PSG interested in Coutinho

[peekay]

So let's say PSG is serious, Coutinho's head gets turned and we end up selling him for £50M and buying Mane for £30M as a replacement (which is not guaranteed, btw – he can well choose another team who are playing in Europe or stay put). Will our attack suffer? Based on the stats, not so much. Coutinho produced 12 goals and 7 assists in all competitions last season – his most productive season for us yet. The season before was 8 and 6, respectively. Mane last season scored 15 and assisted 9, season before that 13 and 9. Of course, goals and assists don't tell the full story about a player's contribution – but if your role in the team is of a goal-scoring winger, then those stats do actually matter. Coutinho is not doing much playmaking in Klopp's system, so he should be judged by his attacking contribution and on that front both he and Lallana leave a lot to be desired.

I posted this in another thread:

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=67510

(i) Sadio Mane scored 1 goal against us on 25th October 2015 in the PL and the next goal he scored in the PL was nearly 6 months later in March against us. He went on a nice run after that. In between the two dates he only scored one goal in all competition, in December 2nd against us. 4 goals in 6 months all against us. Why did he not score for 6 months except against us? When he plays for us, he will not have the luxury of our shit defense helping him get out of goal droughts.

(ii) My understanding is that Mane plays both as a support roaming striker and as a winger, slightly deeper. When was he more productive - as a striker or as a winger who plays deeper. My guess is that his goal drought came when he was playing as a winger. If he was our Coutinho replacement, considering we have Origi, Sturridge, Ings - most likely he will play deeper on the wings than as a support roaming striker. If that is the case, I doubt he will match Coutinho's output.

I have not watched a lot of Sadio Mane. Maybe I am 100% wrong about him. But the streaky nature of his goal scoring worries me.

And there is a reason why Barcelona and PSG are interested in Coutinho and not in Mane. If you think Coutinho is replaceable, then fine. Maybe there are other players who can match him.

But if you think Mane is the player whom you think can adequately replace Coutinho's influence and effect on the team, I think you are going to be disappointed next season.

 

[peekay]

Firstly, Hes not our best player.

Secondly he's nowhere near as embedded into the side as those other players were, i dont want to proactively sell and lose him but if big money offers come in, we'd have to look very closely at his £ value against value to the club.

He is close to being our best player.

The bolded part is exactly why I am against his sale. I have limited confidence in the scouts identifying or the club attracting a more than adequate replacement. If our transfer committee were moneyballing like Juve, then no worries. But some of the posters on this forum have a better track record than our transfer committee in identifying correct players as replacements which is a worry.

 

[rurikbird]

I posted this in another thread:

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=67510

(i) Sadio Mane scored 1 goal against us on 25th October 2015 in the PL and the next goal he scored in the PL was nearly 6 months later in March against us. He went on a nice run after that. In between the two dates he only scored one goal in all competition, in December 2nd against us. 4 goals in 6 months all against us. Why did he not score for 6 months except against us? When he plays for us, he will not have the luxury of our shit defense helping him get out of goal droughts.

(ii) My understanding is that Mane plays both as a support roaming striker and as a winger, slightly deeper. When was he more productive - as a striker or as a winger who plays deeper. My guess is that his goal drought came when he was playing as a winger. If he was our Coutinho replacement, considering we have Origi, Sturridge, Ings - most likely he will play deeper on the wings than as a support roaming striker. If that is the case, I doubt he will match Coutinho's output.

I have not watched a lot of Sadio Mane. Maybe I am 100% wrong about him. But the streaky nature of his goal scoring worries me.

And there is a reason why Barcelona and PSG are interested in Coutinho and not in Mane. If you think Coutinho is replaceable, then fine. Maybe there are other players who can match him.

But if you think Mane is the player whom you think can adequately replace Coutinho's influence and effect on the team, I think you are going to be disappointed next season.

Can you please check you hypothesis against this data? It shows all the (starting) positions Mane played throughout this season etc. I have to run out, so don't have time to analyze this:
Mane: http://www.transfermarkt.com/sadio-mane/leistungsdaten/spieler/200512
Coutinho: http://www.transfermarkt.com/coutinho/leistungsdaten/spieler/80444

 

[Red Bird]

What makes you so certain Mane will reproduce those figures at Liverpool? For example, what were Lallana's figures at Southampton before he came to Liverpool? How do they compare with his current Liverpool ones?

