He has a sell on clause for 175m in 2024 and 150m 2025 so they won't be getting 400m when psg, Madrid or Barcelona come calling in a few years time
Klopp's Reaction
- Thread starter LeTallecWiz
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I’d expect a player who is top tier to have a decent first touch since their teenage years. It is one of the basics.
First touch to an extent can come and go with confidence - I’ve seen Darwin execute superb first touches before, but it’s far harder when you’re feeling under pressure in a new environment. I know when I’m nervous I feel a lot clumsier. Like I said before, I’m not worried about Darwin’s first touch - it will be fine when he’s up to speed and settled. The weaknesses in his game are link-up play and sometimes his feet seem to do things independently of his brain - he needs to learn to be more deliberate and not just play on instinct.
… an equal and opposite ….
Crouch tells a story about Gerrard in training. The first thing he does to a new player is drill the ball into them as hard as he can to test the first touch. Not that it has any resemblance to your post, it just reminded me of it.
Or show the standards that are required. Not that it helped with the dross they played with at times.
That's the point exactly and it's not as if it wasn't known beforehand as there was countless YouTube videos highlighting it. It was brought up on here many times before the deal went through. Its not just a heavy touch, it's downright terrible at times for a top footballer. That you would think is a basic skill. Lovren is probably the only player who has been worse in the last 10 years
I still think the crux of the issue is Robertson and Trent. Not that either are bad players, though the form of both has slipped alarmingly.
I think Robbo has declined a bit in recent seasons, he's no longer putting in the quality from wide that he once did. This is pretty much an energy thing, like he can still get up there but putting in that level of quality is just too much, having made the run. He's not the attacker he was, but is still a good defender. But he's been trying to adjust to not having Mane infront of him. Diaz is no slouch and gets stuck in, but he does that from a more advanced position, Mane would cover back quite alot into the left back position to help Robbo, and they would overlap at ease with each other.
Trent has never been a great defender, but had a good understanding between Salah and Henderson. Hendo is injured and/or ageing, Salah's role has diminished and changed somewhat, and as has Trent's. I feel like Klopp has pushed it and pushed it with the highline. He's expected more and more in terms of how high up the pitch we push to compress the play and how advanced Trent plays. I don't think it's all laziness, I think the more advanced Trent has got, the less defensively inclined he's been.
Teams are just looking at our highline and seeing it as easy fodder, because it is. Just put a ball into the space on the flank, or bypass the midfield with a well timed pass to a well timed run and you're in. Once we played the offside trap to perfection, with the best sweeper keeper in the business mopping up. Now the timing isn't there so much. Players are switching off, teams are getting better at breaking the trap and so on.
Klopp has to have a rethink. I admire that he persists with his systems in the knowledge that eventually it will work again, but the issue is when the personnel aren't there to execute it well. When you're team isn't quite functioning in tandem, it all falls apart. We've always been the sum of our parts, rather than a team who relies solely on excellent players and match winning individuals. Our success has been more mechanical, more team based than having the luxury of just buying the best players and knowing you'll always have someone who will pull something out of the bag. And that's where it's gone wrong. A few slips in performances, a high percentage of underperformers and the system falters with devastating effect. Not just slipping to narrow defeats, but looking like you're one step away from an absolute battering, as we got against United and Napoli. It's been coming. It's happened before when people haven't had their heads right. 5-0 v City, shipping 7 at Villa, the potential is always there for it to go horribly wrong. Sometimes we look/hope that precision will finally come back into effect, the motors will start up again and we'll find a way. I just don't see it at the minute. Even with some of our returning stars, there's a spark that's not there. Thanks in no small part to the decline of Henderson and VVD (as well as the aforementioned fullbacks issue), the departure of Mane and some pretty shoddy backing from FSG.
Klopp is a magnificent manager, but he's not so pragmatic as other greats have been. Even Pep. He has one way and he will persist with it even if the players aren't there. To me, Klopp would sooner write off a season and not disrupt his system in the hope of a longterm gain, than sacrifice his ethos for a quick fix. I expect this season to be very much one of transition, we just have to hope that we don't fall too far behind.
Really good point about the Mané/Robbo combo dissolution and how it’s affecting Robbo. I’m sure Klopp will see this and rectify it with getting them to work more as a pair in training etc. The combo with Mané was great. Another reason that Mané will be missed. As much as he was rated by many, he was still underrated.
If, by that, you mean Traoré, then no.
We've lost 6 competitive games in 2022 out of 70 odd.
There will be a solution to this temporary loss of form and I'd back Klopp, his staff and the players to find it sooner rather than later.
All this navel gazing will lead to overreacting as is evident here. Hopefully the staff focus on what is supposed to be a 'simple game'.
How swiftly we move from believers to doubters.
There will be a solution to this temporary loss of form and I'd back Klopp, his staff and the players to find it sooner rather than later.
