Our squad and 433

[Ossi]

I know that the transfer window is still open and things can still happen but I am in doubt that Rodgers can assemble a "good" squad for his 433-system.

Kenny wanted proper wingers (well he tried anyway) and the classic big and small striker. Now we probably won't use Carroll or need wingers. Imo our current squad is a mess.

Will the owners give him the money and/or the time to get it right? I know scm won't. 😉

 

[Ryan]

You've touched on a good point Ossi, cos we don't really have the players to play a proper 4-3-3. We could probably scrape togethor a starting 11 that would come close, but that's about it. And even then, some of those 11 would be playing out of their normal position. Add to that the fact they've never played in this formation before.

IMO, we're probably 2 years away from getting two things: the right players, and then the right players playing that system effectively.

The main issue is that we've got a squad full of expensive shite that we can't offload, so we have to make do.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Question - who can play the 'wings' of the second 3?

With Bellers going, only Suarez and Borini really, right?

 

[Glen C]

currently its downing, bellamy, borini, pacheco, sterling and suarez. when dempsey arrives he can play there as well.

 

[Ryan]

Question - who can play the 'wings' of the second 3?

With Bellers going, only Suarez and Borini really, right?

There's a difference between 'who can' and who will'.

For now, it'll be Glen's list. I suspect we'll start the season with a front 3 of Downing-Suarez-Borini.

 

[dmishra]

If Allen arrives, he'll make the midfield three more compact and workable within the 4-3-3. We'd still need at least two quality attackers to make it work decently though. I hope to fuck it isn't just Dempsey we end up signing.

 

[RedZeppelin III]

did we play a 4-3-3 against gomel or whatever they're called ? It looked more like 4-5-1 to me . Borini was miles away from anyone and on his own upfront .

And what are the 3 in middle meant to be ? Just a defensive midfielder and 2 centre mids or ? Barca usually have 2 pretty attacking players in here (xavi and iniesta) who contribute a fair few goals and assists . I can't see that from our 3 which i gather they want to be allen , gerrard and lucas .

I wonder if rodgers will have to reevaluate this tactic or if he's even going to use it as much as people think.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Borini----Suarez----Downing or Borini----Carroll----Suarez?

Jamie Carragher, making his 700th appearance for the club, has already won high praise from Rodgers for his showing in Belarus and now Borini’s efforts on the night have earned praise from the Ulsterman.​

Borini played as Liverpool’s central striker in Belarus but Rodgers hinted he sees the 21-year-old’s long-term role as being on the left of a three pronged attack.​

Borini worked tenaciously with little reward against Gomel but his manager says it was important that the former Chelsea player got in a full 90-minute workout as the team step up their preparations for the first game of the season at West Bromwich Albion a week on Saturday.​

“It was important for him to play the full 90 minutes,” said Rodgers.​

“We have to remember he is just coming back from the European Championships and, once we get Luis back, he will give us greater penetration from the left and improve the team.​

​

​

 

[mark1975]

You've touched on a good point Ossi, cos we don't really have the players to play a proper 4-3-3. We could probably scrape togethor a starting 11 that would come close, but that's about it. And even then, some of those 11 would be playing out of their normal position. Add to that the fact they've never played in this formation before.

IMO, we're probably 2 years away from getting two things: the right players, and then the right players playing that system effectively.

The main issue is that we've got a squad full of expensive shite that we can't offload, so we have to make do.

I don't think we're miles off the lineup Ryan. I think effectively if we sign Allen we'll have the midfield with him, Lucas and Gerrard. over the next season or so I'd like to see us break the bank for a player who will play the Gerrard role in the longterm, someone of real quality. At the back if we keep Skrtel and Agger, that's the centre halves. Johnson plays the overlapping role well while Enrique's position is the one that's questionable. Upfront it's been pretty obvious that Borini, Suarez and Dempsey are the preferred front three, with Dempsey covering Gerrard's position too.

