Benitez admits 'big mistakes'

[the_khl]

[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=39705.msg1084492#msg1084492 date=1270718145]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39705.msg1084489#msg1084489 date=1270717970]
That would depend on how many think Rafa's going to go on a nine Premier League winning rampage.

No one?


[/quote]

I wonder how many Mancs thought they'd win 1 League title let alone more in 1992?

Perspective is all.
[/quote]
You are clearly asking for to much mate...

 

[manwithnoname]

Nice sidestep but I think we both know the answer.

I don't think we both do

 

[Avmenon]

That's what I thought.

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39705.msg1084497#msg1084497 date=1270718300]

Nice sidestep but I think we both know the answer.

I don't think we both do
[/quote]

I don't think you know what you want really.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=39705.msg1084499#msg1084499 date=1270718426]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39705.msg1084497#msg1084497 date=1270718300]

Nice sidestep but I think we both know the answer.

I don't think we both do
[/quote]

I don't think you know what you want really.
[/quote]
No-one knows what they want these days.

 

[Avmenon]

Possibly, but I'm quite sure I don't want what you want.

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39705.msg1084501#msg1084501 date=1270718709]
Possibly, but I'm quite sure I don't want what you want.
[/quote]

Ha ha sounds like a motto.

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=39705.msg1084492#msg1084492 date=1270718145]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39705.msg1084489#msg1084489 date=1270717970]
That would depend on how many think Rafa's going to go on a nine Premier League winning rampage.

No one?


[/quote]

I wonder how many Mancs thought they'd win 1 League title let alone more in 1992?

Perspective is all.
[/quote]

So that it took 6 years before Alex Ferguson found his formula is proof for how long it takes. So any team hiring a new manager should forget what happens for 5 years because from the sixth year you will start winning the league on regular basis...

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=39705.msg1084505#msg1084505 date=1270719152]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=39705.msg1084492#msg1084492 date=1270718145]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39705.msg1084489#msg1084489 date=1270717970]
That would depend on how many think Rafa's going to go on a nine Premier League winning rampage.

No one?


[/quote]

I wonder how many Mancs thought they'd win 1 League title let alone more in 1992?

Perspective is all.
[/quote]

So that it took 6 years before Alex Ferguson found his formula is proof for how long it takes. So any team hiring a new manager should forget what happens for 5 years because from the sixth year you will start winning the league on regular basis...
[/quote]

Only if you've misunderstood what's been said earlier.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=39705.msg1084505#msg1084505 date=1270719152]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=39705.msg1084492#msg1084492 date=1270718145]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39705.msg1084489#msg1084489 date=1270717970]
That would depend on how many think Rafa's going to go on a nine Premier League winning rampage.

No one?


[/quote]

I wonder how many Mancs thought they'd win 1 League title let alone more in 1992?

Perspective is all.
[/quote]

So that it took 6 years before Alex Ferguson found his formula is proof for how long it takes. So any team hiring a new manager should forget what happens for 5 years because from the sixth year you will start winning the league on regular basis...
[/quote]

It's a fucking pointless, annoying point that keeps being made over and over.

The game has moved on two decades since. Financially and competitively the league is ALOT different, and the Champions league as it stands now demands a top four finish consistently to stand a chance in the current financial climate, especially for a club witout a stadium to match supporter demand.

No one's saying a manager has to win the league in the first couple of seasons, but challenging and showing consistent improvement in areas such as the transfer market, the league, let alone learning from basic mistakes, is absolutely paramount. There's less room for error because so much can change now in a year of football. If we lose out on a top four finish and fail to go any further in the Europa League then it could have a detrimental effect on the club that could realistically see lose players etc in the space of a season.

So stop going on about Slur fucking Alex!

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39705.msg1084511#msg1084511 date=1270719808]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=39705.msg1084505#msg1084505 date=1270719152]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=39705.msg1084492#msg1084492 date=1270718145]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39705.msg1084489#msg1084489 date=1270717970]
That would depend on how many think Rafa's going to go on a nine Premier League winning rampage.

