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Midfield General Discussion - 6,8,10 blah blah blah

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manwithnoname

Bravo old man. Bravo.
Banned
This has been inspired by thinking about Henderson's role, really, but it's a wider debate, and really split into two parts: Defensive solidity and attacking quality.

Everyone knew that the midfield needed serious reinforcement, even before Chamberlain got injured. There were too many slightly one-paced, flat and uninspiring collective displays, when tiredness and a lack of Coutinho-style magic was evident.

There was lots of hard work, running, sweat and toil, but often we seemed to lack a bit of spark and invention - look at the number of goals contributed by Wijnaldum, Henderson, Milner and Can. Milner contributed a lot of assists with his crossing and set-piece delivery, but apart from that there didn't seem that much of an attacking threat. This was ameliorated by the pyrotechnics supplied by Salah and co, but often our midfield options seemed a little underwhelming - and tiredness certainly came into play.

And of course, this led to the usual quackings about Wijnaldum's vital invisible role, and how midfield is now just a "platform" and the days of specialist midfielders are over, and there's no more box-to-box players or proper DMs and the all the usual fucking horseshit.

But oddly, this "platform" didn't really contribute much to defensive solidity either. Similarly, the lack of an easily identifiable DM has long been considered an issue to help address the horrible Goals Against record we've had for the last 5 years or more, and a seemingly pathological inability to close out a game and protect a lead under Klopp.

Many were screaming out for a "proper" DM. Hence Fabinho. That's what he is.

The role of Henderson is an interesting one, too. What was he last season and the season before? Seems like Klopp sees him as a "Number 6", and he was really impressive in that role (or 'pivot") for England. Was he doing that for Liverpool in such a prescribed fashion? Is it the same role? Was he a pure DM?

And what will Klopp do when he has his captain and Fabinho available? Is the "Number 6" a pure DM role and is it a triangular system that only affords one such player?

So what else? Keita seem to have hit the ground running and everyone is dead excited. But what's he? A "Number 8" in Klopp-speak, which is really a box-to-box midfielder, roaming the pitch and bursting forwards to assist in attack. Gerrard-esque? I'm not sure. But certainly his arrival does make Wijnaldum look like a bench player.

So that leaves.....the Fekir-shaped hole in Klopp's ideal midfield. The Coutinho/ Attacking Midfield creator. "The Number 10". What's going to happen here? I suspect we might see Keita shoe-horned here after the Fekir deal collapsed, with Lallana and Shaqiri in support perhaps. This might then free up space in the midfield for the likes of Henderson, Wijnaldum, Milner to get more games.

What's the thoughts of the Forum?
 
I think you summed it up well enough at the end Bren. I suspect Fekir would have supplemented the attack, as much as the midfield and Keita was always earmarked to spearhead the triangle.

Lesser games Keita might sit with Fabinho, tougher games we will go more solid with Hendo and Fabinho sitting and Keita in front.
 
Klopps comments about Keita after yesterdays game:

Klopp on Naby Keita: “He can do much better, that’s clear. He was exhausted in the last few minutes when they scored the counter attack. Usually Naby is around that situation.”

Klopp: “But football wise he is in a good way, because he’s a naturally skilled boy. His first few metres and sprints are outstandingly quick. He was good in the game but it was very intense. We trained this morning more intense than usual on a matchday.”

Klopp: “He is a creative midfield player with tactical discipline. That’s a big strength of his. I don’t want to give him 500,000 bits of information, we got him because he is the player he is, so the first thing we do is to let him go, then he can adapt to our system.”

Klopp: "I see him as a No 8, he can play as a 10 as well, maybe in future he can play as a six. At Leipzig he played as a winger, which is not his best position but he can still play it with his speed and intelligence.”

Klopp: ”We see him as a creative midfielder, making runs, passing the ball, running with the ball – he has the same speed with it as without! We know his quality, and fitting him into our team should not be a big problem."'

Fekir would give us the balance between a nr 10 and maybe in the Firmino role as well. Thats what we're lacking at the moment.
Other than that I think our midfield now looks balanced and full of quality.
 
Quite a few of us were jumping up and down about Klopp signing a DM - I don't know how good Fabinho is, but he was a DM! Wow!