Ideally I'd say over the next season or two, we need to break the bank for a wide forward, a link midfielder to replace Gerrard and a left back. That's assuming no one jumps ship.

 

[keniget]

I don't know whether it just seems like it but it feels like we invest a disproportionate amount of money on central midfielders.

I wonder how it breaks down for other top sides.

It's a little bit surprising that given that our attack was our single biggest issue last season and less than two weeks from the start of the season we're looking weaker in this department rather than stronger.

 

[jexykrodic]

Does anyone actually watch football matches and attempt to spot the system throughout?

Isn't it more about the players and their relative quality?

I feel kinda dirty for not having the necessary sophistication for this kind of introspection.

 

[mark1975]

Does anyone actually watch football matches and attempt to spot the system throughout?

Isn't it more about the players and their relative quality?

I feel kinda dirty for not having the necessary sophistication for this kind of introspection.

Probably. Whatever the system, it's still the same outcome as where we were at the end of the season, most of us have said for ages we need a quality attacking midfielder, a couple of forwards and a left back (probably). That hasn't really changed just because we're now looking at playing 433.

 

[the_khl]

There's a difference between 'who can' and who will'.

For now, it'll be Glen's list. I suspect we'll start the season with a front 3 of Downing-Suarez-Borini.

I'm not saying yuo've got it wrong but I sure hope so.

I want to see Carroll involved, as we need a proper striker/hitman. Suarez for all his qualities, and he's got a lot, simply doesn't score enough goals. Downing, well, I like him more than most, but will he score many goals? Don't think so, and then Borini, which for all the praise and very decent looking CV still have to adapt, etc.

Suarez, Carroll plus Borini or Downing would be my pick with Gerrard in the advanced role and Lucas and Adam further back. Good mixture of Workmanship, Ability, Pace, Skill and Goals.

 

[Glen C]

I'm not saying yuo've got it wrong but I sure hope so.

I want to see Carroll involved, as we need a proper striker/hitman. Suarez for all his qualities, and he's got a lot, simply doesn't score enough goals. Downing, well, I like him more than most, but will he score many goals? Don't think so, and then Borini, which for all the praise and very decent looking CV still have to adapt, etc.

Suarez, Carroll plus Borini or Downing would be my pick with Gerrard in the advanced role and Lucas and Adam further back. Good mixture of Workmanship, Ability, Pace, Skill and Goals.

When did carroll become a proper striker, i must have missed those 5 mins. And you would actually pick Adam? Really??

 

[the_khl]

When did carroll become a proper striker, i must have missed those 5 mins. And you would actually pick Adam? Really??

I have seen people on here suggest Spearing and Shelvey ahead of Adam which simply doesn't make any sense to me at all despite their talents. Adam is a prime footballer when on top of his game and he's entering hopefully the best years of his career. He can play, he just simply didn't for big chunks of the later stages of last Season. I hope and believe that was a fluke as he's got a lot of talent this lad, and I really hope Rodgers gives him the chance to prove himself.

With regards to Carroll, yeah I believe he's a proper striker. I loved how he looked for Newcastle and believe he found a lot of that grit and strength and power in the closing stage of last Season as well. His performance against Chelsea in the Final last Season alone should convince even his sternest destractors that there's a very very good footballer in him. I want us to believe in him and use him properly as I'm sure it will pay dividens to us in more than one way.

 

[Ryan]

Does anyone actually watch football matches and attempt to spot the system throughout?

Yep. It's all I can see.

I'll be accused of being something for that answer, but meh.

 

[StevieM]

I don't think we're miles off the lineup Ryan. I think effectively if we sign Allen we'll have the midfield with him, Lucas and Gerrard. over the next season or so I'd like to see us break the bank for a player who will play the Gerrard role in the longterm, someone of real quality. At the back if we keep Skrtel and Agger, that's the centre halves. Johnson plays the overlapping role well while Enrique's position is the one that's questionable. Upfront it's been pretty obvious that Borini, Suarez and Dempsey are the preferred front three, with Dempsey covering Gerrard's position too.