No one?


[/quote]

I wonder how many Mancs thought they'd win 1 League title let alone more in 1992?

Perspective is all.
[/quote]

So that it took 6 years before Alex Ferguson found his formula is proof for how long it takes. So any team hiring a new manager should forget what happens for 5 years because from the sixth year you will start winning the league on regular basis...
[/quote]

It's a fucking pointless, annoying point that keeps being made over and over.

The game has moved on two decades since. Financially and competitively the league is ALOT different, and the Champions league as it stands now demands a top four finish consistently to stand a chance in the current financial climate, especially for a club witout a stadium to match supporter demand.

No one's saying a manager has to win the league in the first couple of seasons, but challenging and showing consistent improvement in areas such as the transfer market, the league, let alone learning from basic mistakes, is absolutely paramount. There's less room for error because so much can change now in a year of football. If we lose out on a top four finish and fail to go any further in the Europa League then it could have a detrimental effect on the club that could realistically see lose players etc in the space of a season.

So stop going on about Slur fucking Alex!
[/quote]

It is not only that the premiership has changed. it might also be, I know it is only a slight chance of course, that Slur fucking Alex is the exception and not the standard!

 

[Molbystwin]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39705.msg1084319#msg1084319 date=1270691682]
I'm surprised you see things this way Lech.
[/quote]th

He's fooling me then, wheeling and dealing your way through at that level is not going to work, we have been comfortablly top four for a while along come city and spend gazillions and we with a few key injuries all of a sudden are up against it, where is the surprise? I'm still a fan of rafa and hope he stays, i feel sorry for the shit he has had to due to the owners ineptitude and think its daft to want him gone.

 

[manwithnoname]

He's fooling me then, wheeling and dealing your way through at that level is not going to work, we have been comfortablly top four for a while along come city and spend gazillions and we with a few key injuries all of a sudden are up against it, where is the surprise? I'm still a fan of rafa and hope he stays, i feel sorry for the shit he has had to due to the owners ineptitude and think its daft to want him gone.

What has the "owners' ineptitude" got to do with spunking £40m on Keane and Aquilani?

Or having Inusa and Lucarse in the first team?

That's down to only one person's ineptitude.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39705.msg1084550#msg1084550 date=1270723934]

He's fooling me then, wheeling and dealing your way through at that level is not going to work, we have been comfortablly top four for a while along come city and spend gazillions and we with a few key injuries all of a sudden are up against it, where is the surprise? I'm still a fan of rafa and hope he stays, i feel sorry for the shit he has had to due to the owners ineptitude and think its daft to want him gone.

What has the "owners' ineptitude" got to do with spunking £40m on Keane and Aquilani?

Or having Inusa and Lucarse in the first team?

That's down to only one person's ineptitude.
[/quote]

loads of people on this site were over the moon at the keane signing, we can't be wise to the event now with hindsight.

 

[robinhood]

The only thing I truly loathe Benitez for is not playing Gerrard in central midfield even when there isn't a sensible alternative.

Everything else I can somehow forgive even up to this point, but his treatment of Gerrard has always got on my nerves. Gerrard has got Rafa out of so many fixes whilst playing in CM it's untrue, and he acts like it's better for the "team" to play Lucas there ahead of him.

It shows me that he can't really see what's happening on the pitch, and/or he's too stubborn to care, preferring to force his weird logic on the game.

For this thing alone, because I'm sure he's never going to properly see the light on it, he's well past his sell by date for me and I want him out.

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=39705.msg1084557#msg1084557 date=1270724611]
The only thing I truly loathe Benitez for is not playing Gerrard in central midfield even when there isn't a sensible alternative.

Everything else I can somehow forgive even up to this point, but his treatment of Gerrard has always got on my nerves. Gerrard has got Rafa out of so many fixes whilst playing in CM it's untrue, and he acts like it's better for the "team" to play Lucas there ahead of him.

