Thommo speaks out

[KopKing]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39490.msg1076389#msg1076389 date=1269529120]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076384#msg1076384 date=1269528595]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076306#msg1076306 date=1269519796]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=39490.msg1076301#msg1076301 date=1269519252]
To be fair to Tommo, ignore Rebel and his fuckwittery, and look at what he's trying to do here.

Is he looking at a fair and balanced view regarding the trials and tribulations of our current season in an even handed manner? No.

What he's doing is focussing some attention back on the ownership issue rather than the gang fuck that is our performance on the pitch this season - and I'm glad he is too.

Perfect world - owners fuck off, Rafa takes a position somewhere else that will be better for his mental state, new owners come in and provide sustainable financial backin got new manager.
[/quote]I wouldn't be against that. I think the point for me is that regardless of who was running the club and how much money was available, I would still want Rafa to go as I have utterly no faith in him spending 100m wisely.
And I'm really dissappointed that Pacheco, Dalle Valle, Eccleston etc havnt been given a chance this year.
Yes ideally new owners the whole shebang but the minimum expectation has to be that the leader of a team that has fallen apart falls on his sword.
[/quote]

Are you for real? Are you seriously disappointed that Rafa hasn't thrown in untried, untested, inexperienced professional kids?

[/quote]

Show some perspective. The team on the pitch each week isn't performing. Posters like yourself who back Rafa would probably say that's down to the players, so what do we do to rectify that? A player like Pacheco comes in, puts in a brilliant cameo and then is nowhere to be seen again. How is that 'good' management? He should be encouraging youngsters with appearances, then when they make the most of that appearance, the manager should build on that by giving them further opportunities, he hasn't.

No one is saying we're in a position to throw in rookies week in week out, but when the team is under-performing, and especially when short on numbers anyway, players on the fringe of things, and in our case that means youngsters like Pacheco, should be getting more chances.


[/quote]

Pacheco has had appearances so has Ecclestone. You don't get playing time unless its earned and those guys have to earn a slot. Ngog has had appearances, scored and made a few goals too, he still gets derided. Insua is a young player, look at how he is regarded here. Throwing in kids when the team is struggling is never a good idea particularly when they are at a stage where confidence is fragile. God only knows what Pacheco's 'nickname' would be if he were playing regularly.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076402#msg1076402 date=1269529717]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39490.msg1076389#msg1076389 date=1269529120]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076384#msg1076384 date=1269528595]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076306#msg1076306 date=1269519796]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=39490.msg1076301#msg1076301 date=1269519252]
To be fair to Tommo, ignore Rebel and his fuckwittery, and look at what he's trying to do here.

Is he looking at a fair and balanced view regarding the trials and tribulations of our current season in an even handed manner? No.

What he's doing is focussing some attention back on the ownership issue rather than the gang fuck that is our performance on the pitch this season - and I'm glad he is too.

Perfect world - owners fuck off, Rafa takes a position somewhere else that will be better for his mental state, new owners come in and provide sustainable financial backin got new manager.
[/quote]I wouldn't be against that. I think the point for me is that regardless of who was running the club and how much money was available, I would still want Rafa to go as I have utterly no faith in him spending 100m wisely.
And I'm really dissappointed that Pacheco, Dalle Valle, Eccleston etc havnt been given a chance this year.
Yes ideally new owners the whole shebang but the minimum expectation has to be that the leader of a team that has fallen apart falls on his sword.
[/quote]

Are you for real? Are you seriously disappointed that Rafa hasn't thrown in untried, untested, inexperienced professional kids?

[/quote]

Show some perspective. The team on the pitch each week isn't performing. Posters like yourself who back Rafa would probably say that's down to the players, so what do we do to rectify that? A player like Pacheco comes in, puts in a brilliant cameo and then is nowhere to be seen again. How is that 'good' management? He should be encouraging youngsters with appearances, then when they make the most of that appearance, the manager should build on that by giving them further opportunities, he hasn't.

No one is saying we're in a position to throw in rookies week in week out, but when the team is under-performing, and especially when short on numbers anyway, players on the fringe of things, and in our case that means youngsters like Pacheco, should be getting more chances.