Ideally I'd say over the next season or two, we need to break the bank for a wide forward, a link midfielder to replace Gerrard and a left back. That's assuming no one jumps ship.

Or hope that Robinson, Suso & Sterling can come through.

 

[StevieM]

I have seen people on here suggest Spearing and Shelvey ahead of Adam which simply doesn't make any sense to me at all despite their talents. Adam is a prime footballer when on top of his game and he's entering hopefully the best years of his career. He can play, he just simply didn't for big chunks of the later stages of last Season. I hope and believe that was a fluke as he's got a lot of talent this lad, and I really hope Rodgers gives him the chance to prove himself.

With regards to Carroll, yeah I believe he's a proper striker. I loved how he looked for Newcastle and believe he found a lot of that grit and strength and power in the closing stage of last Season as well. His performance against Chelsea in the Final last Season alone should convince even his sternest destractors that there's a very very good footballer in him. I want us to believe in him and use him properly as I'm sure it will pay dividens to us in more than one way.

I clearly don't see what you see in Carroll Kristian - have you uncovered some Danish ancestry that we don't know about? It's the long flowing locks isn't it - what is the Danish God of Thunder eqivalent? 🙂

The problem is that we aren't going to see the best from Carroll unless we build a team that plays to his strengths - and Rogers is arguably building a team that will expose his weaknesses - there would be no point playing Borini & Suarez off Carroll and hoping that Carroll can offering good movement, fast interplay, etc - using him as a battering ram and banging in the ball as fast and early as possible isn't going to work - so we should have cashed in on Suarez if we wanted to keep Carroll.

I'm with Mark in all this - I don't think we're as far away as Ryan suggests at being able to implement Rogers system - whether it can be implelemented in a way that sees the team punching coinsiderably above it's weight is another matter.

They keeper & back 4 are ok - nothing needs to be changed at this point - we have a good CB pairing with Carragher & Coates as back-up. We have 2 adequare FB's with Kelly & Robinson offering young cover. with Lucas & Henderson we have a solid midfield base, with the prospect of Allen making that even better. Gerrard provides the midfield creativity and dare I say it fatty Adam might be better suited to playing in that role with less defensive responsibilities - I'm not saying he's a Gerrard - but he might be better utilised further forward were his passing abilities outweigh his defensive culpabilities. Maybe this is the area for a loan move - or Shelvey in at the deep end.

The front 3 = Borini on the left, Suarez in the middle and maybe Joe Cole on the right - it could work. Sign Dempsey and you can rotate - or again this is where a loan option comes in - other teams can do it - why can't we.

Long term you're looking for teh likes of Shelvey, Suso, Sterling, Kelly & Robinson to start pushing for a regular starting position - if they're really any good. We might not have the money to buy players, but we have plenty of options.

I'm happy Rogers is moving on older players and those that won't work in the system - the quicker we get the system ingrained, the quicker we will advance as a team.

 

[the_khl]

I'd be extremely underwhelmed if our line of forward for the upcoming season reads: Suarez, Dempsey, Borini and Cole. It has 8th written all over it, no matter how much they run around and inbetween eachother.

Carroll is far better on the ball than some posters are making out, yeah he's no Messi I get that, but he's got a decent first touch, good use of his body to keep the ball protected and a rather good eye for his teammates.

He's still young and with the right guidance and the backing of the manager he'll thrive even in a team with loads of possession and high pressure. Much more so than say Torres, at least imo.

 

[StevieM]

I'd be extremely underwhelmed if our line of forward for the upcoming season reads: Suarez, Dempsey, Borini and Cole. It has 8th written all over it, no matter how much they run around and inbetween eachother.