It shows me that he can't really see what's happening on the pitch, and/or he's too stubborn to care, preferring to force his weird logic on the game.

For this thing alone, because I'm sure he's never going to properly see the light on it, he's well past his sell by date for me and I want him out.
[/quote]

Your many posts about Gerrard's best position, despite all of the statistical evidence against (goals scored, partnership with Torres, league position, awards won) are confused at best, and probably wrong at worst, however it's very obvious that if your only other option in CM is Lucarse, then you HAVE to play Gerrard there.

 

[Molbystwin]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39705.msg1084550#msg1084550 date=1270723934]

He's fooling me then, wheeling and dealing your way through at that level is not going to work, we have been comfortablly top four for a while along come city and spend gazillions and we with a few key injuries all of a sudden are up against it, where is the surprise? I'm still a fan of rafa and hope he stays, i feel sorry for the shit he has had to due to the owners ineptitude and think its daft to want him gone.

What has the "owners' ineptitude" got to do with spunking £40m on Keane and Aquilani?

Or having Inusa and Lucarse in the first team?

That's down to only one person's ineptitude.
[/quote]

Its got everything to do with it, if your budget is limited then every signing you make has to be spot on and you have to hope that your best players do not get injured or lose form because you dont have the squad depth to replace them. Its easy with hindsight to say Keane and Aquilani were big mistakes but i for one was over the moon when we signed Keane, i didnt want Alonso sold so i cant say i was delighted aquilani arrived and as for aquilani he clearly is just crocked,so you get to watch Lucas,who is just extremely average.

But thats the point also if you are having to manage on a limited budget ( very limited this season) and your opponents can and do spend big bucks on players then you end up buying an 8M pound player like Lucas, you take the gamble on a player who might develop into something more valuable.

This season for large chunks of the season we have been without the three best players of last season and due to a net zero spend we still do not have any more on pitch quality to make up for that, one of our opponents have suddenly become rich as croesus and lo and behold.... we are fucked.

I dont see anything surprising in that tbh.

99% on here want Rafa gone and think the mans a loser and has lost it, some seem to think hes responsible for the worlds ills ranging from global warming to the holocaust i personally reckon he isnt the problem at the club its most definitely the owners. You lot may well get your wish and see him walk but IMO rafa needs support and proper backing so that we can avoid truly fuckig depressig seasons like this one.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39705.msg1084558#msg1084558 date=1270724785]
Your many posts about Gerrard's best position, despite all of the statistical evidence against (goals scored, partnership with Torres, league position, awards won) are confused at best, and probably wrong at worst, however it's very obvious that if your only other option in CM is Lucarse, then you HAVE to play Gerrard there.
[/quote]

I've never said his best position was anywhere other than CM, so you're talking shit - but I think you're referring to the fact that I usually try to recommend we try some other method (for example, playing Aquilani behind Torres instead) and you usually argue the toss with me about that.

But I've never really complained about Gerrard being used as a utility when we had sensible alternatives going for central midfield.

When we had Sissoko, and it was clear he wasn't going to work out, I complained that Gerrard should be in CM saying that he was scoring as many goals from there as he was from the right, despite what Rafa was telling the press.

When we had Alonso, Mascher and Gerrard and Alonso wasn't having his best season, I said I was happy to sell Alonso to use the money elsewhere and put Gerrard back in central midfield.

When it all worked well last season, I said nothing - there was no reason to complain.

But this season, like you say, has defied belief.

 

[manwithnoname]

Its got everything to do with it, if your budget is limited then every signing you make has to be spot on and you have to hope that your best players do not get injured or lose form because you dont have the squad depth to replace them

He's made some truly dismal signings that have fuck all to do with available budget, and everything to do with buying shit players, or players that don't actually seem to have any role in the formation he wants to play.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39705.msg1084562#msg1084562 date=1270725282]

Its got everything to do with it, if your budget is limited then every signing you make has to be spot on and you have to hope that your best players do not get injured or lose form because you dont have the squad depth to replace them

He's made some truly dismal signings that have fuck all to do with available budget, and everything to do with buying shit players, or players that don't actually seem to have any role in the formation he wants to play.

