10 games in...

[Red Mullet]

It's been 10 games so, although it's clichéd, how do you think we're doing?

Here's Carra take: - http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/148560-10-games-in-carragher-s-verdict

I think we're doing well, it's been a while since we've been in the top 4 in November. Admittedly, we've had an 'easier' run in but we beat Man Utd (always a plus) and our only real disappointing game is Southampton. I'm not too fussed about the loss to Arsenal because on any other day/season that can still happen.

So thoughts...

 

[nealmac]

We're (mostly) winning the games we should be winning, against weaker teams. I'm willing to let Southampton slide, as they're playing really well this season. We slipped up against Newcastle and Swansea, but we beat Utd, which makes up for it. Arsenal was always going to be a big ask from us.

All in all, I think we're going along nicely. But I'd rather wait until at least halfway through the season when we've played everyone once to make a proper call. We still have some tough games to get out of the way.

 

[Mors]

I think we've had an excellent start, but might be playing that well.
We played two 'big' teams, one at home, one away, beat the one at home, lost the one away.
We're joint 2nd in the league, if we were to finish the season there then we'd be over the moon.
It's all looking rosy at the moment, but we've got some more big games coming up, and we need to keep our current record intact - win at least 50% of the big games, and beat most of the rest.
I didn't think we'd be doing this well at the beginning of the season, but also I didn't think some teams around us would be doing so poorly. I thought Chelski would be walking away with the league already.

 

[Buddha]

Although we've done well it's somewhat telling that most of us are already placing a lot of hope in signing the right players in January.

It seems we all agree that we're lacking in midfield. Unless that is redressed in January, we're in danger of slipping out of the top 4 as the season goes on.

That said, we've reversed our habit of not putting away mid-low table teams at Anfield - that's a big step forward. We also look well set for the long-term with a vibrant youth set-up, a manager who's growing into the job and some much-needed stability organisationally.

Things are looking up.

 

[Tal]

May I remind all you romantic dreamers that not only are we joint 2nd, we are also just 1 point off 7th place, so temper your optimisim gents.

I'm giving us a 5/10.

For all our exciting attacking prowess at times, we've also looked very weak in midfield and uncertain in defence more times than we'd probably want to admit.

Too much is being made of beating Utd.
We blew it at Swansea when leading, in a fashion so typical of teams with fake pretensions of a top 4 place.
We didn't turn up at home to Southampton.
We scrambled a draw against a very modest Newcastle side.
We were shocking at Arsenal.

With away games at Everton, Spurs, City and Chelsea before January we are behind where we probably needed to be given the relatively benign set of fixtures we've had so far. A haul of 23 points would have been far more convincing than our current 20.

However, we are more than capable of winning our next 5 games (Fulham H, Everton A, Hull A, Norwich H and West Ham H) and arriving at those hard away games full of confidence and riding high.

 

[nealmac]

Thanks, Tal. You've just cheered us up no end.

 

[mark1975]

Nice interview with Carragher there.

It's difficult to tell how we've done really. Of the two big games we've played, we've won one and lost one, while we're still shipping cheap goals and dropping the odd points in games we should be winning.

That said, I think if we can get into the habit of battering the lesser sides, and we take points as often as we lose points against our rivals, then we'll be there or there abouts. Not many teams will fancy facing our front three.

 

[Hansern]

Joint 2nd is a 5/10?

After finishing 6th - 8th these last few seasons and having twice the point tally compared to last season after 10 games I'm struggeling to see the logic.

Points wise 9/10
Playing wise 6/10

Imho our target has to be a 2 point average. We havent been anywhere near our best on the pitch but WBA was a step in the right direction.

 

[Red Mullet]

5/10 is harsh, not even fair.

 

[SummerOnions]

It is Tal though

 

[mark1975]

With away games at Everton, Spurs, City and Chelsea before January we are behind where we probably needed to be given the relatively benign set of fixtures we've had so far. A haul of 23 points would have been far more convincing than our current 20.

It's not usually that sort of run of games that usually sees us slip up, we took how many points in the corresponding fixtures last year? I get your point mostly Tal, there's a fair bit of realism in there, but I'd say the draws against Newcastle and Swansea were the sort of games we'd have caved in and lost in other seasons (yeah I know we battered Newcastle last season). Like I said, aslong as we mostly batter the lesser sides (give or take the odd slip up) we'll be there or there abouts. Everyone's losing the odd game.

 

[Judge Jules]

We're challenging hard for a CL place and conceivably even title outsiders (at this early stage at any rate) if we can keep improving. It's been too long since we could say that about ourselves for a 5/10 mark to be justifiable IMO. I'd give us 7 - yes, we need to get better still, but it's a darn good start.