All this navel gazing will lead to overreacting as is evident here. Hopefully the staff focus on what is supposed to be a 'simple game'.
How swiftly we move from believers to doubters.
This is probably one of the pest posts I've read on this. Pretty much nails it. Alot of what you said I've felt for a long time.
I have a slightly different take on why we’re struggling and it’s not just down to ageing players or lack of signings.
I’ll contend that the problem is more to do with trying to integrate new players and develop new and different patterns of play.
Klopp’s Liverpool success was based on creating space for key components to influence the game - Firmino playing through the centre, but dropping deep to create space in behind by pulling CB’s out of position for Mane & Salah to run into from their respective wide positions. Mane and Salah didnt’t provide the width, but their movement inside created space for Trent and Robbo to operate in and be our most potent creative outlets.
This was all underpinned by a solid, workmanlike midfield of Gini, Hendo & Fabinho who’s role was to run, press, obtain possession and retain possession - hence very little creativity and lots is simple sideways, low risk passes.
The high line worked because very few teams could play through us, had little time on the ball and were forced into playing longer balls with a lower completion percentage that our CB’s marshalled by Van Dijk and Alison could mop up.
It works great against teams that either play a high line against us or don’t press well.
However, things changed when more teams started getting better at pressing, deploying the low block and latterly playing 3 at the back.
The first change we made was to replace Gini with Thiago - now this works because he’s up there with the best midfielders in the world - he can press, tackle and his creative ability is outstanding.
It also didn’t significantly change the balance of the team - we slotted Jota in to the middle striker role as well and that also worked because he’s got good movement and is great at finding space.
It’s great, but it’s also predictable and you could see how anxious we were getting trying to break down packed defences.
The problem we have now is that we’ve moved away all that to try something different and I think we’ve fucked up.
The underlying principle of modern football seems to be, try to make the playing space as small as possible when you’re defending and as wide as possible while you’re attacking.
Diaz & Salah are staying out wide more and not making the runs inside that Mane & Salah used to make - that has to be by design.
They’re both dangerous enough that teams know they need to double up on them - so by staying out wide, I presume it means it’s a tactic to try an pull one of the CB’s over to that side and create more space in the centre for Nunez to operate in.
I think that’s why Firmino can struggle - because he’s still coming deep, but the other two strikers aren’t going narrow in behind him anymore - so they all look disjointed.
In addition - the old pattern of play used to be perfectly symmetrical and I think we’ve tried to vary that now.
On the right, again this has to be by design, Trent is the one coming inside to operate in the half space. Again I think Harvey playing in midfield as a more creative attacking option moving out wide to work with Salah is designed to drag opposition defenders out there and create space for Trent to supply the ammunition for Nunez on the right side.
The problem there is it leaves us with no right back as Trent is practically playing as a midfielder. The additional problem is that Harvey isn’t getting tackle in or breaking up opposition play - so they’re getting more time to pick out accurate passes or play through us.
On the left, let’s pretend Thiago is fit - he operates in the left half space, with Diaz staying out wide more than Mane used to - this kind of leaves Robbo with no-where to move in to - if Diaz runs inside it, Nunez isn’t sure what to do because they’re operating in the same space and if he doesn’t, then he’s in the area Robbo would normally run in to.
During the close season we talked about how Haaland might impact City’s patterns of play, but it doesn’t seem to be an issues - probably because it wasn’t that long ago that they were used to Aguero being that focal striker.
For us, I think the introduction of Nunez has fucked our patterns of play in the way we hoped Haaland would for City - we’ve never had a central focal striker under Klopp - he fucked Benteke & Carroll off the minute he arrived and even Lord Divock couldn’t convince Klopp to play him regularly despite saving football single handedly and making the world a better place
A shortened pre-season, injuries, sending offs, etc will all contribute to this - but as it stands we’re self-harming on a Brexit-scale level by neutering Salah by keeping him out wide, playing Harvey when he’s bypassed so easily in midfield (and I like Harvey and want to see him succeed, but it’s killing us right now) and relying on Nunez to rip teams apart.
I don’t know how it’s fixed - we either revert to old patterns of play and put the Nunez project on the back burner or suck it up and plough on until it starts to work and risk fucking the entire season up.
It’s a mess at the moment either way - I suppose small steps would be getting Thiago back, replacing Harvey with Hendo (when fit) or Arthur, dropping Nunez to the bench and getting Salah & to move inside more and pull Trent into a more traditional RB role - but that all feels like a regression in a way.
I’ll contend that the problem is more to do with trying to integrate new players and develop new and different patterns of play.
Klopp’s Liverpool success was based on creating space for key components to influence the game - Firmino playing through the centre, but dropping deep to create space in behind by pulling CB’s out of position for Mane & Salah to run into from their respective wide positions. Mane and Salah didnt’t provide the width, but their movement inside created space for Trent and Robbo to operate in and be our most potent creative outlets.