[/quote]

Pacheco has had appearances so has Ecclestone. You don't get playing time unless its earned and those guys have to earn a slot. Ngog has had appearances, scored and made a few goals too, he still gets derided. Insua is a young player, look at how he is regarded here. Throwing in kids when the team is struggling is never a good idea particularly when they are at a stage where confidence is fragile. God only knows what Pacheco's 'nickname' would be if he were playing regularlyea.
[/quote]

Pacheco has shown he's more than good enough to at least be given further chances in this team, especially given our dire need of creativity. However it hasn't been forthcoming. He hardly looks the mentally fragile fawn you make him out to be. Just a young players snapping at the bit to succeed here.

Insua started pretty well last year and generally impressed, although I and a few others remained sceptical. Since then he's crashed and burnt and needs dropping immediately.

Also, as if players/managers are aware what they're being called on an Internet forum. As if this affect their selection in any way at all.

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39490.msg1076404#msg1076404 date=1269529977]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076402#msg1076402 date=1269529717]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39490.msg1076389#msg1076389 date=1269529120]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076384#msg1076384 date=1269528595]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076306#msg1076306 date=1269519796]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=39490.msg1076301#msg1076301 date=1269519252]
To be fair to Tommo, ignore Rebel and his fuckwittery, and look at what he's trying to do here.

Is he looking at a fair and balanced view regarding the trials and tribulations of our current season in an even handed manner? No.

What he's doing is focussing some attention back on the ownership issue rather than the gang fuck that is our performance on the pitch this season - and I'm glad he is too.

Perfect world - owners fuck off, Rafa takes a position somewhere else that will be better for his mental state, new owners come in and provide sustainable financial backin got new manager.
[/quote]I wouldn't be against that. I think the point for me is that regardless of who was running the club and how much money was available, I would still want Rafa to go as I have utterly no faith in him spending 100m wisely.
And I'm really dissappointed that Pacheco, Dalle Valle, Eccleston etc havnt been given a chance this year.
Yes ideally new owners the whole shebang but the minimum expectation has to be that the leader of a team that has fallen apart falls on his sword.
[/quote]

Are you for real? Are you seriously disappointed that Rafa hasn't thrown in untried, untested, inexperienced professional kids?

[/quote]

Show some perspective. The team on the pitch each week isn't performing. Posters like yourself who back Rafa would probably say that's down to the players, so what do we do to rectify that? A player like Pacheco comes in, puts in a brilliant cameo and then is nowhere to be seen again. How is that 'good' management? He should be encouraging youngsters with appearances, then when they make the most of that appearance, the manager should build on that by giving them further opportunities, he hasn't.

No one is saying we're in a position to throw in rookies week in week out, but when the team is under-performing, and especially when short on numbers anyway, players on the fringe of things, and in our case that means youngsters like Pacheco, should be getting more chances.


[/quote]

Pacheco has had appearances so has Ecclestone. You don't get playing time unless its earned and those guys have to earn a slot. Ngog has had appearances, scored and made a few goals too, he still gets derided. Insua is a young player, look at how he is regarded here. Throwing in kids when the team is struggling is never a good idea particularly when they are at a stage where confidence is fragile. God only knows what Pacheco's 'nickname' would be if he were playing regularlyea.
[/quote]

Pacheco has shown he's more than good enough to at least be given further chances in this team, especially given our dire need of creativity. However it hasn't been forthcoming. He hardly looks the mentally fragile fawn you make him out to be. Just a young players snapping at the bit to succeed here.

Insua started pretty well last year and generally impressed, although I and a few others remained sceptical. Since then he's crashed and burnt and needs dropping immediately.

Also, as if players/managers are aware what they're being called on an Internet forum. As if this affect their selection in any way at all.
[/quote]

Just because you have that opinion of Pacheco, does not make it fact. You don't seem him in training every day. He's constantly called up by his national team for get togethers etc and also he's physically not yet strong enough. I'm not suggesting his a mentally fragile anything, but he's a young kid at Liverpool, where experienced professionals have been crushed by the weight of expectation.

The point I'm making about the name calling is about the fact that fans have little patience for young players and don't give them the leeway that should be afforded to them. I am aware that team selection isn't influenced by posters off this or any other forum. Thanks for pointing out that particularly obvious point.

