Lucas to be better than Masher very soon

[Squiggles]

[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=45327.msg1332206#msg1332206 date=1305227556]
So when will the transformation happen? Will Lucas become better on 20th september say?
[/quote]

Lucas will be better than Masher when he starts captaining Argentina.

 

[Fox]

[quote author=ILD link=topic=45327.msg1332153#msg1332153 date=1305224221]
I don't like the Lucas Vs Masher debates. It's pointless. They are totally different players in my book.

Masher could marshal a defence better but Lucas probably has a better all round game.

People make out Masher is an ordinary donkey running around like a headless chicken. He was excellent for us, he is captain of Argentina and Barca and Inter wanted to sign him in the summer for 20million.

He has left and fucked us over in the process. Let's move on and allow Lucas develop as himself.

Simples.
[/quote]


but how can they be that different, they will be playing the exact position for us. That is like saying you cannot compare one keeper to another because he comes for crosses and he does not, they are both keepers.

Lucas is our No 1 defensive-ish CM, he will partner the more attacking player (Stevie or Ming) just like Masher did.

When we buy a top LW and Carroll is fit the rotation will be more like this/

--------------------Lucas/Jay-------------------
Dirk/Raul------------------------------New LW/Maxi/Raul

------------------Stevie/Raul--------------------


I very much doubt with a stronger squad Kenny will play Jay and Lucas together unless due to injury we play one up top. Ming will cover all across midfield when asked and Stevie when fit will be the attacking CM.

Super scorer rodders will takes turns with new LW and MR anywhere in midfield Ming

Does that make any fucking sense at all 😛

 

[Avmenon]

I need answers.

Poll up.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=ILD link=topic=45327.msg1332153#msg1332153 date=1305224221]
I don't like the Lucas Vs Masher debates. It's pointless. They are totally different players in my book.

Masher could marshal a defence better but Lucas probably has a better all round game.

People make out Masher is an ordinary donkey running around like a headless chicken. He was excellent for us, he is captain of Argentina and Barca and Inter wanted to sign him in the summer for 20million.

He has left and fucked us over in the process. Let's move on and allow Lucas develop as himself.

Simples.
[/quote]

Ye, this and a few other things.

 

[Vlads Quiff]

You don't need a poll Avvy.
Here is last years poll, it's Morses player of the season stats................10 firsts and 9 seconds. 26 top three places in 44 starts. Not bad for someone with little legs that thinks he's hard, that can't pass or score, is one dimensional and relied on Alonso (oh!)

Don't forget that RAWK including their Lucas mass-hysteria have a good proportion of the votes in this too.

Final table:

1. Mascherano..................10 first..........9 second.......7 third........84 points
2. Reina..............................9 first...........2 second........6 third........57 points
3. Lucas.............................4 first...........8 second.......5 third.........49 points
4. Torres............................6 first...........2 second.......4 third..........40 points
5. Johnson.........................5 first...........4 second.......1 third.........38 points
6. Gerrard..........................3 first...........6 second.......3 third..........36 points
7. Kuyt.................................4 first...........2 second.......1 third.........27 points
8. Benayoun.......................2 first...........3 second.......7 third........26 points
9. Kyrgiakos......................3 first...........2 second.......2 third.........23 points
10.Ngog..............................2 first...........4 second............................22 points
11.Aquilani.........................2 first..........2 second........2 third.........18 points
12.Carragher.....................1 first...........2 second......5 third..........16 points
13.Skrtel.............................2 first...........1 second............................13 points
14.Agger.............................2 second.....6 third.................................12 points
15.Babel.............................3 second......1 third...............................10 points
16.Degen............................1 first...........1 second............................8 points
17.Insua.............................2 second......2 third................................8 points
18.Rodriguez.......................1 first..........3 third................................8 points
19.Kelly...............................1 first............................................. ..........5 points
20.Dossena.........................1 second............................................ ..3 points
21.Riera...............................1 third............................................. ........1 point.


and here is the latest standings from April 19th....Fucking Lucas is going to have to go some there, despite this fucking brilliant season he is having .


