Wigan Vs Liverpool.

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=42681.msg1215788#msg1215788 date=1289429835]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215776#msg1215776 date=1289429540]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=42681.msg1215772#msg1215772 date=1289429376]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215769#msg1215769 date=1289429236]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42681.msg1215763#msg1215763 date=1289429053]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215752#msg1215752 date=1289428698]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42681.msg1215743#msg1215743 date=1289428305]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215731#msg1215731 date=1289427746]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42681.msg1215712#msg1215712 date=1289427265]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215708#msg1215708 date=1289427119]
these are our attacking players
torres
gerrard
kuyt
maxi

these are our tactics (whatever the tactics are on the day)

it's up to YOU to attempt to stop US.
in an ideal world this would be our mentality for the majority of our games, instead we look at the opposition and set up OUR team to stop THEM regardless if it negates our ability to attack ourselves. it's bullshit and has seen us lose points hand over fucking fist.
[/quote]

It's amazing that you come out with this AND you love Benitez.


[/quote]

I had my problems with rafa but the majority of times I watched games under rafa we were pretty much controlling the game but poor finishig, sloopy defending, whatever made points slip away. in what shape or form were we controlling the game today?
the reason I dislike roy so much is because the majority of time there is no rhyme or reason to his tactics, unless he WANTS the midfield to act like disjointed strangers.
[/quote]

The majority of the time under Rafa we set ourselves up to counter the oppositions strengths rather than play to our own. You idolise Rafa, and now criticise Roy for apparently doing the same.


Can you explain how our defence standing higher up the pitch means that Wigan now all of a sudden have to deal with Torres and Gerrard ?

There doesn't appear to be an ounce of logic in it.
[/quote]

* we push up the pitch
* the defense pushes the midfield closer to the attack
* the midfield becomes more compact because everyone is closer together
* passing improves
* the need to be direct (hoof) is lessended because the defenders are on the toes of the midfielders
* the strikers have more support because the midfield are closer
* the opposition have have to make decisions who to pick up rather than the easy choice of the isolated striker.

no logic? defending deep has even less logic when you consider how many of our players are negated by standing on the toes of the keeper.
obviously there is greater risk but do we want those 3 points or not? do we want to make the CL or not?
[/quote]

Our passing improves when we're closer to the opposition and we have less room to manouver in ? Really ? Why do every single team on the planet find it harder to work in the final third of the pitch then ?

Others have already pointed out the silliness in playing a defence that's vulnerable to pace higher up the pitch, in fact if you want an example of what would happen you could probably have a look at Inter Milan's game against Spurs last week. A player who was handled capably in recent weeks by Rafael, Phil Neville and some unknown Scandinavian last weekend turns into a world beater.
[/quote]

every team that holds a high line is vulnerable to the counter attack, why does ANY team hold a high line?
[/quote]Because they have defenders WITH PACE you unstoppable buffoon.
[/quote]

benitez held a high line with carra and sami so fucking come up with another excuse.
[/quote]Did he fuck.
[/quote]


he did you obviously weren't watching. THE first thing rafa did was push the team further up the pitch and make the midfield hunt in packs for the ball. if you didn't see us hold a high line you weren't paying attention.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215793#msg1215793 date=1289429952]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42681.msg1215775#msg1215775 date=1289429532]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215769#msg1215769 date=1289429236]
[
every team that holds a high line is vulnerable to the counter attack, why does ANY team hold a high line?
[/quote]

You hold a high line if you have a lot of possession, it doesn't work the other way around.
[/quote]

I will definately conceed that often the quality of the opposition will force you deeper, pretty much what happened in the second half v chelsea but we need to set out our stall FIRST to impose ourselves FIRST that why YOU get to dictate the tempo of the game.

today we conceed ground to wigan because we were scared of getting caught on the counter rather than pushing up in an attempt to kill the game. had we push up secured the 2nd and THEN put bodies behind the ball here would be less to complain about.
[/quote]