And then watching England, and Henderson, I did think - is that what Hendo is anyway? Maybe I can't see the wood for the trees, and his injury issues haven't helped, but did we really always have a DM, and always played with one anyway?

As for Keita, his ideal role as Number 8 seems like the most "free" and traditional "all over the pitch" type of midfielder, popping up all over the place, but does that mean that Klopp's "Dream Midfield" was:

Fabinho - 6
Keita - 8
Fekir - 10

And is that what we've played before? With Coutinho as 10 and Henderson (or Can) at 6, and Milner/ Wijnaldum/ Can as 8?
 
Still prefer a number 10 to come in. Keita would be more effective playing deeper in a 2 as he has ability to run with the ball from the deep.

Can tried to do this last season and gini manages to this sometimes, with a small run before always checking back. this will be a game changer in how we play.
 
I always saw the midfield last season as designed purely to provide solidity and a base then get the ball back then give it to one of the front three. Not sure Klopp needed them to do anything more than that. Nice that we have strengthened of course, and we still need someone who can play the 10 role for that extra bit of spark on occasion, but looks to me like Keita can do that as well as everything else!
 
Klopps comments about Keita after yesterdays game:

Klopp on Naby Keita: “He can do much better, that’s clear. He was exhausted in the last few minutes when they scored the counter attack. Usually Naby is around that situation.”

Klopp: “But football wise he is in a good way, because he’s a naturally skilled boy. His first few metres and sprints are outstandingly quick. He was good in the game but it was very intense. We trained this morning more intense than usual on a matchday.”

Klopp: “He is a creative midfield player with tactical discipline. That’s a big strength of his. I don’t want to give him 500,000 bits of information, we got him because he is the player he is, so the first thing we do is to let him go, then he can adapt to our system.”

Klopp: "I see him as a No 8, he can play as a 10 as well, maybe in future he can play as a six. At Leipzig he played as a winger, which is not his best position but he can still play it with his speed and intelligence.”

Klopp: ”We see him as a creative midfielder, making runs, passing the ball, running with the ball – he has the same speed with it as without! We know his quality, and fitting him into our team should not be a big problem."'

Fekir would give us the balance between a nr 10 and maybe in the Firmino role as well. Thats what we're lacking at the moment.
Other than that I think our midfield now looks balanced and full of quality.

Klopp might play Keita a bit more as a 10, seeing as he doesn't have one, and free up another position in the midfield. I dunno, seems a shame that Fekir didn't come and we saw Klopp's ideal team.
 
If he deploys Henderson just in front of the centre halves, Fabinho and Keita just slightly ahead, with the full backs given license to bomb on and provide crosses / passes inside to the front three. With Keita and Fabinho providing cover for them by doing plenty of leg work up and down the pitch. Would that not work?
 
If he deploys Henderson just in front of the centre halves, Fabinho and Keita just slightly ahead, with the full backs given license to bomb on and provide crosses / passes inside to the front three. With Keita and Fabinho providing cover for them by doing plenty of leg work up and down the pitch. Would that not work?

Maybe, dunno.

But Fabinho has been sitting centrally, and quite deep, which is far more like an old-school Hamann/ Makelele type of DM than perhaps we might like/ expect
 
Not really. What's Henderson? What's Fabinho? What formation will we play?

I put effort and thought into my posts. Please do me the service of treating them with the requisite reverence and respect.

I'm pretty sure whoever plays of Henderson and Fabinho are supposed to sit in front of the defence. The confusion arises because Henderson is captain and mouths off every five seconds screaming at the other midfielder to come back and help his sorry arse, so the formation sometimes looks like there are two sitting. That should not be a problem with a timid player like Fabinho.
 
Milner is Henderson except good. Keita will start. So it's one from Henderson, Fabinho and Gini to play the 6. I doubt he'd have spent 40 odd million on a sub, so think Henderson should have to wait for his chances
 
I hope Henderson gets opportunities to get forward a bit more this season now that Fabinho can provide that anchor in midfield. I miss Henderson running off the ball and providing an extra runner* in attack. I presume Fabinho Henderson and Keita will be consistently picked as a three more so than other combinations. Lallana, Shaqiri, Milner and Gini to rotate in depending on the game. I'm happy with our midfield right now. Plenty of options in all guises of #6, #8 & 10#. Fekir would have been the icing on the cake for #10 role as he could have also provided back up for Frimino. Maybe he is still coming or we'll have to wait til Jan.