 

[manwithnoname]

Headers, curb your hysterical delirium

There's not one poster on here that blames Benitez for everything, and absolves S&W completely.

Benitez, the owners, the players.

They have all let Liverpool down.

 

[doctor_mac]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076402#msg1076402 date=1269529717]
God only knows what Pacheco's 'nickname' would be if he were playing regularly.
[/quote]

Patheco, obviously.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39490.msg1076416#msg1076416 date=1269531129]
Headers, curb your hysterical delirium

There's not one poster on here that blames Benitez for everything, and absolves S&W completely.

Benitez, the owners, the players.

They have all let Liverpool down.
[/quote]

sammy lee is pretty blameless 🙂

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076384#msg1076384 date=1269528595]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076306#msg1076306 date=1269519796]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=39490.msg1076301#msg1076301 date=1269519252]
To be fair to Tommo, ignore Rebel and his fuckwittery, and look at what he's trying to do here.

Is he looking at a fair and balanced view regarding the trials and tribulations of our current season in an even handed manner? No.

What he's doing is focussing some attention back on the ownership issue rather than the gang fuck that is our performance on the pitch this season - and I'm glad he is too.

Perfect world - owners fuck off, Rafa takes a position somewhere else that will be better for his mental state, new owners come in and provide sustainable financial backin got new manager.
[/quote]I wouldn't be against that. I think the point for me is that regardless of who was running the club and how much money was available, I would still want Rafa to go as I have utterly no faith in him spending 100m wisely.
And I'm really dissappointed that Pacheco, Dalle Valle, Eccleston etc havnt been given a chance this year.
Yes ideally new owners the whole shebang but the minimum expectation has to be that the leader of a team that has fallen apart falls on his sword.
[/quote]

Are you for real? Are you seriously disappointed that Rafa hasn't thrown in untried, untested, inexperienced professional kids?

[/quote]As oppossed to what? Players we KNOW through trying and testing them that they aren't good enough! Yes.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076411#msg1076411 date=1269530545]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39490.msg1076404#msg1076404 date=1269529977]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076402#msg1076402 date=1269529717]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39490.msg1076389#msg1076389 date=1269529120]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076384#msg1076384 date=1269528595]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076306#msg1076306 date=1269519796]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=39490.msg1076301#msg1076301 date=1269519252]
To be fair to Tommo, ignore Rebel and his fuckwittery, and look at what he's trying to do here.

Is he looking at a fair and balanced view regarding the trials and tribulations of our current season in an even handed manner? No.

What he's doing is focussing some attention back on the ownership issue rather than the gang fuck that is our performance on the pitch this season - and I'm glad he is too.

Perfect world - owners fuck off, Rafa takes a position somewhere else that will be better for his mental state, new owners come in and provide sustainable financial backin got new manager.
[/quote]I wouldn't be against that. I think the point for me is that regardless of who was running the club and how much money was available, I would still want Rafa to go as I have utterly no faith in him spending 100m wisely.
And I'm really dissappointed that Pacheco, Dalle Valle, Eccleston etc havnt been given a chance this year.
Yes ideally new owners the whole shebang but the minimum expectation has to be that the leader of a team that has fallen apart falls on his sword.
[/quote]

Are you for real? Are you seriously disappointed that Rafa hasn't thrown in untried, untested, inexperienced professional kids?

[/quote]

Show some perspective. The team on the pitch each week isn't performing. Posters like yourself who back Rafa would probably say that's down to the players, so what do we do to rectify that? A player like Pacheco comes in, puts in a brilliant cameo and then is nowhere to be seen again. How is that 'good' management? He should be encouraging youngsters with appearances, then when they make the most of that appearance, the manager should build on that by giving them further opportunities, he hasn't.

No one is saying we're in a position to throw in rookies week in week out, but when the team is under-performing, and especially when short on numbers anyway, players on the fringe of things, and in our case that means youngsters like Pacheco, should be getting more chances.