 

[mark1975]

Quite. And his profile fits perfectly with everything we've bought via statistical analysts or whatever daft approach certain sections of the committee take. Amazing that Rodgers has gone and we're still identifying players of his ilk, just like we were under Dalglish too. It's the product of dickheads earning a wedge looking through numbers and graphs and trying to forge a team via some flawed equation.

 

[peekay]

Can you please check you hypothesis against this data? It shows all the (starting) positions Mane played throughout this season etc. I have to run out, so don't have time to analyze this:
Mane: http://www.transfermarkt.com/sadio-mane/leistungsdaten/spieler/200512
Coutinho: http://www.transfermarkt.com/coutinho/leistungsdaten/spieler/80444

Thanks for that. I looked at Mane's PL record and it looks like he has scored 11 goals in the PL with the following positions

Right wing - 7
Support Striker - 2
Left Wing - 2

So my hypothesis of his dry period coinciding with him playing on the wing is wrong. During the dry period he played 8 times as a RW and 9 times as a support striker. But I am worried about the 5-6 month dry not scoring period. Just from last year, more than half of his goals in the PL came from his last 6 games including a hat trick. During that lean period, he only had two assists in the PL.

Southampton have stated that Mane will only go for a record sale. 40 million was the number they mentioned. I would be uncomfortable paying more than 15 million for those numbers. Overall they look OK but the streaky nature concerns me.

 

[mom]

If we pay 40 for him I give up.

 

[rurikbird]

Why is that though?

Is it him seeing himself as more of a Neymar type (really?) Or is it the fact that he's played in a worsening team and slowly ended up being the sole source of goal threat (particularly true at the start of this season and at times last season).

Isn't that exactly what I said, keni? His game indeed started evolving in the "Neymar" direction after we lost Suarez (and Sturridge to injury). I will even agree with you - maybe it's fair to credit him for that change, because the team needed it at the time. But for whatever reason (possibly even Klopp's instructions - we don't know that) he wasn't able to switch back to the playmaker mode when the team needed it.

The EL final is a stark example - we really could have used a playmaker who could keep the ball in the 2nd half, but it was a lot more than one game. When Klopp was talking all season about players making bad decisions with the ball, not being patient enough, forcing things unnecessarily etc, he was not just talking about young players like Ibe or Origi - unfortunately Coutinho has been one of the main culprits. Sturridge is another, by the way, but it's kind of expected for strikers to be greedy.

And I talked before about the effect this has on the team-play. The whole point of having Klopp is to allow him to build the awesome, flexible and smart attacking machine he's known for. You don't necessarily need the most talented players for that - Grosskreutz was pretty ordinary as an attacker, Kuba a mid-table team winger and Kagawa failed at United. Only Reus and Lewandowski were truly world-class and they both fit Klopp's style to a tee. Klopp's system works because it doesn't rely on individual qualities of attackers too much, but the requirements for decision-making and teamwork are very severe.

So to conclude, if the best Coutinho is ever going to be is a slightly greedy winger who has no pace, is average in defense and scores 10-12 goals in all competitions per season - yeah, I think he is replaceable then. But I still think there is more to him and I hope we will see it next season.

 

[keniget]

if the best Coutinho is ever going to be is a slightly greedy winger who has no pace, is average in defense and scores 10-12 goals in all competitions per season

Why not just call him shit and be done with it.

 

[rurikbird]

Why not just call him shit and be done with it.

Really? That's your takaway from my post? That's too bad, not what I meant at all.

And the part that made you so upset is unquestionably true. Not even an opinion, just 4 obvious facts. Maybe it's unpleasant for us to admit, but when he is limited by his current role and mindset, Coutinho is not all that special.

 

[mark1975]

Coutinho looked fucking amazing in the title challenge season, if we surround him with quality then he will drag us through some games (as he has done) and he will contribute more consistently over the course of a season.