The point is that FIRST OF ALL, WE COULDN'T MAINTAIN POSSESSION TODAY, so we'd have been *MENTAL* to have done as you are saying and try to hold a high line when we weren't able to win the ball back very often.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215796#msg1215796 date=1289430081]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=42681.msg1215788#msg1215788 date=1289429835]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215776#msg1215776 date=1289429540]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=42681.msg1215772#msg1215772 date=1289429376]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215769#msg1215769 date=1289429236]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42681.msg1215763#msg1215763 date=1289429053]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215752#msg1215752 date=1289428698]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42681.msg1215743#msg1215743 date=1289428305]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215731#msg1215731 date=1289427746]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42681.msg1215712#msg1215712 date=1289427265]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215708#msg1215708 date=1289427119]
these are our attacking players
torres
gerrard
kuyt
maxi

these are our tactics (whatever the tactics are on the day)

it's up to YOU to attempt to stop US.
in an ideal world this would be our mentality for the majority of our games, instead we look at the opposition and set up OUR team to stop THEM regardless if it negates our ability to attack ourselves. it's bullshit and has seen us lose points hand over fucking fist.
[/quote]

It's amazing that you come out with this AND you love Benitez.


[/quote]

I had my problems with rafa but the majority of times I watched games under rafa we were pretty much controlling the game but poor finishig, sloopy defending, whatever made points slip away. in what shape or form were we controlling the game today?
the reason I dislike roy so much is because the majority of time there is no rhyme or reason to his tactics, unless he WANTS the midfield to act like disjointed strangers.
[/quote]

The majority of the time under Rafa we set ourselves up to counter the oppositions strengths rather than play to our own. You idolise Rafa, and now criticise Roy for apparently doing the same.


Can you explain how our defence standing higher up the pitch means that Wigan now all of a sudden have to deal with Torres and Gerrard ?

There doesn't appear to be an ounce of logic in it.
[/quote]

* we push up the pitch
* the defense pushes the midfield closer to the attack
* the midfield becomes more compact because everyone is closer together
* passing improves
* the need to be direct (hoof) is lessended because the defenders are on the toes of the midfielders
* the strikers have more support because the midfield are closer
* the opposition have have to make decisions who to pick up rather than the easy choice of the isolated striker.

no logic? defending deep has even less logic when you consider how many of our players are negated by standing on the toes of the keeper.
obviously there is greater risk but do we want those 3 points or not? do we want to make the CL or not?
[/quote]

Our passing improves when we're closer to the opposition and we have less room to manouver in ? Really ? Why do every single team on the planet find it harder to work in the final third of the pitch then ?

Others have already pointed out the silliness in playing a defence that's vulnerable to pace higher up the pitch, in fact if you want an example of what would happen you could probably have a look at Inter Milan's game against Spurs last week. A player who was handled capably in recent weeks by Rafael, Phil Neville and some unknown Scandinavian last weekend turns into a world beater.
[/quote]

every team that holds a high line is vulnerable to the counter attack, why does ANY team hold a high line?
[/quote]Because they have defenders WITH PACE you unstoppable buffoon.
[/quote]

benitez held a high line with carra and sami so fucking come up with another excuse.
[/quote]Did he fuck.
[/quote]


he did you obviously weren't watching. THE first thing rafa did was push the team further up the pitch and make the midfield hunt in packs for the ball. if you didn't see us hold a high line you weren't paying attention.
[/quote]

That was back in 2006

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42681.msg1215795#msg1215795 date=1289430003]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=42681.msg1215788#msg1215788 date=1289429835]
Did he fuck.
[/quote]

Yeah, he definitely did - for long stretches we held a high line under Rafa and our offside trap was extremely tight.

We had Alonso dictating the majority of the distribution, and therefore possession, and we were very, very good at getting the ball back when we'd lost it.

Different kettle of fish than now, absolutely, but Rafa had us drilled to play that way a few years ago.
[/quote]Not when Hyppia was as slow as carra is now he didnt. And Hyppia was 10 times the defender Skrtel is and far better at reading the game (first yard in the head and all that jazz)
Carragher and Skrtel are slow as fuck.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42681.msg1215798#msg1215798 date=1289430186]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215793#msg1215793 date=1289429952]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42681.msg1215775#msg1215775 date=1289429532]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215769#msg1215769 date=1289429236]
[
every team that holds a high line is vulnerable to the counter attack, why does ANY team hold a high line?
[/quote]

