FA Cup Final ... Ratings

[i_rushie]

Come on, the reason you knew "I'd be on Skrtel's case" was because it wasn't very convincing defending at all. First of all he backed off instead of actually close him down.

He then failed to get into the right position to actually block the shot now he had given him the chance to even shoot. He got a whole of the size of garage between his legs.

It was sloppy defending.

Nothing more to it. He's had a great Season that just wasn't his proudest moment, hope you'll get over it.

Yeah, I bet when Mickey Owen slotted the ball into the same inside corner of the post at Wembley in the 2001 FA Cup Final, you thought "oh what unconvincing defending by Tony Adams, didn't get close to Owen at all."

"I knew you'd be on Skrtel's case", as did the rest of this forum, because you're always trying to lay the boot in. For some reason, your praise for Agger has to be accompanied by comparison to and incessant whinging about Skrtel. And you're wrong, he did close Drogba down, in fact he was tracking Drogba from the moment the ball left the feet of Lampard. And he didn't fail to get in the right position, he got ahead and across of Drogba to block the near post shot he (and Reina) was anticipating. Could he have done better? Perhaps. As with every goal, you could make that demand of every defender and goalkeeper. But was it "sloppy"? Hell no.

It was simply a brilliantly finished goal, just like Mickey Owen's in 2001, and trying to argue it was "sloppy" only shows up your bias.

 

[Delinquent]

Kenny 8 - Surprised by Portly who's clearly had enough of this season. His starting side was good and there's always going to be someone who would have picked another player but this was fine. Didn't wait for 60.0000 minutes to bring a sub on like certain other managers and made exactly the right choice when he did it. Only criticism was not bringing Kuyt on earlier. Thought the struggle was with Spearing and Henderson unable to get the ball forwards. He needed Kuyt and his work rate to help connect Stevie and the rest of the forward line. Made up for the change his bought about in Carroll which for me stems from the Newcastle game. Needs to ensure that Carroll doesn't go backwards over the off season.

I don't think Portly has said anything controversial. Kenny started with a team with only three players in it who were likely to a) get into the box, and b) score a goal. Consequently we had very few players getting into the box and trying to score a goal. He went with players in Henderson and Downing who have proved all season that they're not up to the task. It was a team filled with grafters, whose primary aim was to stifle the opposition. That failed, and unsurprisingly, we had very little to offer going forward. That is until we brought on another player to play in the final third.

It was a negative team selection, and the kind of team that has characterized Kenny's season. No cutting edge at all. There were signs in the latter years of his last stint in management that he'd become quite negative in his approach, and I think it's been perpetuated here. It's a shame, because he put together the team that made me fall in love with football. I just wish he'd remember what made that team so successful.

 

[Loch Ness Monster]

Agree with Portly, the side sent out to start the game didn't have the ability to retain possession well enough to allow support for Suarez. He was always going to end up isolated. With average CMs that we had, in fact the whole midfield, there was no way that plan would have worked. Carroll should have started, especially due to the way he had looked in matches in the last 2 months. And although I love Skrtel and he has wiped the floor with Agger this season, he was found out for Drogbas goal. He was nowhere close enough to him before pass to him was played, allowing him to take the touch and finish. Around the edge of the box you need to be touch tight to the striker and make him produce something skilfull to create the space to get a shot off, not just a simple touch into his stride.

 

[Mystic]

Agree with Portly, the side sent out to start the game didn't have the ability to retain possession well enough to allow support for Suarez. He was always going to end up isolated. With average CMs that we had, in fact the whole midfield, there was no way that plan would have worked. Carroll should have started, especially due to the way he had looked in matches in the last 2 months. And although I love Skrtel and he has wiped the floor with Agger this season, he was found out for Drogbas goal. He was nowhere close enough to him before pass to him was played, allowing him to take the touch and finish. Around the edge of the box you need to be touch tight to the striker and make him produce something skilfull to create the space to get a shot off, not just a simple touch into his stride.

Skrtel shouldn't have got close to Drogba as the ball came into him, do you not remember that goal he scored against us when Agger pressed to tightly to him, the fact is Drogba loves it when defenders get close to him as he's a master of turning/bullying them. However as Drogba turned Skrtel then should have got closer to him to stop him getting the shot off.