[/quote]
If you look solely at out big money signings I think it's fair to say he's had quite a decent hand in the market.

Johnson, Alonso, Masher, Torres > Keane, Aquilani

The fact of the matter is if we've had the financial backing to buy players in the £30M-bracket as well those stats would've probably been even better. Villa, Alves and Silva amongst others would've entered the equation I reckon.

 

[Molbystwin]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39705.msg1084562#msg1084562 date=1270725282]

Its got everything to do with it, if your budget is limited then every signing you make has to be spot on and you have to hope that your best players do not get injured or lose form because you dont have the squad depth to replace them

He's made some truly dismal signings that have fuck all to do with available budget, and everything to do with buying shit players, or players that don't actually seem to have any role in the formation he wants to play.

[/quote]

Yes he has made some truly dismal signings no doubt, my point is that the pressure to make the signings and the cash available at any one time during his tenure are not completely unrelated. This summer man city will go out sign a superstar or two,especially if they get CL, you know they will, it may even be Torres... we will be scraping around looking and praying to find something cheap.The gravity of money has always made a difference and always will make a difference, you can fly for a bit but gravity always wins. Always.

This season the inept owners gambled and took the cheap ass version of a summer optimistic that Rafas second placed team would comfortably finish in the positions they expected ( not first i might add, that isnt important for them at all clearly) we got crocked man city got better and you get ....fucked.

Bizzare rafa formations and selections and signings made aside..... How about Robben?? On the right wing....

You probably wont convince me Brendan, ive been reading rafa out on here for fucking ages now and im still not convinced, i do have faith in the fella, thats not to say i aint pissed off of course i am but .... i prefer to use my venom on the real culprits.

wonders if you have to fill in some kind of form for SoS??

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=39705.msg1084571#msg1084571 date=1270726196]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39705.msg1084562#msg1084562 date=1270725282]

Its got everything to do with it, if your budget is limited then every signing you make has to be spot on and you have to hope that your best players do not get injured or lose form because you dont have the squad depth to replace them

He's made some truly dismal signings that have fuck all to do with available budget, and everything to do with buying shit players, or players that don't actually seem to have any role in the formation he wants to play.

[/quote]

Yes he has made some truly dismal signings no doubt, my point is that the pressure to make the signings and the cash available at any one time during his tenure are not completely unrelated. This summer man city will go out sign a superstar or two,especially if they get CL, you know they will, it may even be Torres... we will be scraping around looking and praying to find something cheap.The gravity of money has always made a difference and always will make a difference, you can fly for a bit but gravity always wins. Always.

This season the inept owners gambled and took the cheap ass version of a summer optimistic that Rafas second placed team would comfortably finish in the positions they expected ( not first i might add, that isnt important for them at all clearly) we got crocked man city got better and you get ....fucked.

Bizzare rafa formations and selections and signings made aside..... How about Robben?? On the right wing....

You probably wont convince me Brendan, ive been reading rafa out on here for fucking ages now and im still not convinced, i do have faith in the fella, thats not to say i aint pissed off of course i am but .... i prefer to use my venom on the real culprits.

wonders if you have to fill in some kind of form for SoS??
[/quote]

completely agree with this, except...(and this is coming from a rafa fan)

1. keane
what was the point of the signing if he clearly wasn't going to break up the gerrard/torres combo? a 20 million pound back up striker sounds excessive.

2. aqua
what was the thinking behind getting a player with a horrendous injury record?
in rafa's defense shit loads of people were advocating signing owen (awfully quiet now though) if that isn't double fucking standards I don't know what is.

