Post-match Madrid Talk
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Think the last eight words are wrong but the rest was about right.
We didn't really add anything when they came on but did look to have more class. Sterling was the one I think most of us wanted to see come on but he was probably the worst of the three subs and, one winning duel against Ronaldo apart, did nothing in his 20+ minutes on the pitch.
We lost.. how on earth can you say well in Redmen. .
Are we suddenly that shit a 1 nil defeat is a moral victory?
We are 5 times European Champions.. We field a weakened team in Europe in arguably a must win game... What sort of message does that send out ?.. We are the laughing stock of Europe right now.. Totally toothless in attack..
Would Bob Paisley have done that ?...
Would Shankly have said 'well done Red men' for a 1 nil loss?
Have we become Roy Hodgson esq fans?? It seems so..
'Despite losing that's the Best performance of the season'
Go and rub your face m8, We lost.. no well in Redmen about it..
I thought Rodgers made a mistake with his 3rd sub – I would have gone for Balotelli in place of Lallana. Coutinho made us look classier, but with Borini and Lallana both being slower and weaker than their Madrid opponents, we never had cutting edge that would have allowed us to equalize in this short period of time. So Rodgers kind of settled for looking good and losing. Whereas with Balotelli I think we would have had a real chance at equalizing. Ramos was already on a yellow, Mario could have gotten him sent off and maybe could earn a dangerous free-kick.
As for the other 2 subs, Gerrard definitely added another dimension to our game compared to Lucas. I don't see how some people fail to see it. And Sterling was quiet-ish, but still better than Markovic. I think he got something in his eye right after coming on and even 5 minutes in I saw him rubbing his eye – unfortunate.
As for the other 2 subs, Gerrard definitely added another dimension to our game compared to Lucas. I don't see how some people fail to see it. And Sterling was quiet-ish, but still better than Markovic. I think he got something in his eye right after coming on and even 5 minutes in I saw him rubbing his eye – unfortunate.
Stop being a melodramatic prick, and please...cut out this cringey 'ohhh but we're Liverpool' bollocks.
This is 2014, not 1984. We lost 1nil to Newcastle on Saturday, and we've been shite all season long.
We were playing The European Champions, on their home patch...a team that have smashed in 42 goals in 10 games no less....so excuse me for not stamping my feet around my living room and throwing a hissy fit because my team lost 1nil.
I've been as critical as anyone of our performances this season, they've been rotten, and I'll continue to criticise if and when I see fit...but tonight, I can't honestly fault any of our players... Maybe their decision making and lack of ambition at times, but not for their endeavour, work rate and discipline.
Yes I thought he played quite well. Some of our passing and ball retention was excellent and Allen was a big part of that. Where it all fell apart was on the rocks of Ramos and Varane.
We didn't play possession football last year, we played counter attacking football. We've tried to play a posession style most of this year, and it hasn't worked. If we don't shoot ourselves in the foot first via some individual error defending fairly basic attacking play, teams know that they can force errors by pressing. We take risks in posession in defense, without them leading to goal scoring opportunities consistently enough to warrant them. This is how any team playing this way would be at first, but with so little offensive production in the team at present, I don't think its something we'll just grow out of with current personnel.
We don't have speed in transition this year, and I don't mean on the ball speed, I mean the tempo of our passes, and the skill of our players to receive an outlet ball, turn and find a pass has been severely lacking, with the exception of Sterling earlier in the season, but that well is running dry. Coutinho should be perfectly made to fill that role, hence the brain of the team stuff from Rodgers, but he hasn't done it near enough. Lallana should be able to do that as well to a lesser extent, but has been good in spurts. If Markovich started playing more aggressively and with more confidence, or even competently at times, it would help. Today was the first time he's even shown a glimpse of quality, he's been cowardly, and I'd love to see more direct play from him and a bit of confidence. He could still lack in quality and not work out, but we'll never know if he hides.
Then there's the runs ahead, when we do break. Sometimes there are passes on, and we aren't making them, sometimes we are making the wrong decisions, but often our forwards aren't making those runs. Balotelli has looked better starting attacks than he has on the shoulder of the last defender. He hasn't had a career in any way defined by scoring frequently on the break, and sometimes he isn't making those runs. Whatever else the limitations Borini has, he runs well off the ball, with intelligence. Lambert will never function on a team that is trying to play on the counter.
When we do actually gain the opposition third, and play with any intensity, which is for maybe 5 minutes of a given game, if that, we do show that there is skill in the side. We do have midfielders who can pass and move, we do have aggressive runners, and this year, finally, we have competent fullbacks on both sides. The amount of times they can comfortably push up and take the wide channels isn't enough, and the risk we take on to get there isn't worth it at present. It's all about adjusting the balance.
What's strange about this balance thing is that Rodgers last year said fuck it and went for a very aggressive way of playing at the expense of defense, and now we see us lacking in goal production throughout the side, with no understanding in forward play, and instead of risking an extra forward, he's gone all conservative. There's zero of the fear factor that gave us so much space last year. And we still leak goals. He seems to have more confidence in the idea that he can make us defend tighter, which hasn't been the case the whole time here, than he does in us reliably getting goals with any available players. He might be right, stick 2 up front from the start and we might be more likely to ship goals than the additional chance to score one. Very likely the case against Chelsea.