*that's if his heal can take that level of impact running.
 
I always look at our midfield three as one defensive, one in the middle and one attacking midfielder.

We have Fabinho as the out and out DM or number 6.

We have Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner who can play 6 or 8. Keita who seems to be able to play all three roles.

Lallana is our (backup) 10.

In my mind Fekir is a 10, so if he arrives then i think we have a complete midfield squad.

Ox is out so I haven't included him and there's an outside chance that TAA could begin featuring in midfield.

Right now my first choice midfield would be Fabinho, Henderson and Keita.
 
I always look at our midfield three as one defensive, one in the middle and one attacking midfielder.

We have Fabinho as the out and out DM or number 6.

We have Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner who can play 6 or 8. Keita who seems to be able to play all three roles.

Lallana is our (backup) 10.

In my mind Fekir is a 10, so if he arrives then i think we have a complete midfield squad.

Ox is out so I haven't included him and there's an outside chance that TAA could begin featuring in midfield.

Right now my first choice midfield would be Fabinho, Henderson and Keita.

I think this is more or less it. Agree with your first choice three in the absence of Chamberlin.
 
I always look at our midfield three as one defensive, one in the middle and one attacking midfielder.

We have Fabinho as the out and out DM or number 6.

We have Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner who can play 6 or 8. Keita who seems to be able to play all three roles.

Lallana is our (backup) 10.

In my mind Fekir is a 10, so if he arrives then i think we have a complete midfield squad.

Ox is out so I haven't included him and there's an outside chance that TAA could begin featuring in midfield.

Right now my first choice midfield would be Fabinho, Henderson and Keita.
Yep, and I think if Keita plays as the most advanced of those three, he'll offer a good threat going forwards, to the point it'll negate the need for a number 10.
 
Against the more stubborn teams were a number 10 is more essential, I wouldn't be surprised to see Henderson drop out, and Shaqiri come in, with Mane slotting behind Firmino.
 
Fabinho is the 6, Keita is the 8, and we don't have a 10 currently. We can shoehorn Keita/Lallana/Henderson/Milner/Wijnaldum/Firmino into it but it's a bodge. Whether he goes to market for one is another matter depending on how stubborn he is. I think the money is there, and will be there even more when we've shipped out a few.
 
Fabinho is the 6, Keita is the 8, and we don't have a 10 currently. We can shoehorn Keita/Lallana/Henderson/Milner/Wijnaldum/Firmino into it but it's a bodge. Whether he goes to market for one is another matter depending on how stubborn he is. I think the money is there, and will be there even more when we've shipped out a few.

Agreed, but I don’t think he does have any more money to spend and we aren’t getting Fekir or any other attacking player, or a striker

We’re done transfer wise (inward anyway)
 
Well it's clear Klopp wanted:

Fabinho (DM/6)
Keita (CM/box to box/8)
Fekir (AM/10)

Obv Hendo or Gini could play either the 6 or the 8.

Chamberlain (obv not this season) could play the 10, & Keita can push up & play the 10 role.

As Brendan said earlier, it's gutting we seem to be missing out on Fekir cos we would have seen what Klopp's ideal team looks like.

Regardless though, my main gripe with our team for fucking years has been that I have never been able to write down a midfield for us & make it make sense. It always felt like we had a collection of average to above average central midfielders rather than a specific dm cm or am. Even our best AM, Coutinho, wasn't quite a proper AM but rather almost a forward who dropped back to run in from deep.

Klopp has changed that, firstly in bringing Chamberlain, who is a proper AM, & now Keita, who is obv a proper CM despite being versatile enough to play elsewhere (like another number 8 we used to have...) & Fabinho who is a proper DM.
 
What I posted on another thread.. kind of relates here:

===

I can see why Jurgen is happy with the current squad. It's currently not actually missing anything obvious.

Sturridge (who is on astronomical wages) is cover for Bobby F, so unless he moves on, I can't see us getting another CF. We've also got Origi (who 2 seasons ago was a fantastic super sub for us), Ings, Solanke (who needs games to develop) to play in that role. We need to move at least 2 of these guys (Studge esp due to his wages) off the books before considering another CF.