 

[tombrown]

gonna win da league this year. Mark Miwurdz

 

[Rosco]

Where do you see the improvement coming from ?

Points wise we're doing fine. On the pitch we're unconvincing for the most part. If I had to take a guess as to whether we'll continue averaging two points a game, improve or worsen - not surprisingly I can see us worsening a little bit. I think a battle for fourth is probably our ceiling this year, barring a great transfer window in January/ all round PED use in the squad.

And whether we're succeeding because of Rodgers' approach or other reasons needs to be monitored. 2 of the 17 goals we've scored have come as a result of the type of possession play he espouses , the rest have been much more direct / set pieces.
We are as likely to concede 2 when we have 60% possession as when we have 45% possession.

Our second half performances typically pale in comparison to the first half. 75% of our goals were scored in the first half, and the majority conceded in the second. If that's a case of fatigue , well that might be a warning sign that we could totally run out of steam in the second half of the season.

 

[mark1975]

I'm amazed we're running out of fatigue so rapidly. For a possession based side, we should be making teams work, instead we're harassing for 30 minutes and then we're done in. It's also astounding that for such a possession focused manager, the area of the team that's pivotal to that is also our biggest weakness - midfield. We have two players who aren't particularly above par technicians, and a fading star who lacks energy and is playing in a too defensively demanding role. The flip side is we have Allen and Coutinho who 'could' go some way to rectifying that, but we still lack that authority on the ball, someone who will control the tempo and pull the strings.

It seems like Rodgers is still trying to run before he can walk. He pulled the defense wide open last season, while lacking the players to make such a more expansive game work, and this season he's tried to sort the issues at the back, but failed to remedy the problems in the middle of the park.

Sturridge and Coutinho are fantastic additions, so it'd be harsh to say that Suarez and Sturridge are bailing us out regardless of his input (he bought one half of it), but still, there's some truth in that. I guess the plus is he sought to rectify the goals issue and over reliance on Suarez, by ensuring we had more threat to carry us until we can complete whatever it is he's trying to do.

In fairness, we always said it would take time, he's spent alot but we needed to spend alot, and like most managers he's got some right and some hopelessly wrong, but it was always going to take a couple of seasons to get where we want to be.

Are we still a way off? When you look at our defensive organisation and our problems in midfield, you'd have to say yes. Are we on the right track? Of course we are, 4th was always going to be the realistic ceiling and given the competition, it wouldn't be unfair to say that even that's pushing it. Still, we look remotely capable of mounting some sort of domestic challenge in an environment that's about as open and competitive as it's ever been. So for his second season that's a marked improvement on recent managers.

 

[LarryHagman]

Can't argue with the points total although, as I'm sure most will agree, we don't look that great.
It's a tight league. I think we're improving but I don't think we're top 4 material. You'd have to expect a couple of the teams in and around us to kick on and overtake us, they've clearly got better squads.
Buy some decent midfielders, hold on to our strikers and we've got a chance next year. Maybe.

 

[Red Mullet]

Can't argue with the points total although, as I'm sure most will agree, we don't look that great.
It's a tight league. I think we're improving but I don't think we're top 4 material. You'd have to expect a couple of the teams in and around us to kick on and overtake us, they've clearly got better squads.
Buy some decent midfielders, hold on to our strikers and we've got a chance next year. Maybe.

I think we'll get in to the top 4 this season. I also believe we won't fair very well in the CL and get exposed. Fundamentally, we don't have Rafa's knowledge of the European game. So, it'll be a high to get back in to the CL but next season we'll struggle.

 

[TheRedCrusade]

The Top 4 is still well and truly in Liverpool’s reach. The matches against the other contenders may seem to matter, but consider this. In that dramatic title chase in 2008-09, the Mancs lost to Liverpool twice. They took 5 points off teams 2nd-4th, Liverpool took 14. They took 11 points off teams in 5th-7th, Liverpool took 12. The important difference? The rest of the league. Liverpool took 60 points off teams 7th-20th; the Mancs got 74 against the teams you’d expect them to beat. THAT won them the league. I’ll bet they’d willingly lose 4-1 at Old Trafford every season if they kept taking 74 points off the bottom 14 sides.

