WTF Rafa?!?!

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36161.msg954322#msg954322 date=1254290801]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36161.msg954310#msg954310 date=1254279048]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36161.msg954229#msg954229 date=1254266318]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36161.msg954223#msg954223 date=1254266012]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36161.msg954205#msg954205 date=1254264642]
Calm down people.

Shit performances and results happen from time to time. Get over it.
[/quote]

The worst thing from last night is that all that confidence we had built up for Sunday with recent results was completely wiped out last night.

Sunday is a must win if we want to win the league.
[/quote]

No it won't be.

There's a difference between being shite and playing shite. We know we're good enough to win anywhere, and have proved before that we don't let one mediocre performance determine the next.

Some people are getting far too worked up over this.
[/quote]

How do you gain confidence from being shite against every half decent team you've played this year, nevermind Chelsea.


[/quote]

By knowing that you beat Chelsea home and away last season, by knowing that you finished above them last season, by knowing that you've scored more goals than any other team in the fucking country, by knowing that one shit performance doesn't determine everything, and most importantly - by knowing that your mindset isn't as fucking brittle and swayable(?) as yours Dreamy.
[/quote]

Ah but you forget what my mindset has been for a while. Plus we conceded 4 goals the last time we played at the bridge.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36161.msg954329#msg954329 date=1254291331]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36161.msg954322#msg954322 date=1254290801]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36161.msg954310#msg954310 date=1254279048]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36161.msg954229#msg954229 date=1254266318]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36161.msg954223#msg954223 date=1254266012]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36161.msg954205#msg954205 date=1254264642]
Calm down people.

Shit performances and results happen from time to time. Get over it.
[/quote]

The worst thing from last night is that all that confidence we had built up for Sunday with recent results was completely wiped out last night.

Sunday is a must win if we want to win the league.
[/quote]

No it won't be.

There's a difference between being shite and playing shite. We know we're good enough to win anywhere, and have proved before that we don't let one mediocre performance determine the next.

Some people are getting far too worked up over this.
[/quote]

How do you gain confidence from being shite against every half decent team you've played this year, nevermind Chelsea.


[/quote]

By knowing that you beat Chelsea home and away last season, by knowing that you finished above them last season, by knowing that you've scored more goals than any other team in the fucking country, by knowing that one shit performance doesn't determine everything, and most importantly - by knowing that your mindset isn't as fucking brittle and swayable(?) as yours Dreamy.
[/quote]

Ah but you forget what my mindset has been for a while.
[/quote]

You don't have one Dreamy. You just have a set.

 

[spider-Neil]

the point about resting is tackling fatigue BEFORE it sets in. you rest people to keep them fresh not to give them a rest.

 

[SaRed]

[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36161.msg954312#msg954312 date=1254281486]
I'm not sure Villa or even Spurs are half decent. I don't think they're in Fiorentina's league for a start.
[/quote]

Haha...

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36161.msg954312#msg954312 date=1254281486]
I'm not sure Villa or even Spurs are half decent. I don't think they're in Fiorentina's league for a start.
[/quote]

Spurs are as good as Fiorentina in my opinion.

 

[jimmy]

I think the reason we lost is due to the team's complacency rahter than to Fiorentina being so great. It looked to me as if we were sure all we had to do was to show up and 3 points were in the bag. That's what made Fiorentina look so great in the 1st half.
In the 2nd half we dominated (yes - we owned the MF) and made Fiorentina look much more ordinary. We had a couple of good chances in the early stages of the 2nd half and had one of these gone in the game would have ended differently, as it was clear they were getting tired.

I'm not not sure the Lucas - Aurelio partnership is good enough for a title winning team, but what we had yesterday should have been enough to draw or win the game. I believe we'll go through and probably be joined by Lyon.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36161.msg954229#msg954229 date=1254266318]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36161.msg954223#msg954223 date=1254266012]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36161.msg954205#msg954205 date=1254264642]
Calm down people.

Shit performances and results happen from time to time. Get over it.
[/quote]

The worst thing from last night is that all that confidence we had built up for Sunday with recent results was completely wiped out last night.

Sunday is a must win if we want to win the league.
[/quote]

No it won't be.