[/quote]

Pacheco has had appearances so has Ecclestone. You don't get playing time unless its earned and those guys have to earn a slot. Ngog has had appearances, scored and made a few goals too, he still gets derided. Insua is a young player, look at how he is regarded here. Throwing in kids when the team is struggling is never a good idea particularly when they are at a stage where confidence is fragile. God only knows what Pacheco's 'nickname' would be if he were playing regularlyea.
[/quote]

Pacheco has shown he's more than good enough to at least be given further chances in this team, especially given our dire need of creativity. However it hasn't been forthcoming. He hardly looks the mentally fragile fawn you make him out to be. Just a young players snapping at the bit to succeed here.

Insua started pretty well last year and generally impressed, although I and a few others remained sceptical. Since then he's crashed and burnt and needs dropping immediately.

Also, as if players/managers are aware what they're being called on an Internet forum. As if this affect their selection in any way at all.
[/quote]

Just because you have that opinion of Pacheco, does not make it fact. You don't seem him in training every day. He's constantly called up by his national team for get togethers etc and also he's physically not yet strong enough. I'm not suggesting his a mentally fragile anything, but he's a young kid at Liverpool, where experienced professionals have been crushed by the weight of expectation.

The point I'm making about the name calling is about the fact that fans have little patience for young players and don't give them the leeway that should be afforded to them. I am aware that team selection isn't influenced by posters off this or any other forum. Thanks for pointing out that particularly obvious point.
[/quote]

No problem

I'll let you know if he starts the next match anyway.

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076427#msg1076427 date=1269531716]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076384#msg1076384 date=1269528595]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076306#msg1076306 date=1269519796]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=39490.msg1076301#msg1076301 date=1269519252]
To be fair to Tommo, ignore Rebel and his fuckwittery, and look at what he's trying to do here.

Is he looking at a fair and balanced view regarding the trials and tribulations of our current season in an even handed manner? No.

What he's doing is focussing some attention back on the ownership issue rather than the gang fuck that is our performance on the pitch this season - and I'm glad he is too.

Perfect world - owners fuck off, Rafa takes a position somewhere else that will be better for his mental state, new owners come in and provide sustainable financial backin got new manager.
[/quote]I wouldn't be against that. I think the point for me is that regardless of who was running the club and how much money was available, I would still want Rafa to go as I have utterly no faith in him spending 100m wisely.
And I'm really dissappointed that Pacheco, Dalle Valle, Eccleston etc havnt been given a chance this year.
Yes ideally new owners the whole shebang but the minimum expectation has to be that the leader of a team that has fallen apart falls on his sword.
[/quote]

Are you for real? Are you seriously disappointed that Rafa hasn't thrown in untried, untested, inexperienced professional kids?

[/quote]As oppossed to what? Players we KNOW through trying and testing them that they aren't good enough! Yes.
[/quote]

But these are kids! Teenagers! They should be allowed to develop in their own time, not as a foolhardy, desperate measure because we're having a poor season.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076430#msg1076430 date=1269531905]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076427#msg1076427 date=1269531716]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076384#msg1076384 date=1269528595]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076306#msg1076306 date=1269519796]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=39490.msg1076301#msg1076301 date=1269519252]
To be fair to Tommo, ignore Rebel and his fuckwittery, and look at what he's trying to do here.

Is he looking at a fair and balanced view regarding the trials and tribulations of our current season in an even handed manner? No.

What he's doing is focussing some attention back on the ownership issue rather than the gang fuck that is our performance on the pitch this season - and I'm glad he is too.

Perfect world - owners fuck off, Rafa takes a position somewhere else that will be better for his mental state, new owners come in and provide sustainable financial backin got new manager.
[/quote]I wouldn't be against that. I think the point for me is that regardless of who was running the club and how much money was available, I would still want Rafa to go as I have utterly no faith in him spending 100m wisely.
And I'm really dissappointed that Pacheco, Dalle Valle, Eccleston etc havnt been given a chance this year.
Yes ideally new owners the whole shebang but the minimum expectation has to be that the leader of a team that has fallen apart falls on his sword.
[/quote]

Are you for real? Are you seriously disappointed that Rafa hasn't thrown in untried, untested, inexperienced professional kids?

[/quote]As oppossed to what? Players we KNOW through trying and testing them that they aren't good enough! Yes.
[/quote]

But these are kids! Teenagers! They should be allowed to develop in their own time, not as a foolhardy, desperate measure because we're having a poor season.
[/quote]I don't expect them to have salvaged our season. But if they had some playing time this season then perhaps they would hit the ground running next season. Perhaps.
Anyway I don't want to argue about it. You asked if I was serious. Yes I am. Pacheco and some of the other kids should have been benched and blooded this season.

