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Lucas to be better than Masher very soon

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[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45327.msg1332107#msg1332107 date=1305220529]
Granted, but that's the problem.

I think he's done a fantastic job over the past few months, he's taken a lot of crp and he's steadily improved so much so that supporters look for his name in the team sheet.

But I just don't see Lucas as being a good enough DM; and if someone has to (rightly) stay home, should that be Lucas?
[/quote]

Defo. He's player of the year now in that position and is there a better one in the League? He's Brazil No5, that's a key position for them. If you can't play, there's no way they'd have him there. Lucas' problem is that as he was admittedly poor at first and people still see him that way. I remember when Carra was seen as the weak link. It takes time to change perceptions, if you don't start well.
 
I don't think you can make a like for like comparison as their games are so different.
Rafa's rigidity in positional play made the most of Masher's talents and held Lucas back.
Now under Kenny the role of "Defensive Mid" is not as strictly assigned as before, currently both Jay and Lucas are picking it up depending on who is in the position at the time. They are both freer to move forward if the play allows it.

I think we will see the best of Lucas under KK - something we might never have seen under Rafa (and I rated him) even though he bought him.

Now if only Lucas could put his Brazilian League boots back on in front of goal he would add an aspect to his game that I don't believe Masher will ever have.
 
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=45327.msg1332116#msg1332116 date=1305221693]
I don't think you can make a like for like comparison as their games are so different.
Rafa's rigidity in positional play made the most of Masher's talents and held Lucas back.
Now under Kenny the role of "Defensive Mid" is not as strictly assigned as before, currently both Jay and Lucas are picking it up depending on who is in the position at the time. They are both freer to move forward if the play allows it.

I think we will see the best of Lucas under KK - something we might never have seen under Rafa (and I rated him) even though he bought him.

Now if only Lucas could put his Brazilian League boots back on in front of goal he would add an aspect to his game that I don't believe Masher will ever have.
[/quote]

You know your football. Good post
 
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45327.msg1332107#msg1332107 date=1305220529]
Granted, but that's the problem.

I think he's done a fantastic job over the past few months, he's taken a lot of crp and he's steadily improved so much so that supporters look for his name in the team sheet.

But I just don't see Lucas as being a good enough DM; and if someone has to (rightly) stay home, should that be Lucas?
[/quote]


This DM role is a mystery. All CM should be able to defend some can just attack better. Lucas is our new supposed DM as when Stevie is fit he will play next to him and dart forward.

Our last season with Masher we shit loads of goals and he hardly protected our back four. What will be interesting is to see if replacing Jay with Stevie makes us worse defensively

I would say Lucas is first choice CM at the moment
 
[quote author=Fox link=topic=45327.msg1331959#msg1331959 date=1305211824]
I predict hardly anyone on here in 6 months time will say Masher is better than Lucas.

The rate he has improved in the last 9 months is extraordinary and very soon will be more useful to us than Masher every was.


That's it really, thank you Rafa for giving us Lucas, what a turnaround


[/quote]

what an odd post, which instead of eulogizing how well lucas is, makes people feel compelled to identify his weaknesses in comparison to a wonderful DM in Mascher. Lucs has improved but his starting point was limited, regardless of the fact that his abilities have come to the fore as a result of the different style of footballing we are playing. Lucas is good, but Mascher was and is great - I doubt that Lucas will be better.
 
[quote author=Fox link=topic=45327.msg1332042#msg1332042 date=1305215086]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=45327.msg1332016#msg1332016 date=1305213474]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=45327.msg1331959#msg1331959 date=1305211824]
I predict hardly anyone on here in 6 months time will say Masher is better than Lucas.

The rate he has improved in the last 9 months is extraordinary and very soon will be more useful to us than Masher every was.


That's it really, thank you Rafa for giving us Lucas, what a turnaround


[/quote]

He'll still be a different player to Mascherano though Fox. Masher made his name for us on the back of dynamic running, tough tackling and uncompromising defending. He had pace and swash buckling style. Lucas is the complete opposite, tried to pinch the ball from attackers, tries to position himself effectively and provide steady cover.