People really need to get out of this heads in the sand, Football Manager mentality. Any wide player who is capable of 10-12 assists per season is worth their weight in gold, because they're likely to push beyond that with quality around them.

Why do fans start to rewrite history when these sort of situations arise? Does anyone trust us to spend the fee on anyone better than him? I certainly don't. Like I said, the idea that he's not as good as the other top players who've gone before him, should set the alarm bells ringing. He's one of, if not our best player (who's better? A fit Sturridge? Can? No chance), and if he falls someway short of players who've come and gone before him, then that should be indicative of how much we've stripped away our finest assets to end up where we are. You don't sell your best players, especially when you've already fallen so far off the map. If he goes to a top club, he'll become a top player, if he works under Klopp then he has every chance to do the same.

 

[gkmacca]

Any wide player who is capable of 10-12 assists per season is worth their weight in gold

Reducing things to assist stats is worse than any Football Manager mentality, whatever the feck THAT is. Personally, I prefer to watch him in games rather than stare at stats on paper. And on the pitch, in games, he's too inconsistent, he plays the wrong ball too often and doesn't seem to have the fight to compete when it's most needed.

 

[mark1975]

Yeah ok. So his ability to create more chances/goals than most, isn't important?

If we were buying an attacker, the first thing anyone would look at is their attacking stats. I know other facets are important too, but you look at a players primarily important contributions, associated with their role.

 

[rurikbird]

People really need to get out of this heads in the sand, Football Manager mentality. Any wide player who is capable of 10-12 assists per season is worth their weight in gold, because they're likely to push beyond that with quality around them.

You mean goals, not assists, right? Coutinho never had 10 or more assists in a season.

2013-14: 5 goals, 8 assists (in all competitions)
2014-15: 8 goals, 6 assists (this is where he starts becoming more of a scorer than provider)
2015-16: 12 goals, 7 assists (8 and 5 in the league)

If we only count league goals, then Phil has scored 18 goals in the league in last 3 seasons, which gives an average of 6 per season. So, how many EPL wingers and AMs have scored at least 6 league goals this season? The answer is 20, 1 for each team in the EPL:

Mahrez 17
Sanchez 13
Ayew 12
Wijnaldum, Mané, Sigurdsson, Arnautovic 11
Payet 9
Coutinho, Antonio, Tadic, Barkley 8
De Bruyne, Pedro 7
Ozil, Eriksen, Mata, Lanzini, Sterling, Redmond 6

Once again, once you take away the (potential) play-making capability from Coutinho and judge him against other wingers purely on his attacking contribution, he's is only slightly above average.

 

[Fabio]

In the Premier league

 

[peterhague]

I think it's not as wise as it sounds to say that he's one of our best players and therefore we shouldn't sell. He might be one of our best players and still not be good enough.

What's really crucial is what level we're aspiring to. I want us to broadly be in a position to compete for the title each year. Therefore the only players I think we really need to keep hold of are ones currently good enough to exel in that sort of team or who might well get to that level. Sturridge, Can, Origi, Gomez, and one or two of the other youngsters I'd put in that class. Coutinho might just about be, but I think it's questionable. A good offer would definitely tempt me, or the chance to swap for someone more clearly in that top drawer (Gotze, say).

 

[mark1975]

Origi and Gomez have about a dozen good games between them, yet they're considered good enough to be in a team challenging for the title, ahead of Coutinho? I rate both of them and hope they fulfill their potential, but that's just bonkers, particularly in regard to Gomez. Coutinho has performed fairly consistently over a longer period, those two lads haven't played enough football yet to decide one way or the other.

And it's not about aspiring to have a standard similar to Coutinho as that of our best players, it's about building on the better players we have, and he's most certainly without a doubt one of them.

 

[peterhague]

I see you still haven't learnt to read.

 

[mark1975]

I see you still haven't learnt to read.

Errrr.. the only players I think we really need to keep hold of are ones currently good enough to exel in that sort of team or who might well get to that level. Sturridge, Can, Origi, Gomez, and one or two of the other youngsters I'd put in that class.

Sounds like your willing to put them as having the potential to get in that bracket. Joe Gomez has played 5 Premiership matches. I'm not sure how that puts him in the "hopeful" bracket, and Coutinho in the "not sure if he can" bracket.