Yeah, agree with most of that.
My main concern is that I don't think Brodge has a fucking clue what he's doing right about now.
There's about 2 things right at the minute, and about 800 things wrong. And all Brodge is doing is adding more things to the wrong category.
He was great at making small adjustments as we hurtled along last season, and he did arrive on that system of play after turning his back on a more pass them to death style, so I'm hoping he's not irretrievably stubborn in this case. I've not got a problem with managers fucking up, even a lot, if I think that they eventually learn from it. A lot of management seems to be trial and error to me. There are too many variables for it to be anything but.
If we head back to the approach we saw against Newcastle against Chelsea, then I'll be really worried, because it will mean that really, this was just about washing his hands of this game, prioritizing elsewhere, and, for me, worrying a little about optics, rather than winning.
Fucking Rickie Lambert.... how dare he not score in the 9 minutes he's played during the last 3 Champions League games.
Where's he taking it down too?
FUCK - we're getting relegated? Oh well, at least he has experience in the championship.
What do you mean, THIS season?
We where toothless in attack and we lost 1 nil.. Nothing melodramatic about it.. The line up smacked of Defeat even before the game started..
We have got better results in Europe in the past against similar opposition with weaker teams, and never set out a team as similar to what we did against Madrid. I am not bying your argument.. I felt embarrassed to be a Liverpool fan last night.
Granted it was a decent display by some, but nothing really to get excited about.. If anything it only emphasises what we already knew, that BR needs to change his normal starting 11, especially in midfield, and we have a squad full of average players, most of which have been bought by BR
For those reasons no way does warrant a 'well done redmen'
I wouldn't say overblown, passionate yes.. certainly not overblown
Look, I understand that people think we left our best players out. Personally on form, I think there was little argument against dropping any one of Lovren, Sterling, Gerrard or Mario, they have all been underperforming consistently.
Like I said last night, at least we learned something about a few players who are on the fringes, Lucas put in the most encouraging display he's put in for a while too. It's all food for thought going in to the Chelsea game. If we'd put out our best side last night and lost by a few goals again, what will we have taken away from the game? That the same side that come up short against Newcastle, Hull, West Ham, Basel, etc came up short against the reigning European Champions? Great, so what do we learn from that? That we persevere again with the same lot against Chelsea? Or we look at certain aspects where we looked stronger and adapt that to the side to maybe make us more solid, while adding a bit of something in the final third that we undoubtedly lacked last night? We've took something away from the game.
As for Bren's spat with Lineker, Rodgers is right. Big ears blasted him for playing a reserve side, this is the same sort of pundit who will give him shit for signing the wrong players over the last few years. He played a fair few of them last night and they performed well.
Like I said last night, at least we learned something about a few players who are on the fringes, Lucas put in the most encouraging display he's put in for a while too. It's all food for thought going in to the Chelsea game. If we'd put out our best side last night and lost by a few goals again, what will we have taken away from the game? That the same side that come up short against Newcastle, Hull, West Ham, Basel, etc came up short against the reigning European Champions? Great, so what do we learn from that? That we persevere again with the same lot against Chelsea? Or we look at certain aspects where we looked stronger and adapt that to the side to maybe make us more solid, while adding a bit of something in the final third that we undoubtedly lacked last night? We've took something away from the game.
As for Bren's spat with Lineker, Rodgers is right. Big ears blasted him for playing a reserve side, this is the same sort of pundit who will give him shit for signing the wrong players over the last few years. He played a fair few of them last night and they performed well.
If the replacements had shown that they represented a more dynamic, incisive, dangerous option than those they replaced, then it would have given cause for encouragement. As it is, most of them showed they were either just as poor and ineffectual as the others, or a bit worse. So what it told us is that we have two sets of mediocrities in the squad, both seemingly incapable of defending properly or scoring many goals. I really don't see the point in putting a positive spin on that. It's frankly patronising for some to chastise those who express an honest sense of frustration and anxiety about this. This is a semi-private forum, not a PR department.
I've had a little time to reflect and, oddly, I've got slightly closer to Macca's position about the whole thing. Rodgers made a good point that considering how shite we've played all season it is difficult to judge what our best team actually is. He also had a valid point as to having to make changes following the performance against Newcastle. Regardless of who we were playing, we needed to put in a performance which had at its foundation tactical discipline, hard work and playing as a team.
However, he's essentially created this whole situation for himself. He's poorly managed the squad this season, uttering conflicting messages about giving people time and people needing to perform, resting players at odd times and going about building momentum in a really odd way. He's been slow to find alternatives to problems which jars with how flexible he was last season.