I like both players so lets not worry about who is better. Masher was better if the sole duty was to act as a DM.
[/quote]

I appreciate your point mate but it is very hard to find two exact type of players (bar keepers) to compare even if they play in the same position.

Let's assume that Stevie will replace Spearing then Lucas will be for us exactly what MAsher was supposed to be.

Lucas tackles and breaks up play superbly nowadays but the added bonus it he can pass forward, quickly and start an attack.

As our "deeper" CM of two he will be better for us than Masher was.


[/quote]

My only worry is that we might get over ran in midfield if Lucas is our sole DM. Plus is DM the position we want to pigeon hole him into? Above you said "Lucas will be for us exactly what MAsher was supposed to be". I don't think Lucas will better at the destroying role than Masher. Also what was Masher supposed to be? He was a world class DM for us. Yes it was a specialised role but he was great at it.

I'm stil not sure what the best scenario is. I like Lucas, just not 100% confident he will be our first choice DM next summer. If he is good stuff i'll support him through thick and thin.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
 
[quote author=red_maradona link=topic=45327.msg1332122#msg1332122 date=1305222341]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=45327.msg1331959#msg1331959 date=1305211824]
I predict hardly anyone on here in 6 months time will say Masher is better than Lucas.

The rate he has improved in the last 9 months is extraordinary and very soon will be more useful to us than Masher every was.


That's it really, thank you Rafa for giving us Lucas, what a turnaround


[/quote]

what an odd post, which instead of eulogizing how well lucas is, makes people feel compelled to identify his weaknesses in comparison to a wonderful DM in Mascher. Lucs has improved but his starting point was limited, regardless of the fact that his abilities have come to the fore as a result of the different style of footballing we are playing. Lucas is good, but Mascher was and is great - I doubt that Lucas will be better.
[/quote]

I don't know how you can say that with such certainty. When Masher was Lucas' age he was at West Ham and couldn't get a game ahead of Hayden Mullins. Lucas is still developing. Masher isn't. If he's so great why can't he start for Barca in his preferred position?
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
Just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Also, 82% of this site didn't want Roy in the first place so you must have felt like a lone soldier for some other reason.

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40552.0
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332086#msg1332086 date=1305218874]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=45327.msg1332078#msg1332078 date=1305218304]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332074#msg1332074 date=1305217848]
Fox I thoroughly agree, he's better than Masher now. People get blinded by his little legs running and slide tackles and think he's hard. Lucas is a footballer an improving one at that, come the Copa America all arguments will be resolved.
[/quote]


In some ways I admire your tenacity KK but, right now, the circumstances in which Lucas was a more valuable player than Mascher would be very rare.
[/quote]

I just call it as I see it. Mascher is all fur coat and no knickers. He got away with it for us because we had Alonso, at Barca he's been shown up for what he is, he has no one touch game at all and he'd never shift Busquets in a month of Sundays.
[/quote]

shown up for what he is? A DM/destroyer? Yeah we know what his role is/was and he's very good at it. When he had Alonso beside him we had the perfect combo. One to destroy and the other to dictate play and springboard attacks. For a lot of last season we had Masher (one to destroy) and Lucas but what was his role in this partnership?

I think Mashers short tenure at Barca has already been done to death here but he has not been shown up as you alluded to above. Barca play the one touch game til the cows come home, we didn't utilise the tippy tappy bellend football to their extent. Masher job was to win it and give it to Alonso who would spring board an attack. I think the partnership of Lucas and Masher wasn't effective. Lucas hadn't grown into the player he is now and Masher often took the onus upon himself to try and dictate play and link up defence and attack. This isn't his strong point and we suffered at times.

Finally, concerning Busquets. I don't think many players in the world would shift Busquets from that Barca team. He was also an automatic starter for Spain in the world cup while a certain Cesc Fabregas sat on the bench. Saying that doesn't infer any correlation to the talent of Fabregas. Same goes for Masher at club level with him.
 
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332131#msg1332131 date=1305222980]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
[/quote]

That is almost as bad as what Farky did to Glock.
 