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=KHL link=topic=39705.msg1084566#msg1084566 date=1270725744]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39705.msg1084562#msg1084562 date=1270725282]

Its got everything to do with it, if your budget is limited then every signing you make has to be spot on and you have to hope that your best players do not get injured or lose form because you dont have the squad depth to replace them

He's made some truly dismal signings that have fuck all to do with available budget, and everything to do with buying shit players, or players that don't actually seem to have any role in the formation he wants to play.

[/quote]
If you look solely at out big money signings I think it's fair to say he's had quite a decent hand in the market.

Johnson, Alonso, Masher, Torres > Keane, Aquilani

The fact of the matter is if we've had the financial backing to buy players in the £30M-bracket as well those stats would've probably been even better. Villa, Alves and Silva amongst others would've entered the equation I reckon.
[/quote]

If you put Alonso in there you should also add Babel. Which gives him 4 out of 7 which is poor.

You also have to see how he has assembled his squads. DOssena was a big signing for us, and I guess noone in the backroom staff knew what his abilities were. He has brought in players like Voronin, Josemi, Nunez, Degen and others which are so poort hat he dont even want to have them in his squad. They are cheap yes, but they are paid well, and probably handed a decent sign on fee. And all they do is get in the way of younger fresher talent which, if not are any better at least cant be any worse.

He has put himself in a position where he believed Lucas would be sufficient midfield maestro to handle the premierleague, and he trusted that Gerrard and Torres would stay fit enough to play every game and spark like last year. A massive gamble which did not pay off at all.

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=39705.msg1084571#msg1084571 date=1270726196]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39705.msg1084562#msg1084562 date=1270725282]

Its got everything to do with it, if your budget is limited then every signing you make has to be spot on and you have to hope that your best players do not get injured or lose form because you dont have the squad depth to replace them

He's made some truly dismal signings that have fuck all to do with available budget, and everything to do with buying shit players, or players that don't actually seem to have any role in the formation he wants to play.

[/quote]

Yes he has made some truly dismal signings no doubt, my point is that the pressure to make the signings and the cash available at any one time during his tenure are not completely unrelated. This summer man city will go out sign a superstar or two,especially if they get CL, you know they will, it may even be Torres... we will be scraping around looking and praying to find something cheap.The gravity of money has always made a difference and always will make a difference, you can fly for a bit but gravity always wins. Always.

This season the inept owners gambled and took the cheap ass version of a summer optimistic that Rafas second placed team would comfortably finish in the positions they expected ( not first i might add, that isnt important for them at all clearly) we got crocked man city got better and you get ....fucked.

Bizzare rafa formations and selections and signings made aside..... How about Robben?? On the right wing....

You probably wont convince me Brendan, ive been reading rafa out on here for fucking ages now and im still not convinced, i do have faith in the fella, thats not to say i aint pissed off of course i am but .... i prefer to use my venom on the real culprits.
wonders if you have to fill in some kind of form for SoS??
[/quote]

So what exactly do you see in Benitez that make you believe he will be able to turn 6 defeats into wins the next season? What is it about his approach to games, or activity in the transfer market, that convinces you that he is able to pull that trick off?

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=KHL link=topic=39705.msg1084500#msg1084500 date=1270718506]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=39705.msg1084499#msg1084499 date=1270718426]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39705.msg1084497#msg1084497 date=1270718300]

Nice sidestep but I think we both know the answer.

I don't think we both do
[/quote]

I don't think you know what you want really.
[/quote]
No-one knows what they want these days.
[/quote]

Oh, right then, old timer... That's like some shite my Dad would mutter after a few bevvies, as he dives back into good-old-day syndrome.

I know what I want - Just ask me.