1. Gerrard......................7 MOM........5 2nd..........1 3rd..................................51 points
2. Reina.........................4 MOM........2 2nd..........5 3rd.........16 Bonus........47 points
3. Meireles.....................5 MOM........4 2nd.........5 3rd..................................42 points
4. Lucas.........................3 MOM........4 2nd.........8 3rd...................................35 points
5. Johnson....................2 MOM.........6 2nd.........2 3rd...................................30 points
6. Kyrgiakos..................5 MOM........1 2nd...........1 3rd.................................29 points
7. Torres........................3 MOM.........3 2nd.........3 3rd...................................27 points
8. Kelly...........................1 MOM........5 2nd..........4 3rd...................................24 points
9. Suarez........................4 MOM........1 2nd.......................................................23 points
10.Kuyt...........................2 MOM........2 2nd.........1 3rd......................................17 points
11.Ngog.........................1 MOM.........3 2nd.........3 3rd....................................17 points
12.Cole...........................2 MOM........1 2nd............................................... .......13 points
13.Skrtel..........................3 2nd.........2 3rd............................................... ........11 points
14.Carroll.........................2 MOM............................................... .........................10 points
15.Carragher..................1 MOM......1 2nd.........2 3rd......................................10 points
16.Aurelio......................1 MOM......1 2nd............................................... ...........8 points
17.Shelvey......................2 MOM*......1 3rd............................................... .........7 points
18.Spearing...................2 2nd.........1 3rd............................................... ..........7 points
19.Babel.........................1 MOM............................................... ..................... ....5 points
20.Mascherano...............1 MOM............................................... ..................... ..5 points
21.Jovanovic..................1 2nd........1 3rd............................................... ...........4 points
22.Rodriguez..................3 3rd............................................... ..................... ......3 points
23.Konchesky................1 2nd............................................... ..................... ......3 points
24.Agger..........................2 3rd............................................... .............................2 points
25.Cavalieri...................2 Bonus............................................. ...................... ...2 points
26.Jones.........................1 Bonus............................................. .................... ....1 point
27.Poulsen.....................1 3rd............................................... .................... ........1 point


I think the problem in this thread is some people have selective memories and/or are unable to tell the difference between a good to average midfielder and a world class defensive midfielder , some shite has been spouted in this thread.


regards

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Fox link=topic=45327.msg1332245#msg1332245 date=1305229518]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=45327.msg1332153#msg1332153 date=1305224221]
I don't like the Lucas Vs Masher debates. It's pointless. They are totally different players in my book.

Masher could marshal a defence better but Lucas probably has a better all round game.

People make out Masher is an ordinary donkey running around like a headless chicken. He was excellent for us, he is captain of Argentina and Barca and Inter wanted to sign him in the summer for 20million.

He has left and fucked us over in the process. Let's move on and allow Lucas develop as himself.

Simples.
[/quote]


but how can they be that different, they will be playing the exact position for us. That is like saying you cannot compare one keeper to another because he comes for crosses and he does not, they are both keepers.

Lucas is our No 1 defensive-ish CM, he will partner the more attacking player (Stevie or Ming) just like Masher did.

When we buy a top LW and Carroll is fit the rotation will be more like this/

--------------------Lucas/Jay-------------------
Dirk/Raul------------------------------New LW/Maxi/Raul

------------------Stevie/Raul--------------------


I very much doubt with a stronger squad Kenny will play Jay and Lucas together unless due to injury we play one up top. Ming will cover all across midfield when asked and Stevie when fit will be the attacking CM.

Super scorer rodders will takes turns with new LW and MR anywhere in midfield Ming

Does that make any fucking sense at all 😛


[/quote]

Fox mon frere, i've already told you why they are different, but i'll paste it in again.
Masher made his name for us on the back of dynamic running, tough tackling and uncompromising defending. He had pace and swash buckling style. Lucas is the complete opposite, tries to pinch the ball from attackers, tries to position himself effectively and provide steady cover.

Now if they are going to be playing in the exact same position doing the the exact same job as you alluded to above then I think Masher would be better in that specialised role. Now that is taking nothing away from Lucas (before KK weighs in 😉), I just think Masher is/was better at the specialised role.

Now your original post stated this "I predict hardly anyone on here in 6 months time will say Masher is better than Lucas.". In 6 months time many people will still think Masher was better than Lucas as a DM. We will still think Lucas is a fine player but in a head to head as DM, Masher takes it hands down.

 

[Peatcheo]

If you are asking who the better DM is it is ludicrous to suggest that Lucas is the better player, but I agree with ILD. Its a fruitless comparison. Whats the point in this debate. Mascherano isnt exactly ancient himself and he already is when on form the best DM in the world.

 

[Y1]

*palmface*

I am not going to read through this thread!

 

[dmishra]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=45327.msg1332435#msg1332435 date=1305242539]
I think the problem in this thread is some people have selective memories and/or are unable to tell the difference between a good to average midfielder and a world class defensive midfielder , some shite has been spouted in this thread.


regards

[/quote]

End thread.

 

[Avmenon]

Vladders, there's no way I think Lucas is a better DM than Masher.

What I was wondering was whether the style of football we're playing was better suited to having 2 CM's like Spearing and Lucas sharing both offensive and defensive work; or whether what we're seeing now is only a result of Gerrard's absence.