You hold a high line if you have a lot of possession, it doesn't work the other way around.
[/quote]

I will definately conceed that often the quality of the opposition will force you deeper, pretty much what happened in the second half v chelsea but we need to set out our stall FIRST to impose ourselves FIRST that why YOU get to dictate the tempo of the game.

today we conceed ground to wigan because we were scared of getting caught on the counter rather than pushing up in an attempt to kill the game. had we push up secured the 2nd and THEN put bodies behind the ball here would be less to complain about.
[/quote]

The point is that FIRST OF ALL, WE COULDN'T MAINTAIN POSSESSION TODAY, so we'd have been *MENTAL* to have done as you are saying and try to hold a high line when we weren't able to win the ball back very often.
[/quote]He just will never see it.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42681.msg1215798#msg1215798 date=1289430186]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215793#msg1215793 date=1289429952]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42681.msg1215775#msg1215775 date=1289429532]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215769#msg1215769 date=1289429236]
[
every team that holds a high line is vulnerable to the counter attack, why does ANY team hold a high line?
[/quote]

You hold a high line if you have a lot of possession, it doesn't work the other way around.
[/quote]

I will definately conceed that often the quality of the opposition will force you deeper, pretty much what happened in the second half v chelsea but we need to set out our stall FIRST to impose ourselves FIRST that why YOU get to dictate the tempo of the game.

today we conceed ground to wigan because we were scared of getting caught on the counter rather than pushing up in an attempt to kill the game. had we push up secured the 2nd and THEN put bodies behind the ball here would be less to complain about.
[/quote]

The point is that FIRST OF ALL, WE COULDN'T MAINTAIN POSSESSION TODAY, so we'd have been *MENTAL* to have done as you are saying and try to hold a high line when we weren't able to win the ball back very often.
[/quote]

I didn't see the first part of the match where we apparantly dominated what made us collectively drop deeper? something must have changed.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215803#msg1215803 date=1289430345]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42681.msg1215798#msg1215798 date=1289430186]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215793#msg1215793 date=1289429952]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42681.msg1215775#msg1215775 date=1289429532]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215769#msg1215769 date=1289429236]
[
every team that holds a high line is vulnerable to the counter attack, why does ANY team hold a high line?
[/quote]

You hold a high line if you have a lot of possession, it doesn't work the other way around.
[/quote]

I will definately conceed that often the quality of the opposition will force you deeper, pretty much what happened in the second half v chelsea but we need to set out our stall FIRST to impose ourselves FIRST that why YOU get to dictate the tempo of the game.

today we conceed ground to wigan because we were scared of getting caught on the counter rather than pushing up in an attempt to kill the game. had we push up secured the 2nd and THEN put bodies behind the ball here would be less to complain about.
[/quote]

The point is that FIRST OF ALL, WE COULDN'T MAINTAIN POSSESSION TODAY, so we'd have been *MENTAL* to have done as you are saying and try to hold a high line when we weren't able to win the ball back very often.
[/quote]

I didn't see the first part of the match where we apparantly dominated what made us collectively drop deeper? something must have changed.
[/quote]Yes we *passed worse*

 

[Fabio]

This thread is awesome. Can we rename it to custard and cages?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

"Oooh, it's getting a bit chilly. Where's my hat? Ahhhh. That's better. C'mon boys, with a bit of effort we'll reach the half way line by dawn."

 

[spider-Neil]

the bottom line is this:

if we push up the pitch we'll improve as an attacking force but will be vulnerable to the counter attack.

isn't 3 points worth the risk?
defending deep and conceeding possession has gained us what exactly?
I'm done, I've got x-men to watch.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=42681.msg1215802#msg1215802 date=1289430274]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42681.msg1215798#msg1215798 date=1289430186]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215793#msg1215793 date=1289429952]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42681.msg1215775#msg1215775 date=1289429532]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215769#msg1215769 date=1289429236]
[
every team that holds a high line is vulnerable to the counter attack, why does ANY team hold a high line?
[/quote]

You hold a high line if you have a lot of possession, it doesn't work the other way around.
[/quote]

I will definately conceed that often the quality of the opposition will force you deeper, pretty much what happened in the second half v chelsea but we need to set out our stall FIRST to impose ourselves FIRST that why YOU get to dictate the tempo of the game.