There's a difference between being shite and playing shite. We know we're good enough to win anywhere, and have proved before that we don't let one mediocre performance determine the next.

Some people are getting far too worked up over this.
[/quote]

If anything it might act as a kick up the arse.

We need to remember how to defend well and break well.

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36161.msg954223#msg954223 date=1254266012]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36161.msg954205#msg954205 date=1254264642]
Calm down people.

Shit performances and results happen from time to time. Get over it.
[/quote]

The worst thing from last night is that all that confidence we had built up for Sunday with recent results was completely wiped out last night.

Sunday is a must win if we want to win the league.
[/quote]

How do you make that out?. I would consider going to the bridge and getting a draw as being a very good result.

 

[gkmacca]

I think it's hard to judge what Rafa was trying to do yesterday because the team failed so totally to achieve it. Which - outside of rage's infantile world of omnipotent managerial competence 101 - leaves one with little more than dubious speculation mixed with doubts about his pre-match briefings, along with far, far, more serious and empirically grounded complaints about the players. As Benitez said after the match: “We didn’t do anything that we spoke about in the first half. We improved after the break, but we didn’t play well from the beginning, too many problems, too many mistakes, so we had to change everything, and the second half was much better, but it was too late by then.â€

 

[Vlads Quiff]

In hind-sight the selection was a mistake, however I think they are a better team than we were expecting.
I thought their central defence was fantastic, and that Jovetic is a gem.
We lost, it happens, we played very well second half , but did not get the breaks.
We just can't afford any more experiments.

regards

 

[keniget]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36161.msg954349#msg954349 date=1254295787]
If anything it might act as a kick up the arse.

We need to remember how to defend well and break well.
[/quote]

I was talking to someone at work the other day about how the season has gone and he reflected upon the losses to Spurs and Villa as a kick up the ass. This team only seems to produce when it's back is up against the wall, so maybe we'll get that win-or-bust mentality before March this time round (doesn't look like happening though).

That is a fair point, but the thing is, it's one we really shouldn't have to make. I know we don't have much title winning experience in the side, but you have to start from somewhere... you need a team that will accept nothing less than a win week in, week out. The manager is in his sixth season, this group of players have been together for a couple years now, they have the experience of coming close last season... there should really be no talk of needing a kick up the ass.

 

[gkmacca]

Quite. And it continues to irritate that the players often fail to find the right high tempo until after the half time break. When they DO start with a good tempo (probably the best of all was against Derby a couple of seasons ago when we seemed to have 33 players on the pitch) the result is fantastic, yet time and again they seem to amble to half time and then come out again looking suitably chastened. Sammy Lee as well as Rafa must be wondering what else can be done to send them out in the right frame of mind.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36161.msg954382#msg954382 date=1254298563]
Quite. And it continues to irritate that the players often fail to find the right high tempo until after the half time break. When they DO start with a good tempo (probably the best of all was against Derby a couple of seasons ago when we seemed to have 33 players on the pitch) the result is fantastic, yet time and again they seem to amble to half time and then come out again looking suitably chastened. Sammy Lee as well as Rafa must be wondering what else can be done to send them out in the right frame of mind.
[/quote]

Promise of a post match lollipop?

 

[gkmacca]

It's a real problem. We rarely seem to hit our stride until the second half.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36161.msg954390#msg954390 date=1254298873]
It's a real problem. We rarely seem to hit our stride until the second half.
[/quote]
Its a problem we've had for years. Like our problems at taking ANY kind of decent corner. Whilst i couldn't even begin to think what Rafa and sammy might talk about to improve it, the blame surely falls at the players. How dare they not even try in the first half of some games. I honestly find it appalling. You play for club as prestigious as Liverpool and you can't be arsed? There's an attitude problem that i think comes from complacency from the players. It's always against teams which the media think we'll beat. Perhaps this mentality creeps into the players minds and therefore when we're losing and they get a half time bollocking they begin to try then.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36161.msg954382#msg954382 date=1254298563]
Quite. And it continues to irritate that the players often fail to find the right high tempo until after the half time break. When they DO start with a good tempo (probably the best of all was against Derby a couple of seasons ago when we seemed to have 33 players on the pitch) the result is fantastic, yet time and again they seem to amble to half time and then come out again looking suitably chastened. Sammy Lee as well as Rafa must be wondering what else can be done to send them out in the right frame of mind.
[/quote]

I've often wondered about this and about how much of it is down to Rafa's tactics. He seems intent at times on letting teams play and run out of steam before hitting them with a sucker punch, the problem being that occasionally when we let them play they hurt us.