 

[doctor_mac]

[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45327.msg1332515#msg1332515 date=1305271301]
Vladders, there's no way I think Lucas is a better DM than Masher.

What I was wondering was whether the style of football we're playing was better suited to having 2 CM's like Spearing and Lucas sharing both offensive and defensive work; or whether what we're seeing now is only a result of Gerrard's absence.
[/quote]

That's it Avvy. It isn't like Lucas always allowing SG to get forward. Both players are taking turns to go, and both are like terriers when we lose the ball. They are working really well together.

 

[RolandG]

Lucas is younger than Mascherano and can only improve defensively. He has taken his game up a notch or 2 already this season but he is not a defensive midfielder. As an attacking player, he is better than Mascherano .

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332140#msg1332140 date=1305223603]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332131#msg1332131 date=1305222980]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
[/quote]

ha ha ha ha ... Now go find the June thread where I wanted Kenny and changed my mind. Please 🙂
[/quote]

Ah I see, so you hedged your bets and that meant that you couldn't be wrong. Have those splinters removed themselves?

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=dmishra link=topic=45327.msg1332502#msg1332502 date=1305268955]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=45327.msg1332435#msg1332435 date=1305242539]
I think the problem in this thread is some people have selective memories and/or are unable to tell the difference between a good to average midfielder and a world class defensive midfielder , some shite has been spouted in this thread.


regards

[/quote]

End thread.
[/quote]

I concur. This site seems to revel in revisionist bollocks as soon as someone leaves the club. We're like a bitter ex-partner.

I also fail to understand why some, instead of praising a player who has done well, seem to have to denigrate another. I'm not happy with the way he left, but some of the suggestions about Mascherano on here have been lunacy.

 

[Richey]

Yes. Mascherano was an outstanding player for us. The left on an extremely bad note and behaved like a cunt but ultimately when he was playing for us he was immense. If he had, say, had to quit because he had a terrible injury, or if Hodgson had simply sold him against his wishes I'm sure we would be saying that we could have done with him now.

Lucas has had a good season on the whole, but for me that raises his status to 'does his job'. That's not a bad thing of course but he is still far from outstanding.

 

[cobrastatus]

The Lucas caption thread, and Avvy's absolutely stellar effort, exist for a reason.

 

[Avmenon]

19000 posts, and that one post will be what everyone remembers.

 

[robinhood]

I still don't really rate Lucas. He's doing alright at the moment, I'll give him that, but I don't think it's all that special.

When Gerrard is fit, he deserves to be dropped the most to make way.

Spearing is a better DM, like I said ages ago.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=45327.msg1332210#msg1332210 date=1305227872]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=45327.msg1332206#msg1332206 date=1305227556]
So when will the transformation happen? Will Lucas become better on 20th september say?
[/quote]

Lucas will be better than Masher when he starts captaining Argentina.
[/quote]That could be problematic.

 

[Squiggles]

Ha, I know 😉

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45327.msg1332515#msg1332515 date=1305271301]
Vladders, there's no way I think Lucas is a better DM than Masher.

What I was wondering was whether the style of football we're playing was better suited to having 2 CM's like Spearing and Lucas sharing both offensive and defensive work; or whether what we're seeing now is only a result of Gerrard's absence.
[/quote]

I know it's not about comparing like for like or not, the player of the season chart does not do that either.
You touched on a good point there Avvy, the nub of this is what happens when Gerrard is fit next season and we have new players on-board with at least one good wide player, then we won't have to push central midfielders or Dirk out wide to either accommodate them or have to fill holes. Kenny is going to be in the nice position of having to make some hard decisions.
It will be about who accompanies Stevie in the middle as the favoured pairing, I suspect it will be Ming and Stevie.
I always said the measure of our progression will be when Dirk and Lucas are not automatic choices, both have gone up in my estimation over the last six months, but neither should be an ever-present automatic choice.
As the more cerebral posters have said Lucas is no more than a good to average midfielder, he may progress even more, I hope so, who knows , but I will give credit when and where it is due, but I refuse to join in this sheep-like adulation.


regards

 

[Fox]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=45327.msg1332761#msg1332761 date=1305295737]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45327.msg1332515#msg1332515 date=1305271301]
Vladders, there's no way I think Lucas is a better DM than Masher.