As for AM, or a number 10/Coutinho replacement, I don't think Klopp wants a dedicated AM. I think he always preferred solidity in the CM area, with 2 number 8s flanking a dedicated DM. Coutinho was a 10. And it's probably why Mane and him rotated so much at the beginning of the season (after he came back into the side).

Fekir, if signed, would probably play more in the front 3 than midfield. For Lyon, he played at the tip of a diamond 4, with 2 ahead of him, which isn't too dissimilar to when Firmino drops off and Salah and Mane makes runs from outside in.

I stand to be corrected, but I can't remember us ever having a great game in the league, against a good side, when Coutinho played in the midfield 3 and the front 3 also played. Against Arsenal, at the Emirates, the we tried the "fab four" and we conceded as many as we scored. We played well and deserved to win it in the first half on chances created, but as the game went on and Coutinho tired, it was clear that he was too lightweight in the centre of the park. He was always best used for us in the front 3. Also, the notion that his creativity unpicked packed defences for us is a little overstated too. For me, he was never really a playmaker that controlled the pace of the game. This is something that David Silva and Iniesta do expertly and they're the sort to unlock or wear down a parked bus defence. Coutinho wasn't on the same level in that respect. I remember all those games we struggled to score against Southampton 2 seasons ago, especially the league cup game against them at Anfield. His main bits of creavity often came from doing a great 1 v 1 skill to open up space so he could shoot (usually from long range). I never felt like he dictated the tempo of any game. Moreover, even with Mane, Salah and Bobby ahead of him last season, we were still unable to beat the parked bus that WBA brought to Anfield (0-0); when the "Fab 4" all played.

Even against S.Moscow when we battered them at Anfield, the Fab 4 was essentially playing as a 4-4-2, (not 4-3-3), with Mane and Coutinho on the wings, and Salah/Bobby upfront together. I saw a video from Balague too, that at Barca, they're realising Phil isn't a midfielder either and he's more of a forward player right now. They were hoping he would be Inieta's long term replacement, but he's positionally not good enough right now, and they're having to be patient with him.

So this notion we need a dedicated AM (number 10) is probably not true in Jurgen's mind, with Keita/Wini/Lallana/Ox all on the books capable of doing the box to box number 8 role he prefers his midfielders to do anyway. One could argue, we'd be better served getting another one of these types in (perhaps why we were pushing for Goretzka).

===

As Keni pointed out though. Getting a Fekir would give us plenty of options and a Plan B.
 
Agreed, but I don’t think he does have any more money to spend and we aren’t getting Fekir or any other attacking player, or a striker

We’re done transfer wise (inward anyway)
I'm not sure it's the cash.

I think it's because he wants a particular type of 10. One who presses enough for his system, offers a goal threat & can fill in for the front three if necessary as well.

Having read a few articles about the potential Fekir signing apparently there aren't that many players who fit that bill & are available. How true that is I don't know, but we've seen Klopp be stubborn as hell over VVD & it pay off so it wouldn't surprise me if he's being just as stubborn this time.
 
It’s nice to be having this chat though. Lots of options finally, even with the AM problem position.

Of course, like with any transfer window, I fear that at least one of our signings may not quite work out to begin with.

But that’s probably just me being me
 
Maybe, dunno.

But Fabinho has been sitting centrally, and quite deep, which is far more like an old-school Hamann/ Makelele type of DM than perhaps we might like/ expect
According to Klopp that's because he's not used to our style of play. Klopp said that he's been giving him instructions to play further forward but by reflex he's been playing like how he did for Monaco. Said he will need time to adjust to how he wants him to play.
 
What I posted on another thread.. kind of relates here:

===

I can see why Jurgen is happy with the current squad. It's currently not actually missing anything obvious.

Sturridge (who is on astronomical wages) is cover for Bobby F, so unless he moves on, I can't see us getting another CF. We've also got Origi (who 2 seasons ago was a fantastic super sub for us), Ings, Solanke (who needs games to develop) to play in that role. We need to move at least 2 of these guys (Studge esp due to his wages) off the books before considering another CF.