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332131#msg1332131 date=1305222980]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
[/quote]

ha ha ha ha ... Now go find the June thread where I wanted Kenny and changed my mind. Please 🙂
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=45327.msg1332137#msg1332137 date=1305223384]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332131#msg1332131 date=1305222980]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
[/quote]

That is almost as bad as what Farky did to Glock.
[/quote]

The Fox / Kopking team-up on Masher has riled me.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332140#msg1332140 date=1305223603]
ha ha ha ha ... Now go find the June thread where I wanted Kenny and changed my mind. Please 🙂
[/quote]

To be fair, that thread does exist, it was more the "lone soldier" part I took exception too.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=45327.msg1332137#msg1332137 date=1305223384]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332131#msg1332131 date=1305222980]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
[/quote]

That is almost as bad as what Farky did to Glock.
[/quote]

Even when I'm wrong, I'm right who did we hire? 🙂
 
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332141#msg1332141 date=1305223646]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=45327.msg1332137#msg1332137 date=1305223384]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332131#msg1332131 date=1305222980]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
[/quote]

That is almost as bad as what Farky did to Glock.
[/quote]

The Fox / Kopking team-up on Masher has riled me.
[/quote]Yep
For a Liverpool suporter there are a few reasons to dislike Masher but his performances in a red shirt is not one of them.

Revisionism at it's worst
 
I don't like the Lucas Vs Masher debates. It's pointless. They are totally different players in my book.

Masher could marshal a defence better but Lucas probably has a better all round game.

People make out Masher is an ordinary donkey running around like a headless chicken. He was excellent for us, he is captain of Argentina and Barca and Inter wanted to sign him in the summer for 20million.

He has left and fucked us over in the process. Let's move on and allow Lucas develop as himself.

Simples.
 
[quote author=the count link=topic=45327.msg1332149#msg1332149 date=1305224035]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332141#msg1332141 date=1305223646]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=45327.msg1332137#msg1332137 date=1305223384]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332131#msg1332131 date=1305222980]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
[/quote]

That is almost as bad as what Farky did to Glock.
[/quote]

The Fox / Kopking team-up on Masher has riled me.
[/quote]Yep
For a Liverpool suporter there are a few reasons to dislike Masher but his performances in a red shirt is not one of them.

Revisionism at it's worst
[/quote]

Come now lads, be fair. I didn't say he was poor. He's just one dimensional.
 
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332141#msg1332141 date=1305223646]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=45327.msg1332137#msg1332137 date=1305223384]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332131#msg1332131 date=1305222980]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
[/quote]

That is almost as bad as what Farky did to Glock.
[/quote]

The Fox / Kopking team-up on Masher has riled me.
[/quote]

KK is a decent poster and seems to be posting a lot more lately which is good but he seems to be a bit over defensive of Lucas.
 
[quote author=Fox link=topic=45327.msg1332120#msg1332120 date=1305222154]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45327.msg1332107#msg1332107 date=1305220529]
Granted, but that's the problem.

I think he's done a fantastic job over the past few months, he's taken a lot of crp and he's steadily improved so much so that supporters look for his name in the team sheet.

But I just don't see Lucas as being a good enough DM; and if someone has to (rightly) stay home, should that be Lucas?
[/quote]


This DM role is a mystery. All CM should be able to defend some can just attack better. Lucas is our new supposed DM as when Stevie is fit he will play next to him and dart forward.

Our last season with Masher we shit loads of goals and he hardly protected our back four. What will be interesting is to see if replacing Jay with Stevie makes us worse defensively

I would say Lucas is first choice CM at the moment
[/quote]

I think this is kind of the point that you and Kopking are making; ie that DM's are more of a label than anything, and that all central midfelders shold be able to defend. That's fine to an extent, but that works if you think the scope of the defensive midfielder has changed.

I don't think it has completely because defensive midfielders in the destroyer mould (for want of a better word) will always play a very important part especially when you're playing against teams stronger than you.

That's why people like Hamann and Makelele wll always be useful.

