The midfield against Norwich

[dmishra]

----------------------Allen
------------Coutinho----Gerrard
--------------------Henderson

This is how it looked to me, with Henderson and Coutinho interchanging at times. This is the sort of diamond I've advocated for a while with Allen in that holding position.

Now I know this was only a one-off, and that too against Norwich, but I do think that this is the formation and personnel to stick to in the long-term. Coutinho dropping deep was quite interesting because he gives a ball-carrying ability in the middle of the park which is like a breath of fresh air.

If we could get a top class enforcer in place of Henderson, that midfield would look very good I think. Say someone like Pogba or Witsel.

I've also said that Allen will shine in that holding role in the long run. He wasn't anything extraordinary at all yesterday, but had a pretty nice game. I'd say we persist with him there for an extended run of games.

 

[Glen C]

The sooner allen is sold the better. He will never be better than average. We need better than allen, hendo and lucas.

 

[dmishra]

Er, yes, I know that's your standard response.

 

[mark1975]

Glen, the biggest pessimist and trigger happy critic on here.

 

[dmishra]

There's one thing being a constructive critic, and appearing completely mental all the time.

Everyone knows we need better quality in midfield - the solution isn't to axe them all and buy again - that's what the last three managers have done in succession now. I'd like someone to, you know, do his job - manage!

Get a structure in place for the midfield, and make sure the right players play in the right position. Get the best value out of existing players. You could start with giving enough games for people we've spent considerable money on - Allen, Alberto, Sakho and Ilori. There's no point signing these players while you continue to persist with the Lucas and Aggers of the world (and award them new contracts) when they've proven for over 5 years that they aren't world class.

The idea of signing these players was to eventually find a spine for the side that was better than the one we already had. They aren't going to do that warming the bench for the very players they were bought to replace/compete with.

 

[Red Astaire]

I quite like Allen. He played well yesterday and if it wasn't for Ruddy could have scored a 'worldy'.

 

[Modo]

I'd like to see us try this midfield:

------Lucas----Gerrard
------------Allen

Lucas protecting the back line, Gerrard as our playmaker with a licence to go forward, Allen as our first line of defence, harassing their midfielders and disrupting their build up play.

 

[mark1975]

I'd like to see us try this midfield:

------Lucas----Gerrard
------------Allen

Lucas protecting the back line, Gerrard as our playmaker with licens to go forward, Allen as our first line of defence, harassing their midfielders and disrupting their build up play.

The big worry is physique, it's still the same issue as last year when Hendo wasn't getting a look in, no real presence or commanding figure. I think Allen could be the calming influence who will put his foot on the ball, turn on the spin and play the ball around to keep it simple and keep the momentum going, but we still lack that something. I think even in that set up, Lucas would just drop in many games anyway out of sheer habit, and we've seen what they're like as a partnership, a bit too similar in stature.

 

[Modo]

The big worry is physique, it's still the same issue as last year when Hendo wasn't getting a look in, no real presence or commanding figure. I think Allen could be the calming influence who will put his foot on the ball, turn on the spin and play the ball around to keep it simple and keep the momentum going, but we still lack that something. I think even in that set up, Lucas would just drop in many games anyway out of sheer habit, and we've seen what they're like as a partnership, a bit too similar in stature.

I admit that Hendo fitness can be helpful but we need goals, we need someone who can help create goals. Allen has only played two games since he came back from injury and looked far more threatening than Henderson.
You're right rotating them doesn't solve our problems in midfield, but I'm all out of ideas.

 

[Red Astaire]

Would I be right in thinking that Allen is similar to Carrick? I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong about that though......

 

[Glen C]

Glen, the biggest pessimist and trigger happy critic on here.

Not trigger happy but just dont rate our current midfield. I think we have the potential of a strong defence and a great attack with the SAS. We also have good future stars like coutinho, mclaughlin, suso and Ibe. I've no issue with lucas and hendo being squad players but just not regulars. Allen i see nothing that tells me he can offer anything. He's not a great defensive midfielder nor good attacking one. He's not even a good playmaker so no im no fan of Allen at all.

 

[Ryan]

It's hard to make any declarations, positive or negative, after watching how Norwich went about trying to play against us.

Giving footballers like Gerrard and Coutinho the freedom of Anfield to roam around and pick out passes was fucking absurd.