He could have easily put that team out tonight without half of the brouhaha that is circulating in the press if he'd just given out a message of 'Our performance against Newcastle was unacceptable, so we need to make changes'. He could have quite easily justified playing Lucas and Can because we needed to have a greater emphasis on defence, and justified Borini up front because we need the movement. There would have been no argument from me. But he framed the whole thing with a 'we have a tough game on the weekend' attitude which draws attention to the second-string nature of the first eleven last night.
And besides, if we needed to make changes after the performance at the weekend, well that's not been the first shite performance this season but he's so far not made the changes he made last night. Lovren could do with an old-fashioned spell in the reserves - Kolo in his time here hasn't had a worse mistakes per game ratio than Lovren has. Henderson has been poor for a fair few games, so why not be decisive and put Emre Can in? It is obvious even to Arsene Wenger on his most Stevie Wonder-esq days that Ballotelli and Lambert will continue to be shite on their own up front so why didn't he pair one of them with Borini for a spell?
Brendan is all over the place at the moment.
However, he's essentially created this whole situation for himself. He's poorly managed the squad this season, uttering conflicting messages about giving people time and people needing to perform, resting players at odd times and going about building momentum in a really odd way. He's been slow to find alternatives to problems which jars with how flexible he was last season.
He could have easily put that team out tonight without half of the brouhaha that is circulating in the press if he'd just given out a message of 'Our performance against Newcastle was unacceptable, so we need to make changes'. He could have quite easily justified playing Lucas and Can because we needed to have a greater emphasis on defence, and justified Borini up front because we need the movement. There would have been no argument from me. But he framed the whole thing with a 'we have a tough game on the weekend' attitude which draws attention to the second-string nature of the first eleven last night.
And besides, if we needed to make changes after the performance at the weekend, well that's not been the first shite performance this season but he's so far not made the changes he made last night. Lovren could do with an old-fashioned spell in the reserves - Kolo in his time here hasn't had a worse mistakes per game ratio than Lovren has. Henderson has been poor for a fair few games, so why not be decisive and put Emre Can in? It is obvious even to Arsene Wenger on his most Stevie Wonder-esq days that Ballotelli and Lambert will continue to be shite on their own up front so why didn't he pair one of them with Borini for a spell?
Brendan is all over the place at the moment.
"Oddly"?! Cheeky git! 😀
Yes, it makes most sense to me as a message from Rodgers that he felt pretty disgusted by the performance at Newcastle, following on from other ineffectual performances, and basically was more about punishing those left out than it was about genuinely rewarding those who came in. And I can sympathise with his disappointment. But as you say, it leaves us in a negative state. We surely don't know any better what our first XI should be, and we surely don't have any serious cause for optimism in terms of our ability to recover the form of last season.
Yes, it makes most sense to me as a message from Rodgers that he felt pretty disgusted by the performance at Newcastle, following on from other ineffectual performances, and basically was more about punishing those left out than it was about genuinely rewarding those who came in. And I can sympathise with his disappointment. But as you say, it leaves us in a negative state. We surely don't know any better what our first XI should be, and we surely don't have any serious cause for optimism in terms of our ability to recover the form of last season.
Oddly purely in terms of it's not normal for me to get more annoyed about a game the longer time goes on!
It has sent out a confused message - I'm not sure whether people were left out or rested, and whether the players who played last night were playing for a regular shot in the side. I doubt the players are either.
I suppose what's been bothering me most over the past month or so is that most of the players don't seem to be listening to Rodgers. That could well be a misconception - after all, the England players might still be hungover from last season's disappointment, and fatigued from the second disappointment of the world cup campaign, and other ones might just be struggling to settle in or regain confidence, but it does keep looking like that to me. We know Rodgers is a good coach, and we know how he wants players to play, but the sheer listlessness and aimlessness of many players in recent games makes me wonder what's really happening. I just don't believe he sends the team out to be as slow and predictable as they've been, but there's still no response. The poor form I can take, it's the lack of energy and drive that worries me more. I mean, even Allardyce and Bruce teams know that you can still play a high tempo pressing game even when you're out of sorts. Our players, if anything, seem to get slower - mentally even more than physically. They don't look as if they're trying to improve.
"If Liverpool decide to rest players when they play against the European champions, it's a question for the Liverpool manager - it's not a question for me.
"I don't speak about Liverpool. I speak about myself. If one day I go to a game and I don't feel I can win, maybe I don't go.
"Normally, against the most difficult opponents, normally I will try to go with my best team."
"I don't speak about Liverpool. I speak about myself. If one day I go to a game and I don't feel I can win, maybe I don't go.
"Normally, against the most difficult opponents, normally I will try to go with my best team."
Rodgers said in his post match presser that the players didn't make it easy for him as they were not coming off the back of a good winning streak. They are all playing shit so it didn't really matter what team he started with, it's not like he left out anyone that would do any damage to Madrid on current form. I think that team that we put out did really well to get a 0-1 at the current best team in europe. Better teams than us could have gone there and got ruined.
I doubt any of the top 10 sides in the PL could tell you exactly what their best side is because it will vary with form and the type of opposition they are facing. It's no longer an 11 man team per se but more like 14-15. So on that basis some of the players from last night emphasised their right to be considered in that Top 15.
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