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076430#msg1076430 date=1269531905]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076427#msg1076427 date=1269531716]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076384#msg1076384 date=1269528595]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076306#msg1076306 date=1269519796]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=39490.msg1076301#msg1076301 date=1269519252]
To be fair to Tommo, ignore Rebel and his fuckwittery, and look at what he's trying to do here.

Is he looking at a fair and balanced view regarding the trials and tribulations of our current season in an even handed manner? No.

What he's doing is focussing some attention back on the ownership issue rather than the gang fuck that is our performance on the pitch this season - and I'm glad he is too.

Perfect world - owners fuck off, Rafa takes a position somewhere else that will be better for his mental state, new owners come in and provide sustainable financial backin got new manager.
[/quote]I wouldn't be against that. I think the point for me is that regardless of who was running the club and how much money was available, I would still want Rafa to go as I have utterly no faith in him spending 100m wisely.
And I'm really dissappointed that Pacheco, Dalle Valle, Eccleston etc havnt been given a chance this year.
Yes ideally new owners the whole shebang but the minimum expectation has to be that the leader of a team that has fallen apart falls on his sword.
[/quote]

Are you for real? Are you seriously disappointed that Rafa hasn't thrown in untried, untested, inexperienced professional kids?

[/quote]As oppossed to what? Players we KNOW through trying and testing them that they aren't good enough! Yes.
[/quote]

But these are kids! Teenagers! They should be allowed to develop in their own time, not as a foolhardy, desperate measure because we're having a poor season.
[/quote]

I hear that, I look forward to seeing Pacheco myself, I think he will be a special player and could be a worthy successor to Steven Gerrard. Already he has a good understanding with El Nino.

 

[Vlads Quiff]

Two things.....Firstly Thommo. Thommo is a great lad and if you cut him in half it would say Liverpool all the way through, and he is saying things for the right reasons, and he has some valid points, however if we had built our stadium before Arsenal's it would have been the Parry / Moores stadium which was pointless and lacking imagination and ambition. Secondly had we started building the re-vamped one, which the original design is ambitious and fantastic, when the opportunity arose we would have really been in the shite as it was just before the recession struck, which in case anyone has missed it fucked up the owners a bit, along with almost everyone else (apart from City). As has been said nobody places the whole blame at Benitez door and it is just a matter of contributory negligence between him and the owners, as I said I think the Owners have some excuses for being fucked up financially, I am not sure Rafa can blame that on his decision making time and time again.

Secondly, this bit about the kids, it does not matter the fuck if they are teenagers or not , if they are good enough they are old enough and all the top players this country has produced show it when they are kids, Fowler , Gerrard , Owen, McManaman, Rooney there are loads who made appearances at 16 and 17, Rodwell will go on from there too.
The only reason any of them got the chance is because they were given it, and you don't know how good anyone is until you throw them in at the deep end.
Our team has been shite this season and they couldn't have done any worse. No one is saying play them away at United, but there have been enough opportunities to give em a crack.
N'gog does not come into this youth category as he was brought as a first team player for quite a bit of money and therefore our expectations are higher.

regards

 

[manwithnoname]

Plus he's shit

 

[Jürgen4PM]

I must admit, I would have liked to of seen Pacheco play more.

 

[Stulikesdrums]

......

 

[Stulikesdrums]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39490.msg1076439#msg1076439 date=1269533562]
I must admit, I would have liked to of seen Pacheco play more.
[/quote]

Yeah, me too.
I hope he doesn't get disheartened, he looks like he could be a good squad player for us at the very least.

 

[peekay]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076306#msg1076306 date=1269519796]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=39490.msg1076301#msg1076301 date=1269519252]
To be fair to Tommo, ignore Rebel and his fuckwittery, and look at what he's trying to do here.

Is he looking at a fair and balanced view regarding the trials and tribulations of our current season in an even handed manner? No.

What he's doing is focussing some attention back on the ownership issue rather than the gang fuck that is our performance on the pitch this season - and I'm glad he is too.