Carroll is far better on the ball than some posters are making out, yeah he's no Messi I get that, but he's got a decent first touch, good use of his body to keep the ball protected and a rather good eye for his teammates.

He's still young and with the right guidance and the backing of the manager he'll thrive even in a team with loads of possession and high pressure. Much more so than say Torres, at least imo.

Jesus Kristian... Did you just compare Carroll to Torres????

 

[Ossi]

I'd be extremely underwhelmed if our line of forward for the upcoming season reads: Suarez, Dempsey, Borini and Cole. It has 8th written all over it, no matter how much they run around and inbetween eachother.

Carroll is far better on the ball than some posters are making out, yeah he's no Messi I get that, but he's got a decent first touch, good use of his body to keep the ball protected and a rather good eye for his teammates.

He's still young and with the right guidance and the backing of the manager he'll thrive even in a team with loads of possession and high pressure. Much more so than say Torres, at least imo.

He might be "ok" on the ball, it's his movement off the ball I'm worried about. To have two smart, quick players wide and then have a clumsy, slow horse (you know the clip) as à center doesn't seem wise imo.

 

[Ossi]

Just to clarify: I do believe Carroll could be à very good striker but not in a 433-formation. I could be wrong...I hope I'm wrong!

 

[the_khl]

Actually the opposite mate 😉

Torres thrives from a very direct style of play where he can utilize his pace the best way possible whereas Carroll is much more useful in a team in control and in possession deep into the the opponents half where he can get best use of his strength and physical stature.

 

[the_khl]

It depends on the '433' as I see it. A Barca-like 433 doesn't play to Carroll's strengths I get that but i.e. the way Denmark's national team make use of the same formation number-wise is with a big guy on top, fast, trickery wings and an advanced playmaker.

It'll work a treat for us too.

Suarez..........Gerrard..........Borini
................Carroll...........................

 

[dantes]

It depends on the '433' as I see it. A Barca-like 433 doesn't play to Carroll's strengths I get that but i.e. the way Denmark's national team make use of the same formation number-wise is with a big guy on top, fast, trickery wings and an advanced playmaker.

It'll work a treat for us too.

Suarez..........Gerrard..........Borini
................Carroll...........................

😱

 

[StevieM]

It depends on the '433' as I see it. A Barca-like 433 doesn't play to Carroll's strengths I get that but i.e. the way Denmark's national team make use of the same formation number-wise is with a big guy on top, fast, trickery wings and an advanced playmaker.

It'll work a treat for us too.

Suarez..........Gerrard..........Borini
................Carroll...........................

.... But neither Suarez or Borini are wide players or known for their crossing ability.

So, in order to get the best out of Carroll, which is potential goals, you're advocating not making the best use of the 2 other forwards.

 

[moron]

Carroll really does not fit into the 433 system - its essential that such a system has dynamic players not some big guy who has off days when comes to moving around.

 

[Mystic]

I actually think Carroll has the right movement for a 433, my frustration with him last season was that he would never stay up there in the box and that he often interchanged with other players out wide, I think this would work well in a 433 which is all about movement.

 

[mark1975]

I think he's got terrible movement off the ball Mystic, he's shown occasional flashes, which suggests there's something to work with, but the embedded anticipation and decisiveness just doesn't seem to be there alot of the time, he misjudges his leaps, doesn't get into the right positions quick enough (or stands in the wrong positions) and 'can' generally look sluggish and cumbersome because of his frame. His ability with the ball when he has the time and space can be good, his passing can occasionally be excellent, but when we're talking about one touch football in tight areas, as an attempt to try to break through mean defenses with bodies behind the ball, that's where he'll fall short.

 

[Mystic]

Yeh actually I agree, I think I was just being optimistic in my last post, because I would like for us to find a way to incorporate Andy into our team as I do think he can be brilliant. He does show flashes of making the quick pass, the right moves, so I'm hoping Brendan can somehow coach into him more consistantly.