What I was wondering was whether the style of football we're playing was better suited to having 2 CM's like Spearing and Lucas sharing both offensive and defensive work; or whether what we're seeing now is only a result of Gerrard's absence.
[/quote]

I know it's not about comparing like for like or not, the player of the season chart does not do that either.
You touched on a good point there Avvy, the nub of this is what happens when Gerrard is fit next season and we have new players on-board with at least one good wide player, then we won't have to push central midfielders or Dirk out wide to either accommodate them or have to fill holes. Kenny is going to be in the nice position of having to make some hard decisions.
It will be about who accompanies Stevie in the middle as the favoured pairing, I suspect it will be Ming and Stevie.
I always said the measure of our progression will be when Dirk and Lucas are not automatic choices, both have gone up in my estimation over the last six months, but neither should be an ever-present automatic choice.
As the more cerebral posters have said Lucas is no more than a good to average midfielder, he may progress even more, I hope so, who knows , but I will give credit when and where it is due, but I refuse to join in this sheep-like adulation.


regards


[/quote]


good points Vlad but I will be amazed id Raul and Stevie are our CM next season.

Plus Dirk will only not be 1st choice if we buy a RM and LM which I doubt.

Lucas and Dirk will be in our 1st team of the season I really think so

Maybe we should try to guess it, first game line up of next season

 

[Vlads Quiff]

I'm not saying they won't be in our first team of the season, but I think people need to prepare themselves as they are likely to be spending some time on the bench .

regards

 

[Le Chacal]

Once again I completely agree with Vlad...

Its like we had Maradona in our ranks and ignorants like me that are clueless about football couldnt see it.

Thanks KK and Fox for enlightening me

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=45327.msg1332761#msg1332761 date=1305295737]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45327.msg1332515#msg1332515 date=1305271301]
Vladders, there's no way I think Lucas is a better DM than Masher.

What I was wondering was whether the style of football we're playing was better suited to having 2 CM's like Spearing and Lucas sharing both offensive and defensive work; or whether what we're seeing now is only a result of Gerrard's absence.
[/quote]

I know it's not about comparing like for like or not, the player of the season chart does not do that either.
You touched on a good point there Avvy, the nub of this is what happens when Gerrard is fit next season and we have new players on-board with at least one good wide player, then we won't have to push central midfielders or Dirk out wide to either accommodate them or have to fill holes. Kenny is going to be in the nice position of having to make some hard decisions.
It will be about who accompanies Stevie in the middle as the favoured pairing, I suspect it will be Ming and Stevie.
I always said the measure of our progression will be when Dirk and Lucas are not automatic choices, both have gone up in my estimation over the last six months, but neither should be an ever-present automatic choice.
As the more cerebral posters have said Lucas is no more than a good to average midfielder, he may progress even more, I hope so, who knows , but I will give credit when and where it is due, but I refuse to join in this sheep-like adulation.


regards


[/quote]

The only problem with what you say there Vlads, is that when all three were fit, Kenny opted to pair Gerrard with Lucas, I think.

 

[Pesam]

[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=45327.msg1332810#msg1332810 date=1305299273]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=45327.msg1332761#msg1332761 date=1305295737]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45327.msg1332515#msg1332515 date=1305271301]
Vladders, there's no way I think Lucas is a better DM than Masher.

What I was wondering was whether the style of football we're playing was better suited to having 2 CM's like Spearing and Lucas sharing both offensive and defensive work; or whether what we're seeing now is only a result of Gerrard's absence.
[/quote]

I know it's not about comparing like for like or not, the player of the season chart does not do that either.
You touched on a good point there Avvy, the nub of this is what happens when Gerrard is fit next season and we have new players on-board with at least one good wide player, then we won't have to push central midfielders or Dirk out wide to either accommodate them or have to fill holes. Kenny is going to be in the nice position of having to make some hard decisions.
It will be about who accompanies Stevie in the middle as the favoured pairing, I suspect it will be Ming and Stevie.
I always said the measure of our progression will be when Dirk and Lucas are not automatic choices, both have gone up in my estimation over the last six months, but neither should be an ever-present automatic choice.
As the more cerebral posters have said Lucas is no more than a good to average midfielder, he may progress even more, I hope so, who knows , but I will give credit when and where it is due, but I refuse to join in this sheep-like adulation.


regards


[/quote]

The only problem with what you say there Vlads, is that when all three were fit, Kenny opted to pair Gerrard with Lucas, I think.
[/quote]

But not with any great success.

 

[Le Chacal]

When they were all fit, Kenny played them like that in a couple of games:

Lucas-Gerrard
------Meireles

-------Torres

 

[Fabio]

Wasn't everyone criminally poor in that game though? and wasnt gerrard carrying a knock

 

[Pesam]

The fact is that a Gerrard/Lucas centre midfield has been tried (too) regularly over the last couple of seasons and the pairing has failed more often than not. Given that Gerrard is a definite starter when fit 2 questions arise; will Kenny still put his faith in this pairing again (I hope not) and if he does and we have a poor start to the season how long will kenny persevere with Lucas?

 

[gene hughes]

How much do people think Lucas would fetch this summer if we were to put him on the market?