Kopking : your point about Masher and Busquets is a fair one, but come on mate...that Barca team has probably the greatest strikeforce in the world..not many teams are going to blitz through that midfield so the need for a typical DM in the Masher mould becomes non-existent.

I do agree though that with the right type of players and formation you can employ a more fluid style of play, and it's a good shout to suggest that Lucas would fit into Kenny's style a little better than Masher.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332154#msg1332154 date=1305224253]
[quote author=the count link=topic=45327.msg1332149#msg1332149 date=1305224035]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332141#msg1332141 date=1305223646]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=45327.msg1332137#msg1332137 date=1305223384]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332131#msg1332131 date=1305222980]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
[/quote]

That is almost as bad as what Farky did to Glock.
[/quote]

The Fox / Kopking team-up on Masher has riled me.
[/quote]Yep
For a Liverpool suporter there are a few reasons to dislike Masher but his performances in a red shirt is not one of them.

Revisionism at it's worst
[/quote]

Come now lads, be fair. I didn't say he was poor. He's just one dimensional.
[/quote]Yea, and that fecking Pepe Reina lad is only good at being a goalkeeper.
Remember how shit he was when he played in midfield for us
 
One for the jargon thread -

Kopkinging - being very belligerent on a specific topic only to be refugeed
Refugeed - spending fucking ages digging out someones post from months ago simply to make a complete arse out of someone
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=45327.msg1332157#msg1332157 date=1305224331]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332141#msg1332141 date=1305223646]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=45327.msg1332137#msg1332137 date=1305223384]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332131#msg1332131 date=1305222980]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
[/quote]

That is almost as bad as what Farky did to Glock.
[/quote]

The Fox / Kopking team-up on Masher has riled me.
[/quote]

KK is a decent poster and seems to be posting a lot more lately which is good but he seems to be a bit over defensive of Lucas.
[/quote]

Probably, but when he's been referred to as a cunt, is it really that over-defensive? I admit I do like a debate and we're debating, but I shall say no more on the matter

And thanks. 🙂
 
I've know idea why people call Lucas a cunt. The lad may not be brilliant and he has shite games like all our players do but it can't be said that he doesn't try and he really wants to succeed at the club. Unlike players like Mascherano who refuse to wear the shirt. That's the sign of a proper cunt. Bucktoothed cunt.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=45327.msg1332165#msg1332165 date=1305224571]
One for the jargon thread -

Kopkinging - being very belligerent on a specific topic only to be refugeed
Refugeed - spending fucking ages digging out someones post from months ago simply to make a complete arse out of someone


[/quote]

Ha ha ha ha ha.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332167#msg1332167 date=1305224632]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=45327.msg1332157#msg1332157 date=1305224331]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332141#msg1332141 date=1305223646]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=45327.msg1332137#msg1332137 date=1305223384]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=45327.msg1332131#msg1332131 date=1305222980]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45327.msg1332094#msg1332094 date=1305219473]
I wont harp on about it, I've made my position clear. When you all agree with me, you probably won't remember I told you so, just like I said in July we should bring back King Kenny, Roy was out of his depth and Joe Cole was a poor signing I felt like a lonely soldier. But y'all will come round of that I have no doubt 🙂
[/quote]

Don't expect any sympathy when you made quotes like this

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630 date=1272801183]
Sack Benitez? Benitez should sack Liverpool. For the record if he does go, I'd want Roy Hodgson.
[/quote]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=40013.msg1097630#msg1097630
[/quote]

That is almost as bad as what Farky did to Glock.
[/quote]

The Fox / Kopking team-up on Masher has riled me.
[/quote]

KK is a decent poster and seems to be posting a lot more lately which is good but he seems to be a bit over defensive of Lucas.
[/quote]

Probably, but when he's been referred to as a cunt, is it really that over-defensive? I admit I do like a debate and we're debating, but I shall say no more on the matter

And thanks. 🙂
[/quote]

Not many called him a cunt bar one poster who is MIA.

No hassle. (insert hand shake smiley thingy yoke here)
 
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