Some stats which I read here:
http://www.thisisanfield.com/2013/11/reality-checks-top-4-hopes-man-team-mirror/

I think we need not win all big games but we must win where we should win and that is the games like listed as Hull, Fulham, Norwich, WestHam n all that crap. As we saw Chlesea lost to Castle and dropped 3 points where we got 1 point, although there was no excuse that we could not get all three at SJP. Spurs got 0 points against WestHam at home but we must get all three there. So we have to make difference point by point, there aint going be any miracle and win 10 games in a row or something. So I am quite satisfied till now with our current progress. If we go by this record we will get almost like 76 points (if m nt wrong) and that can be enough to be in top 4

 

[juniormember]

As bad as 8th placed Scum have been, they could be level on points with us should they win and we lose our next game.
Our form up till January will be absolutely vital if we're to stay in contention for the top 4.

 

[Hansern]

We havent looked tired at all in our last 3 second halfs, so I think that argument is gone atm.
Of the 6 goals we've scored, its been 4 and 2, and we had several chances against N'Castle, WBA and Arsenal in the 2nd half. We actually played better in the 2nd half vs Arsenal.

 

[keniget]

More inclined to agree with Tal.

A good start means more than points on the board. We need to see evidence of momentum being built up that can carry us forward and ensure that we don't end up simply flattering to deceive.

The top teams do endure a bad start at times but round about now you tend to see elements of recovery and can predict an upward curve in terms of form.

If I could happily predict that improvement I'd give us 8/10 given where we were last season. As things stand, I don't really understand where we are going as a team - we look no closer to creating a cohesive unit. Suarez and Sturridge are great, yeah, but I don't know whether they will be enough.

 

[mark1975]

But surely an addition of another midfielder and the return of Coutinho will go some way to rectifying that? We've got Fulham next, I'd like to see a return to 4 at the back, Coutinho back in and a reshuffle in midfield, put Coutinho in the left sided roaming role, Gerrard back in the advanced position and give Allen another shot.

 

[Rosco]

GOALS BY HALF (overall) 1st half 2nd half
Goals scored 76.5% 23.5%
Goals conceded 30.0% 70.0%

AVERAGE MINUTES (overall)
Avg. minute goals scored 35.24
Avg. minute goals conceded 46.90

OPENING GOALS (overall) Matches %
Team scores first 6 / 10 60.0%
Opponent scores first 4 / 10 40.0%

HALF-TIME LEAD (overall) Matches %
Team leads at half-time 7 / 10 70.0%
Opponent leads at half-time 1 / 10 10.0%

 

[keniget]

But surely an addition of another midfielder and the return of Coutinho will go some way to rectifying that? We've got Fulham next, I'd like to see a return to 4 at the back, Coutinho back in and a reshuffle in midfield, put Coutinho in the left sided roaming role, Gerrard back in the advanced position and give Allen another shot.

Maybe. I think our problems go a little deeper than that. I was hopeful when Rodgers joined that we would be working towards a vision (given all the the nonsense about how he likes his teams to play) and as things stand I'm not sure whether that is happening. I'm glad that Rodgers is showing that he is flexible and open to changing things particularly if it means getting the most out of what he's got, but one player missing shouldn't necessitate such a rethink and without wishing to sound like an impatient "Sky generation" fan, shouldn't we be seeing just a little bit more of that end game right now?

 

[mark1975]

Maybe. I think our problems go a little deeper than that. I was hopeful when Rodgers joined that we would be working towards a vision (given all the the nonsense about how he likes his teams to play) and as things stand I'm not sure whether that is happening. I'm glad that Rodgers is showing that he is flexible and open to changing things particularly if it means getting the most out of what he's got, but one player missing shouldn't necessitate such a rethink and without wishing to sound like an impatient "Sky generation" fan, shouldn't we be seeing just a little bit more of that end game right now?

You could argue we saw that 'end game' last season, after 6 months. A stuttering start this season in terms of style shouldn't completely undo all of that, we've added new players, changed the system round for whatever reason and had a couple of injuries and Suarez' suspension. Surely with returning players and (hopefully) a return to a more preferred setup, we should see us settle down a bit more.

Don't forget we've completely overhauled the side in recent years in terms of personnel and tactics. We've gone from being a tight, tactical unit to trying expand our play and change our philosophy. We spent a decade as a workmanlike side (for the most part) that was heavily reliant on an industrious midfield and an over protected back four. It'll take time. Splitting Rodgers times here into three half seasons. We've had us struggling to adapt to new tactics, playing some inspiring and promising football and we're now getting results (more or less) but struggling to up the play a notch. If we have a second half to the season like last year then things will be looking good. If we don't, well it's reminiscent of what happened with Dalglish, a promising season finale that ends up being just another false dawn.

 

[Tal]

I may nudge up my rating to 6/10 at this rate...

 

[Red Mullet]

I may nudge up my rating to 6/10 as this rate...

Steady Tal, steady.