It's like it's a case of, let them have the ball, close them down, pressure them and force mistakes, which is all well and good, but when you've got players of the calibre of Gerrard, Torres, Yossi etc, it should be a case of "get the ball and hurt THEM".

 

[gkmacca]

Well, afterwards he always complains about the tempo early on, so it doesn't sound as if he plans that. Why it happens I just don't know. It's certainly not the players 'not being arsed'. maybe it's fear, or an over-eagerness to get certain tactical moves executed properly, but it recurs so often it's bewildering. The whole of the coaching staff should be exasperated by it.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36161.msg954424#msg954424 date=1254301161]
Well, afterwards he always complains about the tempo early on, so it doesn't sound as if he plans that. Why it happens I just don't know. It's certainly not the players 'not being arsed'. maybe it's fear, or an over-eagerness to get certain tactical moves executed properly, but it recurs so often it's bewildering. The whole of the coaching staff should be exasperated by it.
[/quote]

We've got some of the best players in the world so if it's down to fear, perhaps there might be a need to call for a psychologist.

 

[the_khl]

Rafa's probably been taking a quick glance at our subs before kick-off in recent games thinking to himself 'uh-oh, can't afford any injuries can we now'.

- Come on lads, take it easy outthere. Don't hurt yourself, no?!

 

[gkmacca]

'No, just REALLY over-exert yourselves in the second half, when you've more chance of straining something!' Nope, it's a mystery.

 

[Squiggles]

We should've played better and Benitez's experiment failed to work for all manner of reasons.

But if we want a manger to prioritise the league above all else, then matches like this are, unfortunately, inevitable. Our wafer thin squad is also a major factor in this.

 

[spider-Neil]

it's got nothing to do with 'kick up the arse' I think rafa was just surprised how good the italians were. we can point to 'offside fuck up', profligate finishing etc but there comes a time when you just have to put your hands in the air and say the team that beat us were very good (and they were). I watched the game last night and I actually don't think we played that badly, we certainly created enough chances to at least draw the game, but the italians soaked up pressure defending superbly and were clinical with their finishing. looking for scapegoats is tiresome.

we need to dust ourselves down, learn from this and prepare for chelsea.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36161.msg954443#msg954443 date=1254302056]
'No, just REALLY over-exert yourselves in the second half, when you've more chance of straining something!' Nope, it's a mystery.
[/quote]

Maybe he's just acting irrationally after having watched the first 45 minutes of mediocrity?

Anyways as Ryan said somewhere, you won't win every games in a Season and last night, whether we liked it or not, was one of those games we could actually 'afford' to loose.

We're still pretty much in the run for a top two spot in our group and when we've taught Lyon a lesson at Anfield we'll be back on track.

 

[Judge Jules]

I hope you're right, my friend, but we reduced our margin of error quite a bit last night.

 

[spider-Neil]

far be it for me to attempt to give rafa advice but

a) when it became apparant that the italians had noted yossi's ventures inside, he (rafa) should have instructed yossi to give insua more protection, they gave us trouble virtually every time they came down our left side.

b) yossi was occupying the space that should have been gerrard's which meant gerrard wasn't effective as he usually is behind torres.

c) rieira should have come on last night, if for no other reason them to stop the flow of attacks down the left. it also would have given aurelio a passing option on the left

d) aurelio and lucas played as dedicated holding midfielders even though we were chasing the game. one of them should have taken responsibility and pushed up to give torres and gerrard more support.

e) would have been nice to have babel on earlier and riera should have come on instead of voronin as we were having jump down the flanks and for the first time in the game the italians were strecthed whereas before they were comfortable with bodies behind the ball

f) the CM should have come forwards with the ball more, yeah yeah blah blah a defenders job is to defend, the italians were compact and pratically marked gerrard, torres and kuyt out of the game, this left an absolute SEA for the CM midfielders to run into unchallenged with would have forced the italians to leave their markers, but they choose to pass it between themselves ad nauseum, the ONE time one of the CM decided to take it forwards we could and probably SHOULD have scored.

other than that the italians played well and are a credit to serie a

 

[gkmacca]

It shows you have to be preternaturally cool-headed and tough to be a manager, because, while it's fine when one or two things go wrong, it must be tempting just to curl up and weep when just about everything goes wrong. I mean, you have to use something as a stabilising element when you tinker during a half, but I didn't see anything last night to use!