 

[peterhague]

i back rafa more than most on here, but his recent signings have been abysmal. aquilani, especially, was inexcusable, and i don't buy the argument that everyone makes mistakes - not like that. fergie's had a chequered recent record in the market, but i think a large part of that is down to him knowing he can afford to gamble on the likes of nani/anderson/tosic, because of the strength of his squad.

i just don't think he, or any other top manager, would ever have taken such a crazily reckless punt on a signing as crucial alonso's replacement.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=39705.msg1084665#msg1084665 date=1270736236]
i back rafa more than most on here, but his recent signings have been abysmal. aquilani, especially, was inexcusable, and i don't buy the argument that everyone makes mistakes - not like that. fergie's had a chequered recent record in the market, but i think a large part of that is down to him knowing he can afford to gamble on the likes of nani/anderson/tosic, because of the strength of his squad.

i just don't think he, or any other top manager, would ever have taken such a crazily reckless punt on a signing as crucial alonso's replacement.
[/quote]

fuuny you should mention fergie, hargreaves(sp) had a horrible injury record at BM before fergie snapped him up.

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39705.msg1084671#msg1084671 date=1270736766]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=39705.msg1084665#msg1084665 date=1270736236]
i back rafa more than most on here, but his recent signings have been abysmal. aquilani, especially, was inexcusable, and i don't buy the argument that everyone makes mistakes - not like that. fergie's had a chequered recent record in the market, but i think a large part of that is down to him knowing he can afford to gamble on the likes of nani/anderson/tosic, because of the strength of his squad.

i just don't think he, or any other top manager, would ever have taken such a crazily reckless punt on a signing as crucial alonso's replacement.
[/quote]

fuuny you should mention fergie, hargreaves(sp) had a horrible injury record at BM before fergie snapped him up.
[/quote]


who was hargreaves bought to replace?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=39705.msg1084689#msg1084689 date=1270738696]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39705.msg1084671#msg1084671 date=1270736766]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=39705.msg1084665#msg1084665 date=1270736236]
i back rafa more than most on here, but his recent signings have been abysmal. aquilani, especially, was inexcusable, and i don't buy the argument that everyone makes mistakes - not like that. fergie's had a chequered recent record in the market, but i think a large part of that is down to him knowing he can afford to gamble on the likes of nani/anderson/tosic, because of the strength of his squad.

i just don't think he, or any other top manager, would ever have taken such a crazily reckless punt on a signing as crucial alonso's replacement.
[/quote]

fuuny you should mention fergie, hargreaves(sp) had a horrible injury record at BM before fergie snapped him up.
[/quote]


who was hargreaves bought to replace?
[/quote]

fair comment. but doesn't suggest the buying power they (manu) have and the strength of the squad they had in place when rafa arrived?

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39705.msg1084700#msg1084700 date=1270740809]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=39705.msg1084689#msg1084689 date=1270738696]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39705.msg1084671#msg1084671 date=1270736766]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=39705.msg1084665#msg1084665 date=1270736236]
i back rafa more than most on here, but his recent signings have been abysmal. aquilani, especially, was inexcusable, and i don't buy the argument that everyone makes mistakes - not like that. fergie's had a chequered recent record in the market, but i think a large part of that is down to him knowing he can afford to gamble on the likes of nani/anderson/tosic, because of the strength of his squad.

i just don't think he, or any other top manager, would ever have taken such a crazily reckless punt on a signing as crucial alonso's replacement.
[/quote]

fuuny you should mention fergie, hargreaves(sp) had a horrible injury record at BM before fergie snapped him up.
[/quote]


who was hargreaves bought to replace?
[/quote]

fair comment. but doesn't suggest the buying power they (manu) have and the strength of the squad they had in place when rafa arrived?
[/quote]

but i'm not saying he should've won the last 3 titles, merely that serious questions need to be asked/answered about how, since getting a team & squad to the brink of completion, he's managed to blow nearly £40m on 2 players who seem to have been bought to play in gerrard's position, when we've had clear problems in other areas of the team.

not to mention that aquilani was injured, has always been injured, and looks like observing that tradition for the forseeable future. i gave him the benefit of the doubt at the time that he must've done his research and concluded that his previous problems weren't still a factor, but it's become patently obvious this season that that wasn't the case. i honestly think, in context, it's the worst signing LFC has made in the last 20 years. there's no mitigating factor at all.