If I was a Norwich fan, I'd have been disgusted. But anyway...

Allen did ok. As Spion pointed out, he looked nervous to begin with, but played well as the game wore on. Lucas' natural inclination first and foremost is to defend space and to quell attacks and forays. He's good at that. Allen's first insinct, always, is to find space to receive the ball. That's a fairly subtle but huge difference, especially when we start to come up against better sides who'll look to wreak havoc in the holes that Gerrard leaves behind.

Here's a fairly unbullish prediction; When we play Man City we'll get beat by 4. You can't operate like we do at defensive mid and not expect Silva and Yaya Toure to take the fucking piss.

Back to the game. Henderson's a victim of versatility. He's reliable in 18 positions, not wonderful in any one of them. His touch and technique around the box aren't subtle enough, and moves invariably break down when it reaches him. If he can't barge with the ball, he'll cough it up or slow it down. You can see the differences in technique between him and say, Alberto. The ball comes to Henderson and you can just see he's conceentrating like a mother-fucker to get his feet set and to trap it properly. Alberto's sauntering round, head up like a motherfucker, ball glued to his feet cos is touch is feather-lite.

Henderson's got great attributes don't get me wrong, but he's not a ballplayer, and B-Rodge prefers craft over crunch every day of the week. Hendo will be first to sit on the pine the second some new fancy European swags his way in in the next transfer window.

Alberto I like. But like Allen and Coutinho he had way too much freedom to operate.

We're still a fairly uninspiring midfield, but then outside of Many City probably, so's just about every other one right now too.

So long as Suarez doesn't get injured we'll foreplay our way around 4th I guess.

 

[rurikbird]

I thought it was not a diamond, but a fairly standard 4-2-3-1 with Coutinho playing "in the hole" and Henderson stationed on the right (drifting inside a lot, but that's standard procedure nowadays). Hendo didn't play anything like a playmaker at the top of the "diamond" and Coutinho didn't play as a CM - he just dropped deep to pick up the ball. Kaka and other traditional playmakers in Italy do that a lot. After the break, Rodgers made Hendo and Sterling change flanks - that also shows that they were treated as wingers.

------------Suarez-----------
Sterling--Coutinho--Hendo
--------Allen--Gerrard----

For me Henderson is not effective enough as an attacking player out wide. I would like to move him into the midfield and have Rodgers try this formation:

-------------Suarez---------
Coutinho---------Alberto/Aspas
---------Allen----Hendo----
------------Gerrard----------

The midfield triangle can rotate and players would take turns playing at the base of the triangle. It would help immensely to have a good attacking LB, so that Coutinho can drift inside more.

I would also start experimenting with Alberto in one of the CM positions, especially against teams that prefer to sit back and counter rather than press and engage in physical battles in midfield. Surprisingly, there are lot of teams like that in the Premiership nowadays. Maybe in games against those teams we can line up like this:

-------------Suarez---------
Coutinho-------------Aspas
---------Allen----Alberto----
------------Gerrard----------

Then Lucas and Henderson can come in for the last half hour to inject more energy and pace.

 

[Whirly]

 

[Modo]

wtf?

 

[rurikbird]

Henderson average position is squarely in the middle because he played on the right and on the left in this game. As you can see, Sterling is the middle too.

 

[Ryan]

Henderson average position is squarely in the middle because he played on the right and on the left in this game. As you can see, Sterling is the middle too.

Is correct.

 

[Mystic]

I thought it was not a diamond, but a fairly standard 4-2-3-1 with Coutinho playing "in the hole" and Henderson stationed on the right (drifting inside a lot, but that's standard procedure nowadays).

That's exactly how I saw it too, although Coutinho was definitely coming back more than usual, which I quite liked.

Now I don't think Allen has a bad game, he wasn't great, he was just decent/good enough, but I do think we missed Lucas. Like Ryan said, Lucas' first instinct is to defend and take those positions to protect the back four, a better team would walk through the middle of our team on Wednesday, and argueably Norwich did at times, they could have score a couple of goals. I guess at home against Norwich is as good a chance as any to give Lucas a rest with the schedule we've got coming up, but we cannot afford to be anywhere near as open against Tottenham, City or Chelsea, Lucas must play.

 

[Rosco]

You talk as if teams don't walk through our midfield when Lucas does play.