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36161.msg954484#msg954484 date=1254305286]
It shows you have to be preternaturally cool-headed and tough to be a manager, because, while it's fine when one or two things go wrong, it must be tempting just to curl up and weep when just about everything goes wrong. I mean, you have to use something as a stabilising element when you tinker during a half, but I didn't see anything last night to use!
[/quote]

stop the flow of attacks and then build form there. if it were up to me I would have taken of insua and yossi and replaced them with babel and aurelio, and played them thus;

--------------------------pepe--------------------------
johnson-------carra----------skrtel--------aurelio
babel--------lucas------------gerrard--------riera
---------------------kuyt----torres------------------

aurelio would have passing options in wide positions
riera would give more protection to riera
babel could get at their left back
lucas can hold with gerrard pushing up.
to tell the truth we could have done a lot worse that starting with that team.

 

[gkmacca]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36161.msg954494#msg954494 date=1254306023]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36161.msg954484#msg954484 date=1254305286]
It shows you have to be preternaturally cool-headed and tough to be a manager, because, while it's fine when one or two things go wrong, it must be tempting just to curl up and weep when just about everything goes wrong. I mean, you have to use something as a stabilising element when you tinker during a half, but I didn't see anything last night to use!
[/quote]

stop the flow of attacks and then build form there. if it were up to me I would have taken of insua and yossi and replaced them with babel and aurelio, and played them thus;

--------------------------pepe--------------------------
johnson-------carra----------skrtel--------aurelio
babel--------lucas------------gerrard--------riera
---------------------kuyt----torres------------------

aurelio would have passing options in wide positions
riera would give more protection to riera
babel could get at their left back
lucas can hold with gerrard pushing up.
to tell the truth we could have done a lot worse that starting with that team.
[/quote]

The Italians were so active and fluid all over the pitch that's easier said than done during the half. It would have been a better way to start, though.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36161.msg954495#msg954495 date=1254306151]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36161.msg954494#msg954494 date=1254306023]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36161.msg954484#msg954484 date=1254305286]
It shows you have to be preternaturally cool-headed and tough to be a manager, because, while it's fine when one or two things go wrong, it must be tempting just to curl up and weep when just about everything goes wrong. I mean, you have to use something as a stabilising element when you tinker during a half, but I didn't see anything last night to use!
[/quote]

stop the flow of attacks and then build form there. if it were up to me I would have taken of insua and yossi and replaced them with babel and aurelio, and played them thus;

--------------------------pepe--------------------------
johnson-------carra----------skrtel--------aurelio
babel--------lucas------------gerrard--------riera
---------------------kuyt----torres------------------

aurelio would have passing options in wide positions
riera would give more protection to riera
babel could get at their left back
lucas can hold with gerrard pushing up.
to tell the truth we could have done a lot worse that starting with that team.
[/quote]

The Italians were so active and fluid all over the pitch that's easier said than done during the half. It would have been a better way to start, though.
[/quote]

I wish it were hindsight speaking but if you look at my team in the match thread the only difference I had was mash for babel. the italians were given a free run at our left fullback and we didn't attempt to address this, they were also passing through our central midfield at will, gerrard would have helped that.

 

[SummerOnions]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36161.msg954363#msg954363 date=1254297268]
In hind-sight the selection was a mistake, however I think they are a better team than we were expecting.
I thought their central defence was fantastic, and that Jovetic is a gem.
We lost, it happens, we played very well second half , but did not get the breaks.
We just can't afford any more experiments.

regards
[/quote]

Is right.

We seemed to have the impression on the night that things would fall into place for us.