 

[Ryan]

Good management isn't the team you pick, the side you put out, and barely even scratches the surface with the subs you make. It's how you adapt to what's happening in front of you.

I'm not saying Dalglish did a good, bad or indifferent job at this, just pointing out that you can't rate a manager on the team he selects. It's utterly fucking pointless.

 

[mark1975]

Good management isn't the team you pick, the side you put out, and barely even scratches the surface with the subs you make. It's how you adapt to what's happening in front of you.

I'm not saying Dalglish did a good, bad or indifferent job at this, just pointing out that you can't rate a manager on the team he selects. It's utterly fucking pointless.

That's not really true. Rafa had us scratching our heads enough times, for all his ability to be tactically astute, his line ups often were his undoing. I appreciate that the mentality and approach are equally important though.

 

[Pesam]

Not only was it the wrong team selection (Carroll had to start) but it was obviously not working at 1-0 and yet Kenny didn't change it. I said to my Brother "I bet he won't change things until we're 2-0 down" and sadly I was proved correct. Why did we have to wait until we were 2-0 down when it was patently obvious to EVERYONE that our line-up was ineffective and another Chelsea goal was inevitable?

I love Kenny and always will but I honestly don't see how we can move forward with him as manager.

 

[Fabio]

Not only was it the wrong team selection (Carroll had to start) but it was obviously not working at 1-0 and yet Kenny didn't change it. I said to my Brother "I bet he won't change things until we're 2-0 down" and sadly I was proved correct. Why did we have to wait until we were 2-0 down when it was patently obvious to EVERYONE that our line-up was ineffective and another Chelsea goal was inevitable?

I love Kenny and always will but I honestly don't see how we can move forward with him as manager.

I agree with this but i'm willing to give kenny time to sort his shit. Do i have faith he will? No, not at all. But if he gets another season and fucks it up then thats it. Kenny won't be a figure like rafa who was argued over for years and years.

Least he shouldn't be

 

[mark1975]

Not only was it the wrong team selection (Carroll had to start) but it was obviously not working at 1-0 and yet Kenny didn't change it. I said to my Brother "I bet he won't change things until we're 2-0 down" and sadly I was proved correct. Why did we have to wait until we were 2-0 down when it was patently obvious to EVERYONE that our line-up was ineffective and another Chelsea goal was inevitable?

I love Kenny and always will but I honestly don't see how we can move forward with him as manager.

Yeah I think alot of people said the same thing, at half time I was willing him to make a change, the midfield was non-existent and they were running through us at will, while at the same time we weren't keeping hold of the ball and we were offering Suarez zero support. At that point I was hoping for Kuyt and/or Maxi though for a couple of experienced heads who would keep the ball better. Then at 2-0 I was hoping for a Mourinho-esque three subs just to go shit or bust. Too many times this season we've done what our other recent managers have done and waited until it was too late to make the necessary changes to 'try' to save a game.

 

[Jack D Rips]

Good management isn't the team you pick, the side you put out, and barely even scratches the surface with the subs you make. It's how you adapt to what's happening in front of you.

I'm not saying Dalglish did a good, bad or indifferent job at this, just pointing out that you can't rate a manager on the team he selects. It's utterly fucking pointless.

I understand what you are trying to say, but you simple cannot disregard team selection as utterly pointless.

 

[Ryan]

I understand what you are trying to say, but you simple cannot disregard team selection as utterly pointless.

I meant that judging a manager on the team he selects alone was pointless.

 

[Portly]

I tuned into ITV to watch the Cup Final, but at the start the commentator made a sneering remark that Suarez is "not everybody's cup of tea" (would a commentator be so bold as to say the same thing about, say, Rooney, John Terry or Ryan Giggs?) so I turned over to ESPN. This turned out to be the right decision as the ESPN coverage was very good. After about 10 minutes Chris Waddle made the point that Gerrard wasn't actually playing forward, behind Suarez, but dropping back to join Spearing and Henderson in central midfield. This, he pointed out, meant that Liverpool weren't getting enough players into the Chelsea penalty area and Suarez was isolated and ineffective. This was painfully obvious but Kenny didn't do anything to put the problem right for a whole hour.

