying Torres wasn't brilliant, he was utterly fantastic, but he's not a very intelligent or adaptable player.
I have to agree with Spider as well. I have seen him playing on the wing for Atletico Madrid and he more than capable of playing as a play maker. Whilst he was at Liverpool, I think Rafa encouraged him to be selfish (recognising his potential as a goalscorer) and Torres is probably still using that persona, but I think a good manager could get him playing well again with a some reprogramming.
You're all fucking wrong!
*sprays thread with machine gun fire*
*sprays thread with machine gun fire*
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