 

[Hansern]

Lucas must play. Its like someone stabbing your eyeballs while reading that. Hopefully the M'Vila signing will happen though. Massive upgrade on Lucas and our midfield.

 

[dmishra]

I thought it was not a diamond, but a fairly standard 4-2-3-1 with Coutinho playing "in the hole" and Henderson stationed on the right (drifting inside a lot, but that's standard procedure nowadays). Hendo didn't play anything like a playmaker at the top of the "diamond" and Coutinho didn't play as a CM - he just dropped deep to pick up the ball. Kaka and other traditional playmakers in Italy do that a lot. After the break, Rodgers made Hendo and Sterling change flanks - that also shows that they were treated as wingers.

It felt to me far more fluid than a traditional 4-2-3-1, where the triangle is pretty much set. If anything, Gerrard pushed forward much more against Norwich than all season instead of staying back at the base of the triangle with Allen. Henderson roamed all over, and Coutinho spent about 60% of the game at CM rather than in the hole. The only constant was Allen at the fulcrum.

Sterling for me played almost like a striker than a wing-forward in a 4-2-3-1. Which is why it looked to me more like a diamond than the triangle midfield. I have issues with the personnel at the moment, because I don't like Gerrard that deep, and I don't think Henderson excels in anything. What I want to see is something like this:

--------------------------Allen
----------Pogba/Witsel------Gerrard
------------------------Coutinho
-------------Sturridge--------Suarez

That could change into a 4-2-3-1 if required at times, with Coutinho on the left, and Suarez on the right. Either way, you're right about one thing, this needs excellent full-backs to work.

 

[dmishra]

That's exactly how I saw it too, although Coutinho was definitely coming back more than usual, which I quite liked.

Now I don't think Allen has a bad game, he wasn't great, he was just decent/good enough, but I do think we missed Lucas. Like Ryan said, Lucas' first instinct is to defend and take those positions to protect the back four, a better team would walk through the middle of our team on Wednesday, and argueably Norwich did at times, they could have score a couple of goals. I guess at home against Norwich is as good a chance as any to give Lucas a rest with the schedule we've got coming up, but we cannot afford to be anywhere near as open against Tottenham, City or Chelsea, Lucas must play.

I'd challenge the assertion that Lucas' 'natural inclination' is to defend space and quell attacking forays. He had very little natural inclinations to start with as a player - it's why he was shoe-horned into that DM role in the first place - its a position people get better at if they play it enough - and Lucas has had about 4 years of no competition there now. Give Allen half a season, and he'll be good at that as well. It isn't a particular art - it's just experience which a smart able-bodied player should be able to pick up.

Alonso became immeasurably better at defending space, intercepting and drawing fouls over the years. History is littered with players who started of with no position and were converted to DMs, some of them top class ones. Off the top of my head:

Parker
Barry
Helguera
Hamann
Jeremies
Dacourt
Phil Neville
Deschamps
Flamini

Those are players who've been part of top-quality midfields, and they started off as either defenders, or 'nothing' midfielders/role players. I see Allen as having more going for him as a player than most of them. There's no reason why he shouldn't be able to adapt to a role like that.

 

[RedStar]

Allen reminds me alot of Deschamp, he doesnt have the commanding presence that Deschamp did but that comes with time. His game is similar, he just wants to keep things ticking over and cycle the ball around, playing in that position when the opposition are pressing you takes alot of experience which Allen doesnt really have yet. If he learned to draw the fouls like Didi or Xabi did he would get himself alot more room to operate, as it stands hes too honest always trying to play his way out of difficulty.

What we have lacked since Hamann left is a midfielder who can just shuffle the ball around and chew up time when the opposition are trying to get a foothold in the game. Gerrard for all his talent never learned to dictate the tempo of a game and nullify the opposition by starving them of the ball, its always been death or glory with Stevie. Didi balanced that out because he was able to slow things down break up play and draw the sort of cheap free kicks that impetuous players like Lucas are prone to give away. I think Allen can be that player for us but it will take time. He needs to build his confidence and he also needs to win the confidence of his team mates to give him the ball in tight situations and let him do his thing. Allen is not a stand out player hes a cog in the machine type but he needs players on the same wavelength to show for the ball and give him options to work the ball through the phases. Right now I think Coutinho and maybe Alberto are capable of that .

 

[Mystic]

You talk as if teams don't walk through our midfield when Lucas does play.

No where near as much.