I don't claim to be a football expert, but the very simple remedy was always going to be to take off Spearing, who had become surplus to requirements, and put Carroll on, to create some space and movement for Suarez and the other forwards.

Managers tend to get into a very stubborn frame of mind which makes them refuse to change the plan they started with, even when it is patently not working, as they seem to see it as a sign of weakness. Houllier suffered from this, Benitez even more so, and I fear it applies to Kenny as well.

 

[Wizardry]

I tuned into ITV to watch the Cup Final, but at the start the commentator made a sneering remark that Suarez is "not everybody's cup of tea" (would a commentator be so bold as to say the same thing about, say, Rooney, John Terry or Ryan Giggs?) so I turned over to ESPN. This turned out to be the right decision as the ESPN coverage was very good. After about 10 minutes Chris Waddle made the point that Gerrard wasn't actually playing forward, behind Suarez, but dropping back to join Spearing and Henderson in central midfield. This, he pointed out, meant that Liverpool weren't getting enough players into the Chelsea penalty area and Suarez was isolated and ineffective. This was painfully obvious but Kenny didn't do anything to put the problem right for a whole hour.

I don't claim to be a football expert, but the very simple remedy was always going to be to take off Spearing, who had become surplus to requirements, and put Carroll on, to create some space and movement for Suarez and the other forwards.

Managers tend to get into a very stubborn frame of mind which makes them refuse to change the plan they started with, even when it is patently not working, as they seem to see it as a sign of weakness. Houllier suffered from this, Benitez even more so, and I fear it applies to Kenny as well.

I just want to make a couple of points from my own perspective here Portly; feel free to disagree or not.

The point on Gerrard is exactly right and I made the same point when I was watching it after a few minutes. I think I've said the same in my other posts. I wanted to see Gerrard in behind Suarez so was happy from that perspective with the team selection. I couldn't get over the fact that Spearing was having such an off day and that Henderson was soooo reluctant to move the ball forward. If that was my feeling then I can only imagine what Kenny must have thought given he sees the two of them on the paddock day in and day out. Whenever you, I or anyone comes up with a plan in whatever we do we have our reasons for it. If you have thought it out and have some confidence in it then, when it isn't working you still believe it can work. You see why it's not working but the "fix" is simple enough. The more confident you are in the knowledge of all the factors the more confident you are in the plan working. Kenny (and Rafa and Houllier) would have to be very confident in the plan they lay out because they see the players on the pitch every day. They know what they're capable of and that's what they expect. The more confident I am in a plan the more likely I am to persevere with it - likewise I suspect for most people.

I know it's pedantic but he didn't wait an hour to change it. Let's say that he decided it wasn't going to be sorted after the goal then he waited 40 minutes to make a change. You could say that he waited till 2-0 down but if it had been Rafa et al then you can bet your life savings it would have been 62 minutes before Andy got his track pants off.

I thought he should have bought Kuyt on earlier to use his work rate to bring the play together. I also would probably have had Maxi in there simply because Luis understands him and plays well with him. However, I could see the reasoning for having Downing and Bellamy in there and I've seen plenty of times where Maxi has started and been perfectly invisible.

I'm going to go round and round here but my main point was that most people on here were pretty happy with the starting line up; I don't think Carroll would have been anything like the threat he was had he started and we were ruined by two players at the back not getting it together on the day and therefore forcing Gerrard away from where he could have caused such damage.

 

[Fabio]

People were happy with the line up because we expected it to be like norwich, Gerrard off suarez. It wasn't so immediately the dissatisfaction came (justifiably).

Carroll may not have done much if he started, but the point is playing someone with suarez opens space for suarez to cause bother. Suarez isolated doesn't cause any problems.

The lineup wasn't at fault, it was the presumption of the 4-5-1 with gerrard off suarez, rather than what was.

 

[the_khl]

Yeah, I bet when Mickey Owen slotted the ball into the same inside corner of the post at Wembley in the 2001 FA Cup Final, you thought "oh what unconvincing defending by Tony Adams, didn't get close to Owen at all."