Perfect world - owners fuck off, Rafa takes a position somewhere else that will be better for his mental state, new owners come in and provide sustainable financial backin got new manager.
[/quote]I wouldn't be against that. I think the point for me is that regardless of who was running the club and how much money was available, I would still want Rafa to go as I have utterly no faith in him spending 100m wisely.
And I'm really dissappointed that Pacheco, Dalle Valle, Eccleston etc havnt been given a chance this year.
Yes ideally new owners the whole shebang but the minimum expectation has to be that the leader of a team that has fallen apart falls on his sword.
[/quote]

I dont disagree with your general sentiment but the examples you use are atrocious. You are disappointed that Dalle Valle - injured for half a season and just now stepping up to the reserves level and Eccleston - who is having a fairly average season at Huddersfield Town have not been given chances. Both are very good talents I agree - but way way off from making the stepup to the first team squad.

Pacheco - I am a bit disappointed that he has not been given enough opportunities - but he was away with Spain U 19 or injured during Carling Cup ties.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Stu link=topic=39490.msg1076443#msg1076443 date=1269534010]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39490.msg1076439#msg1076439 date=1269533562]
I must admit, I would have liked to of seen Pacheco play more.
[/quote]

Yeah, me too.
I hope he doesn't get disheartened, he looks like he could be a good squad player for us at the very least.
[/quote]

Well with Reira all set to leave, that should give him a nice little boost!

I've always had a soft spot for Pacheco since his performances in pre-season a few years back. Hopefully he'll make the break through, because like you i think he could be very useful mate.

 

[Stulikesdrums]

I remember Paul Anderson having a superb pre-season for us 2 or 3 years back. Scored a couple too I think. He came to nothing like they all do. Pacheco just seems to have that little touch of class about him though. I know it usually spells the end for our 'starlets' but I would to see him go on loan to another Premier League club like Wilshere has. Get some games at the a good level and see where we stand.

 

[KopKing]

I remember the likes of Fowler & McManaman getting their chances due to circumstances, injuries and European qualification rulings rather than just their ability, and they took their chances.

Rooney was probably born built like a brick shithouse, so didn't have issues like not being physically up to the task. If our youngsters are good enough, they'll make it, pure and simple.

Ngog was bought as a teenager for £1.5m, I don't regard that as big money especially when Wenger is bringing them in at £4m+. Introducing them when we are struggling for form, to turn the season around, smacks of desperation and it wouldn't work anyway.

 

[manwithnoname]

There may have been circumstances with macca, but the likes of Gerrard, Fowler, Owen played because they were incredible talents and age was irrelevant.

Not too sure if this debate is about whether Benitez would have played them, given his nature, or whether we are saying Patches and co simply aren't that good.

Or both

Or neither?

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39490.msg1076455#msg1076455 date=1269535808]
There may have been circumstances with macca, but the likes of Gerrard, Fowler, Owen played because they were incredible talents and age was irrelevant.

Not too sure if this debate is about whether Benitez would have played them, given his nature, or whether we are saying Patches and co simply aren't that good.

Or both

Or neither?
[/quote]

Out of all of them, Pacheco stands out, Kelly too. They'll make it, they are extremely talented and have proved themselves even now, to a degree. Some players take longer, for example, Carra who was no stand out talent as a young player, but has proved himself over time. I'm particularly curious about Nemeth. He knows where the back of the net is, but is not blessed with pace.

 

[singlerider]

The reason we should play the kids is that this season is fucked anyway and we've got nothing left to lose.

Next year we will have, and so obiously they will get very little playing time.

Unless . . . they get a few good games now, show they're worth a punt and earn their place. Otherwise it's just a self-defeating cycle that teenagers (or graduates) up and down the country are all too familiar with:

Can't get a job - got no experience

Can't get experience - got no job

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=39490.msg1076458#msg1076458 date=1269536721]
The reason we should play the kids is that this season is fucked anyway and we've got nothing left to lose.

Next year we will have, and so obiously they will get very little playing time.