As for AM, or a number 10/Coutinho replacement, I don't think Klopp wants a dedicated AM. I think he always preferred solidity in the CM area, with 2 number 8s flanking a dedicated DM. Coutinho was a 10. And it's probably why Mane and him rotated so much at the beginning of the season (after he came back into the side).

Fekir, if signed, would probably play more in the front 3 than midfield. For Lyon, he played at the tip of a diamond 4, with 2 ahead of him, which isn't too dissimilar to when Firmino drops off and Salah and Mane makes runs from outside in.

I stand to be corrected, but I can't remember us ever having a great game in the league, against a good side, when Coutinho played in the midfield 3 and the front 3 also played. Against Arsenal, at the Emirates, the we tried the "fab four" and we conceded as many as we scored. We played well and deserved to win it in the first half on chances created, but as the game went on and Coutinho tired, it was clear that he was too lightweight in the centre of the park. He was always best used for us in the front 3. Also, the notion that his creativity unpicked packed defences for us is a little overstated too. For me, he was never really a playmaker that controlled the pace of the game. This is something that David Silva and Iniesta do expertly and they're the sort to unlock or wear down a parked bus defence. Coutinho wasn't on the same level in that respect. I remember all those games we struggled to score against Southampton 2 seasons ago, especially the league cup game against them at Anfield. His main bits of creavity often came from doing a great 1 v 1 skill to open up space so he could shoot (usually from long range). I never felt like he dictated the tempo of any game. Moreover, even with Mane, Salah and Bobby ahead of him last season, we were still unable to beat the parked bus that WBA brought to Anfield (0-0); when the "Fab 4" all played.

Even against S.Moscow when we battered them at Anfield, the Fab 4 was essentially playing as a 4-4-2, (not 4-3-3), with Mane and Coutinho on the wings, and Salah/Bobby upfront together. I saw a video from Balague too, that at Barca, they're realising Phil isn't a midfielder either and he's more of a forward player right now. They were hoping he would be Inieta's long term replacement, but he's positionally not good enough right now, and they're having to be patient with him.

So this notion we need a dedicated AM (number 10) is probably not true in Jurgen's mind, with Keita/Wini/Lallana/Ox all on the books capable of doing the box to box number 8 role he prefers his midfielders to do anyway. One could argue, we'd be better served getting another one of these types in (perhaps why we were pushing for Goretzka).

===

As Keni pointed out though. Getting a Fekir would give us plenty of options and a Plan B.

Good post although I don’t agree about Klopp’s thinking re: number 10 and Fekir. I think he wanted him badly, and he wanted him to play the most attacking role in a midfield three
 
According to Klopp that's because he's not used to our style of play. Klopp said that he's been giving him instructions to play further forward but by reflex he's been playing like how he did for Monaco. Said he will need time to adjust to how he wants him to play.

Cool. At least with Fabinho, we know his deep positioning isn’t down to a lack of pace or mobility, because he’s got enough of both to play higher up and still recover position.
 
Ive always though Klopp wanted to play with 1 sitting midfielder and 2 runners. Fabinho will become the sitting midfielder, and Keita is clearly one of the runners. If he were fit I suspect Ox would take the other spot giving us a good balance of direct pace and tenacious ball winning. As it stands hes put for.most if not all of the season so its between Milner and Wjinaldum for the 2nd run spot as Henderson doesnt seem to have the legs for it now.

I dont really know how Fekir would have fit if hed joined as Klopp never seems to play a no10, maybe wide left or just behind a front 2.
 
Ive always though Klopp wanted to play with 1 sitting midfielder and 2 runners. Fabinho will become the sitting midfielder, and Keita is clearly one of the runners. If he were fit I suspect Ox would take the other spot giving us a good balance of direct pace and tenacious ball winning. As it stands hes put for.most if not all of the season so its between Milner and Wjinaldum for the 2nd run spot as Henderson doesnt seem to have the legs for it now.

I dont really know how Fekir would have fit if hed joined as Klopp never seems to play a no10, maybe wide left or just behind a front 2.

He looked like he had the legs for it in Russia. If he stays fit he gets about the pitch faster than Milner or TSG

Interesting point about Fekir. Maybe I’m wrong and he would have played in that front three. Guess we will never know
 
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