"I knew you'd be on Skrtel's case", as did the rest of this forum, because you're always trying to lay the boot in. For some reason, your praise for Agger has to be accompanied by comparison to and incessant whinging about Skrtel. And you're wrong, he did close Drogba down, in fact he was tracking Drogba from the moment the ball left the feet of Lampard. And he didn't fail to get in the right position, he got ahead and across of Drogba to block the near post shot he (and Reina) was anticipating. Could he have done better? Perhaps. As with every goal, you could make that demand of every defender and goalkeeper. But was it "sloppy"? Hell no.

It was simply a brilliantly finished goal, just like Mickey Owen's in 2001, and trying to argue it was "sloppy" only shows up your bias.

It's a bit silly this. I have praised Skrtel almost all Season and posters on here knows that as he has been doing very well indeed.

He has had a few bad spells of late and his failure to close Drogba down or at least block the shot wasn't his best moment either. It was pretty sloppy and unlike Skrtel for most parts of this Season and has got absolutely nothing to do with Agger either. Or anyone else.

You can believe whatever you like mate.

 

[mark1975]

I love the point about him targeting Skrtel too, that someone made earlier in the week, another way of looking at is that he occupied Skrtel, to give others more room to exploit and attack, which is ultimately what happened, he was constantly backing into Skrtel forcing him to stay tight, the first goal came down the left side and I don't remember anyone trying to get back or across to help out. Agger had a great game, particularly going forward, but both him and Skrtel have had good and bad games against Drogba, shit happens. Agger's poor game at Stamford Bridge in the CL constantly gets excused by his goal and performance in the second leg. Drogba is a TOP striker and has been one of the best in Europe over the last decade so the rule of probability (and given how many times we've played Chelsea in recent years), will suggest he will give everyone a tough time at some point. He's done it to Carragher, Agger and now Skrtel. Shit happens.

As for Skrtel's recent form, we've chopped and changed of late and struggled at the back because of it, both he and Agger have benefited from each other and not looked quite as comfortable when the other hasn't been there.

 

[Frogfish]

Suarez isolated doesn't cause any problems.

What ? You mean like at Norwich - with 3 solo goals ? 😉

 

[keniget]

What ? You mean like at Norwich - with 3 solo goals ? 😉

Suarez against a team that can defend then!

 

[Modo]

Suarez against a team that can defend then!

Three defensive mistakes as well.

 

[Fabio]

What ? You mean like at Norwich - with 3 solo goals ? 😉

First goal was made by gerrard and they lost the ball foolishly

in fact, every goal came from either a quick counter attack or defensive errors.

Were chelsea going to let us do that? Were they shite. Suarez needs space to exploit and when you've got 2 CBs continually watching you you'll struggle.

 

[Frogfish]

As I said in the initial analysis and as Wiz agrees. The team could and should have worked had Gerrard not had to fro so deep to cover for Spearing (who made some horrendous errors and was clearly out-of-sorts) and Henderson (who rarely plays a pass forward - which is a shame because he is usually accurate and can have an eye for a pass). It's difficult to make allowances for or compensate for such a melt-down in the heart of your team.

As for the substitutions - Mourinho aside - when is the last time you've seen a manager make an unforced substitution in the first half of a cup final ? Not going to happen.

 

[Fabio]

Also, suarez not only had gerrard, but he had a very attack minded shelvey helping too.

Against chelsea Suarez had gerrard who couldn't go forward because he had to get the ball from deep due to the inability of spearing and henderson to pass forwards with any conviction and consistency

 

[Frogfish]

First goal was made by gerrard and they lost the ball foolishly

in fact, every goal came from either a quick counter attack or defensive errors.

Were chelsea going to let us do that? Were they shite. Suarez needs space to exploit and when you've got 2 CBs continually watching you you'll struggle.

Actually Suarez made all three himself getting through two poor tackles and superb finishing and then spotting the keeper off his line - you can hardly give an assist to anyone to a striker still 40-50yds out (though no doubt they'll count as such).

Anyway seems you missed the wink !

 

[Fox]

fair credit to Stu, without his effort the ball would have never got to Carroll, loved watching Andy play like that. The header will haunt him, if only in the corner arrggghhhhh