Unless . . . they get a few good games now, show they're worth a punt and earn their place. Otherwise it's just a self-defeating cycle that teenagers (or graduates) up and down the country are all too familiar with:

Can't get a job - got no experience

Can't get experience - got no job
[/quote]

While our neighbours across the park have them chomping at the bit for a first team place, they give them a chance AND are now in a fairly healthy position in the league, just three points behind us, despite all the money spent.

I know they're in more of a position to give youngsters a go, through necessity, but anyway. United manage it well too.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076402#msg1076402 date=1269529717]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39490.msg1076389#msg1076389 date=1269529120]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076384#msg1076384 date=1269528595]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076306#msg1076306 date=1269519796]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=39490.msg1076301#msg1076301 date=1269519252]
To be fair to Tommo, ignore Rebel and his fuckwittery, and look at what he's trying to do here.

Is he looking at a fair and balanced view regarding the trials and tribulations of our current season in an even handed manner? No.

What he's doing is focussing some attention back on the ownership issue rather than the gang fuck that is our performance on the pitch this season - and I'm glad he is too.

Perfect world - owners fuck off, Rafa takes a position somewhere else that will be better for his mental state, new owners come in and provide sustainable financial backin got new manager.
[/quote]I wouldn't be against that. I think the point for me is that regardless of who was running the club and how much money was available, I would still want Rafa to go as I have utterly no faith in him spending 100m wisely.
And I'm really dissappointed that Pacheco, Dalle Valle, Eccleston etc havnt been given a chance this year.
Yes ideally new owners the whole shebang but the minimum expectation has to be that the leader of a team that has fallen apart falls on his sword.
[/quote]

Are you for real? Are you seriously disappointed that Rafa hasn't thrown in untried, untested, inexperienced professional kids?

[/quote]

Show some perspective. The team on the pitch each week isn't performing. Posters like yourself who back Rafa would probably say that's down to the players, so what do we do to rectify that? A player like Pacheco comes in, puts in a brilliant cameo and then is nowhere to be seen again. How is that 'good' management? He should be encouraging youngsters with appearances, then when they make the most of that appearance, the manager should build on that by giving them further opportunities, he hasn't.

No one is saying we're in a position to throw in rookies week in week out, but when the team is under-performing, and especially when short on numbers anyway, players on the fringe of things, and in our case that means youngsters like Pacheco, should be getting more chances.


[/quote]

Pacheco has had appearances so has Ecclestone. You don't get playing time unless its earned and those guys have to earn a slot. Ngog has had appearances, scored and made a few goals too, he still gets derided. Insua is a young player, look at how he is regarded here. Throwing in kids when the team is struggling is never a good idea particularly when they are at a stage where confidence is fragile. God only knows what Pacheco's 'nickname' would be if he were playing regularly.
[/quote]

I agree that throwing youngsters into a struggling team is a bad idea. Although that doesn't really sit well with your examples of N'gog and Insua. The fact is, they didn't need to earn their chance (N'gog in particular). They were thrown in because we had nobody else. Which is primarily the result of a shit transfer policy.

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39490.msg1076460#msg1076460 date=1269536905]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=39490.msg1076458#msg1076458 date=1269536721]
The reason we should play the kids is that this season is fucked anyway and we've got nothing left to lose.

Next year we will have, and so obiously they will get very little playing time.

Unless . . . they get a few good games now, show they're worth a punt and earn their place. Otherwise it's just a self-defeating cycle that teenagers (or graduates) up and down the country are all too familiar with:

Can't get a job - got no experience

Can't get experience - got no job
[/quote]

While our neighbours across the park have them chomping at the bit for a first team place, they give them a chance AND are now in a fairly healthy position in the league, just three points behind us, despite all the money spent.

I know they're in more of a position to give youngsters a go, through necessity, but anyway. United manage it well too.
[/quote]

Tbh, the only games that really matter now are the Europa ones (and that feels quite violating having to say that), so give 'em a chance - drop Stevie into midfield and whack a bit of Pacheco on, see what he can do.

What's the worst that can happen?

We don't get fourth pl . . . oh

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39490.msg1076461#msg1076461 date=1269537034]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076402#msg1076402 date=1269529717]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39490.msg1076389#msg1076389 date=1269529120]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=39490.msg1076384#msg1076384 date=1269528595]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39490.msg1076306#msg1076306 date=1269519796]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=39490.msg1076301#msg1076301 date=1269519252]
To be fair to Tommo, ignore Rebel and his fuckwittery, and look at what he's trying to do here.