today we conceed ground to wigan because we were scared of getting caught on the counter rather than pushing up in an attempt to kill the game. had we push up secured the 2nd and THEN put bodies behind the ball here would be less to complain about.
[/quote]

The point is that FIRST OF ALL, WE COULDN'T MAINTAIN POSSESSION TODAY, so we'd have been *MENTAL* to have done as you are saying and try to hold a high line when we weren't able to win the ball back very often.
[/quote]He just will never see it.
[/quote]See. He is to massive fucking glaringly obvious points what Arsene Wenger is to contoversial penalty decisions.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215809#msg1215809 date=1289430620]
the bottom line is this:

if we push up the pitch we'll improve as an attacking force but will be vulnerable to the counter attack.

isn't 3 points worth the risk?

[/quote]

I'll let you know at the end of the season.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=42681.msg1215811#msg1215811 date=1289430697]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215809#msg1215809 date=1289430620]
the bottom line is this:

if we push up the pitch we'll improve as an attacking force but will be vulnerable to the counter attack.

isn't 3 points worth the risk?

[/quote]

I'll let you know at the end of the season.
[/quote]

HA!

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215812#msg1215812 date=1289430722]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=42681.msg1215811#msg1215811 date=1289430697]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215809#msg1215809 date=1289430620]
the bottom line is this:

if we push up the pitch we'll improve as an attacking force but will be vulnerable to the counter attack.

isn't 3 points worth the risk?

[/quote]

I'll let you know at the end of the season.
[/quote]

HA!
[/quote]Later Neil.
x

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=42681.msg1215813#msg1215813 date=1289430776]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215812#msg1215812 date=1289430722]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=42681.msg1215811#msg1215811 date=1289430697]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215809#msg1215809 date=1289430620]
the bottom line is this:

if we push up the pitch we'll improve as an attacking force but will be vulnerable to the counter attack.

isn't 3 points worth the risk?

[/quote]

I'll let you know at the end of the season.
[/quote]

HA!
[/quote]Later Neil.
x
[/quote]

X

🙂

 

[ILD]

Ye both have a point. Neil yes we need to press the opposition but that can be done without having a high line of defence. Having a higher line of defence won't automatically improve our play, our players won't suddenly become sharper and we won't move the ball more efficiently. However pressing the opposition higher up the pitch will lead to us winning the ball back and hurting them in dangerous positions. Tonight we did neither, that is down to Roy's tactics and fatigue. Also, Wigan pressed us and forced us to play the ball early and long thus allowing them to regain possession.

We we're shit and allowed them onto us. Roy's subs we're terrible, especially Poulsen for Kuyt and didn't take our chances. To sum up, shit all round.

 

[Rosco]

fuck off with your common sense and perspective ILD

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215809#msg1215809 date=1289430620]
if we push up the pitch we'll improve as an attacking force but will be vulnerable to the counter attack.
[/quote]

This isn't necessarily the case, but either way, you have to have the ball first, and that was the problem today.

Assuming though, that we have a lot of the ball, and want to press high... in order to make it really work, we need technical clever players in the final third, or we'll keep hitting the wall.

And we haven't really got many of those anyway. Or any.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42681.msg1215816#msg1215816 date=1289431086]
fuck off with your common sense and perspective ILD
[/quote]

Better than your shit stirring. How did no one bite at "Tactics is a load of overrated bollox anyway."

Hahahaha

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I felt a bit sorry for Lucas tonight. The boy played out of his skin against Chelsea and has started to show what we know he is capable of. He must have been knackered tonight. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He'll rock against Stoke.