 

[tony]

I think it's not as wise as it sounds to say that he's one of our best players and therefore we shouldn't sell. He might be one of our best players and still not be good enough.

What's really crucial is what level we're aspiring to. I want us to broadly be in a position to compete for the title each year. Therefore the only players I think we really need to keep hold of are ones currently good enough to exel in that sort of team or who might well get to that level. Sturridge, Can, Origi, Gomez, and one or two of the other youngsters I'd put in that class. Coutinho might just about be, but I think it's questionable. A good offer would definitely tempt me, or the chance to swap for someone more clearly in that top drawer (Gotze, say).

That would be lovely if we had unlimited funds available and could attract that sort of talent but we don't and can't. It would be mad to sell unless we can upgrade on him but that is unlikely. I think he is much better playing in the centre instead of the left, unfortunately Firmino impacts on his effectiveness.

Regards

Tony

 

[mark1975]

Someone should kick Dani Alves in the fucking teeth:

“Football is about living the moment,” he told Yahoo Esportes. “Liverpool have history but you should consider playing for top UCL sides.

“He has the quality to play for Barcelona.”

Alves and Coutinho are both with the Brazil squad for the Copa America, with the Selecao beginning their campaign Ecuador in the early hours of Sunday morning in Pasadena.

Earlier this week, Coutinho was reportedly quoted as admitting he misses winning trophies.

“I miss winning cups,” he said. “Copa America is another opportunity for me, because every player dreams of winning cups.”

 

[tony]

Well fucking turn up and fucking win one you muppet - you had two chances this year ffs. ( not you Mark obvs )

 

[peterhague]

Errrr.. the only players I think we really need to keep hold of are ones currently good enough to exel in that sort of team or who might well get to that level. Sturridge, Can, Origi, Gomez, and one or two of the other youngsters I'd put in that class.

Sounds like your willing to put them as having the potential to get in that bracket. Joe Gomez has played 5 Premiership matches. I'm not sure how that puts him in the "hopeful" bracket, and Coutinho in the "not sure if he can" bracket.

Cos Gomez has far more untapped potential than Coutinho.

It's not exactly a difficult concept.

 

[mark1975]

Cos Gomez has far more untapped potential than Coutinho.

It's not exactly a difficult concept.

It is when it's based on 5 games. Keep up.

 

[rurikbird]

Sorry, I have to be with Mark on this. Gomez is a unknown concept at this point and has much more to prove than Coutinho. We didn't even see him at CB for Liverpool once, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[peterhague]

Sorry, I have to be with Mark on this. Gomez is a unknown concept at this point and has much more to prove than Coutinho. We didn't even see him at CB for Liverpool once, if I'm not mistaken.

None of which contradicts what I said. By definition someone's potential remains to be proven.

 

[gkmacca]

Sorry, I have to be with Mark on this. Gomez is a unknown concept at this point and has much more to prove than Coutinho. We didn't even see him at CB for Liverpool once, if I'm not mistaken.

He's not an 'unknown concept'. That's a ridiculous exaggeration. Some have followed him for some time - he was hardly an obscure kid. I know this is the silly season on here when the combination of inaction and boredom encourages this kind of thread, but there's no need to distort stuff so much.

 

[moron]

I wish the player would just come out and say he wants to leave. Just get it over and done with and put us out of our misery (well mine at least). I am still getting over Torres leaving to Chelsea, so this move means fuck all to me right now. Don't know about any of you but I think we have as supporters of this club now well and truly conditioned to losing our best players at the end of each season.

 

[Whirly]

Coutinho has looked excellent in this Ecuador Brazil match through the first half. A lot of the attacking play is running through him, and he's mostly playing in a creative capacity.

If Brazil keep using him in this role, he's going to gain a ton of exposure in this tournament.

 

[juniormember]

Coutinho has looked excellent in this Ecuador Brazil match through the first half. A lot of the attacking play is running through him, and he's mostly playing in a creative capacity.

If Brazil keep using him in this role, he's going to gain a ton of exposure in this tournament.

Yeah, we simply need more attackers around him for him to actually start wanting to play them in, the way it was a couple of years back.