Is he looking at a fair and balanced view regarding the trials and tribulations of our current season in an even handed manner? No.

What he's doing is focussing some attention back on the ownership issue rather than the gang fuck that is our performance on the pitch this season - and I'm glad he is too.

Perfect world - owners fuck off, Rafa takes a position somewhere else that will be better for his mental state, new owners come in and provide sustainable financial backin got new manager.
[/quote]I wouldn't be against that. I think the point for me is that regardless of who was running the club and how much money was available, I would still want Rafa to go as I have utterly no faith in him spending 100m wisely.
And I'm really dissappointed that Pacheco, Dalle Valle, Eccleston etc havnt been given a chance this year.
Yes ideally new owners the whole shebang but the minimum expectation has to be that the leader of a team that has fallen apart falls on his sword.
[/quote]

Are you for real? Are you seriously disappointed that Rafa hasn't thrown in untried, untested, inexperienced professional kids?

[/quote]

Show some perspective. The team on the pitch each week isn't performing. Posters like yourself who back Rafa would probably say that's down to the players, so what do we do to rectify that? A player like Pacheco comes in, puts in a brilliant cameo and then is nowhere to be seen again. How is that 'good' management? He should be encouraging youngsters with appearances, then when they make the most of that appearance, the manager should build on that by giving them further opportunities, he hasn't.

No one is saying we're in a position to throw in rookies week in week out, but when the team is under-performing, and especially when short on numbers anyway, players on the fringe of things, and in our case that means youngsters like Pacheco, should be getting more chances.


[/quote]

Pacheco has had appearances so has Ecclestone. You don't get playing time unless its earned and those guys have to earn a slot. Ngog has had appearances, scored and made a few goals too, he still gets derided. Insua is a young player, look at how he is regarded here. Throwing in kids when the team is struggling is never a good idea particularly when they are at a stage where confidence is fragile. God only knows what Pacheco's 'nickname' would be if he were playing regularly.
[/quote]

I agree that throwing youngsters into a struggling team is a bad idea. Although that doesn't really sit well with your examples of N'gog and Insua. The fact is, they didn't need to earn their chance (N'gog in particular). They were thrown in because we had nobody else. Which is primarily the result of a shit transfer policy.
[/quote]

With Ngog & Insua, it was circumstances that gave them their break i.e. injuries. But that was the same with Fowler, McManaman, Owen. Would Jack Rodwell have been given a chance if Everton didn't have their own injury problems? It's always a gamble with youth, that's why managers tend to avoid playing them if they can. I think Insua on the back of last season, earned his chance.

Ngog playing is the result of the lack of an experienced line leader, but he has contributed well. I'm not sure if it is ' transfer policy' or the fact that the owners decided it was more important to reduce the debt rather than strengthen the team.

 

[Richey]

You say it was circumstances that gave McManaman, Fowler and Owen their chances but I don't think that's strictly true. As has been pointed out already, possibly injuries and European rules helped McManaman but with Fowler and Owen they were already well known and banging on the door of the first team.

A difference however is that those guys once they were in they stayed in. I get the impression that with Benitez if he ever does give a young player a chance they won't stay in no matter how they perform, and that's assuming he even gives them the chance at all - before even doing that he'll try moving his 'trusted' players around into different positions to fill any gaps.

 

[singlerider]

I know we've got a few lads who watch the youth and the ressies - which are actually worth a go at the minute?

 

[peekay]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=39490.msg1076491#msg1076491 date=1269540071]
You say it was circumstances that gave McManaman, Fowler and Owen their chances but I don't think that's strictly true. As has been pointed out already, possibly injuries and European rules helped McManaman but with Fowler and Owen they were already well known and banging on the door of the first team.

A difference however is that those guys once they were in they stayed in. I get the impression that with Benitez if he ever does give a young player a chance they won't stay in no matter how they perform, and that's assuming he even gives them the chance at all - before even doing that he'll try moving his 'trusted' players around into different positions to fill any gaps.
[/quote]

Scoring 5 goals in a game in your first few games kinda helps in cementing your place in the squad 😉