 

[El Pistolero]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=42681.msg1215821#msg1215821 date=1289432033]
I felt a bit sorry for Lucas tonight. The boy played out of his skin against Chelsea and has started to show what we know he is capable of. He must have been knackered tonight. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He'll rock against Stoke.
[/quote]

I had to do a double take then, then I seen the name.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=42681.msg1215821#msg1215821 date=1289432033]
I felt a bit sorry for Lucas tonight. The boy played out of his skin against Chelsea and has started to show what we know he is capable of. He must have been knackered tonight. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He'll rock against Stoke.
[/quote]

that was odd. I read that and then saw the 'brenden eyes' and was like '??!!!' and then saw it was sheik. ha ha.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Redshrek link=topic=42681.msg1215822#msg1215822 date=1289432293]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=42681.msg1215821#msg1215821 date=1289432033]
I felt a bit sorry for Lucas tonight. The boy played out of his skin against Chelsea and has started to show what we know he is capable of. He must have been knackered tonight. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He'll rock against Stoke.
[/quote]


I had to do a double take then, then I seen the name.
[/quote]

ha ha snap ;D

 

[Friend no. 2]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215824#msg1215824 date=1289432365]
[quote author=Redshrek link=topic=42681.msg1215822#msg1215822 date=1289432293]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=42681.msg1215821#msg1215821 date=1289432033]
I felt a bit sorry for Lucas tonight. The boy played out of his skin against Chelsea and has started to show what we know he is capable of. He must have been knackered tonight. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He'll rock against Stoke.
[/quote]


I had to do a double take then, then I seen the name.
[/quote]

ha ha snap ;D

[/quote]

Triple snap.

 

[ILD]

Hahahaha

 

[Jack D Rips]

Meireles was sick by the way. Id say he felt twice as sick when he saw Poulsen replacing him.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=42681.msg1215831#msg1215831 date=1289433842]
Meireles was sick by the way. Id say he felt twice as sick when he saw Poulsen replacing him.
[/quote]

Shelvey replaced him Jack. Poulsen replaced Kuyt.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215809#msg1215809 date=1289430620]
the bottom line is this:

if we push up the pitch we'll improve as an attacking force but will be vulnerable to the counter attack.

isn't 3 points worth the risk?
defending deep and conceeding possession has gained us what exactly?
I'm done, I've got x-men to watch.
[/quote]

Which one?

The shit one, the not so shit one with Colossus or the soso one with the mutant fish?

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215774#msg1215774 date=1289429465]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=42681.msg1215767#msg1215767 date=1289429211]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215760#msg1215760 date=1289428953]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=42681.msg1215756#msg1215756 date=1289428783]
*Passing improves*






HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
[/quote]

if your team mates are 5 years away from you rather than 20 it is going to be easier find them with a pass. hilarious that you find the obvious funny.
[/quote]So you think that in 45 metres congested with 21 players in it our players who for 90 minutes barely made a pass between them would suddenly find it easier than passing in a hundred metre space with no congestion?
Thats a laughable premise.

And let me ask you what exactly happens in your scenario when one (unlikely as this is given how *passing has improved*) of our lads *shockingly* missplaces a pass and the midlielder of wigan flicks the ball over our *high* backline into the 30 yards of space before our goal?
I'll give you a lil ole pop quiz.
Who gets to that ball first? N'zogbia or Carragher?

I'd fucking LOVE to play your team at football.

'Right lads, move up the pitch en masse and....errr.........pass better.'
[/quote]

I feel myself getting angry now,

WE HELD A HIGH LINE AT THE WEEKEND AND PICKED OUT TEAM MATES FOR FUN
so what the fucking HELL are you going on about?!! you are fucking arguing for the sake of arguing. saying we will get caught on the counter attack is valid, saying we wont be able to pass because the midfield will be congested is stupid, why wasn't this a problem at the weekend?!!
[/quote]

We were passing well at the weekend; wewerent passing well yesterday.

That's probably whywe couldnt keep the high line.

HOwever we should have at least kept them under pressure as that would have allowed us to keep the ball better and regain possession

Harder for them to score if they don't have the ball.

Inept tactics from Hodgson, but I'd say the biggest factor yesterday was fatigue; which was why we kept inviting them on.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42681.msg1215864#msg1215864 date=1289459914]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42681.msg1215809#msg1215809 date=1289430620]
the bottom line is this:

if we push up the pitch we'll improve as an attacking force but will be vulnerable to the counter attack.

isn't 3 points worth the risk?
defending deep and conceeding possession has gained us what exactly?
I'm done, I've got x-men to watch.
[/quote]

Which one?

The shit one, the not so shit one with Colossus or the soso one with the mutant fish?
[/quote]

wolverine and the xmen, blu ray. looks freaking amazing.