This was all underpinned by a solid, workmanlike midfield of Gini, Hendo & Fabinho who’s role was to run, press, obtain possession and retain possession - hence very little creativity and lots is simple sideways, low risk passes.
The high line worked because very few teams could play through us, had little time on the ball and were forced into playing longer balls with a lower completion percentage that our CB’s marshalled by Van Dijk and Alison could mop up.
It works great against teams that either play a high line against us or don’t press well.
However, things changed when more teams started getting better at pressing, deploying the low block and latterly playing 3 at the back.
The first change we made was to replace Gini with Thiago - now this works because he’s up there with the best midfielders in the world - he can press, tackle and his creative ability is outstanding.
It also didn’t significantly change the balance of the team - we slotted Jota in to the middle striker role as well and that also worked because he’s got good movement and is great at finding space.
It’s great, but it’s also predictable and you could see how anxious we were getting trying to break down packed defences.
The problem we have now is that we’ve moved away all that to try something different and I think we’ve fucked up.
The underlying principle of modern football seems to be, try to make the playing space as small as possible when you’re defending and as wide as possible while you’re attacking.
Diaz & Salah are staying out wide more and not making the runs inside that Mane & Salah used to make - that has to be by design.
They’re both dangerous enough that teams know they need to double up on them - so by staying out wide, I presume it means it’s a tactic to try an pull one of the CB’s over to that side and create more space in the centre for Nunez to operate in.
I think that’s why Firmino can struggle - because he’s still coming deep, but the other two strikers aren’t going narrow in behind him anymore - so they all look disjointed.
In addition - the old pattern of play used to be perfectly symmetrical and I think we’ve tried to vary that now.
On the right, again this has to be by design, Trent is the one coming inside to operate in the half space. Again I think Harvey playing in midfield as a more creative attacking option moving out wide to work with Salah is designed to drag opposition defenders out there and create space for Trent to supply the ammunition for Nunez on the right side.
The problem there is it leaves us with no right back as Trent is practically playing as a midfielder. The additional problem is that Harvey isn’t getting tackle in or breaking up opposition play - so they’re getting more time to pick out accurate passes or play through us.
On the left, let’s pretend Thiago is fit - he operates in the left half space, with Diaz staying out wide more than Mane used to - this kind of leaves Robbo with no-where to move in to - if Diaz runs inside it, Nunez isn’t sure what to do because they’re operating in the same space and if he doesn’t, then he’s in the area Robbo would normally run in to.
During the close season we talked about how Haaland might impact City’s patterns of play, but it doesn’t seem to be an issues - probably because it wasn’t that long ago that they were used to Aguero being that focal striker.
For us, I think the introduction of Nunez has fucked our patterns of play in the way we hoped Haaland would for City - we’ve never had a central focal striker under Klopp - he fucked Benteke & Carroll off the minute he arrived and even Lord Divock couldn’t convince Klopp to play him regularly despite saving football single handedly and making the world a better place
A shortened pre-season, injuries, sending offs, etc will all contribute to this - but as it stands we’re self-harming on a Brexit-scale level by neutering Salah by keeping him out wide, playing Harvey when he’s bypassed so easily in midfield (and I like Harvey and want to see him succeed, but it’s killing us right now) and relying on Nunez to rip teams apart.
I don’t know how it’s fixed - we either revert to old patterns of play and put the Nunez project on the back burner or suck it up and plough on until it starts to work and risk fucking the entire season up.
It’s a mess at the moment either way - I suppose small steps would be getting Thiago back, replacing Harvey with Hendo (when fit) or Arthur, dropping Nunez to the bench and getting Salah & to move inside more and pull Trent into a more traditional RB role - but that all feels like a regression in a way.
Agree with some of that, but playing with a central striker and making it work is not something new for Klopp, I mean he is the one that got his dortmund team to play with Rob.L, so if anyone should know how to utilise a central striker it should be Klopp. However, is Nunez actually a central striker type who is supposed to be the focal point ? Or is he really a left sided forward minus all the technical ability ? Heard from different channels that most of his goals last season came from him operating on the left side.
On thr matter of it being an integration issue as the main reason, I think most people will disagree, the midfield we have is not dynamic or pacey enough to support the front players. The age factor for both Milner and Henderson is now in play to the point where I think it's not good enough for the role of the midfield that Klopp desires.
Bollocks to the age thing for Henderson - he’s the same age as Gundogan.
Milner is Fernandinho and should be used sparingly.
It’s not about the individuals - it’s about the system.
If Nunez wasn’t bought to operate as a central striker, then he shouldn’t have been bought full stop - we already had Diaz & Jota to operate on the left & bought Carvalho to play there too - Nunez is, at the minute, an expensive and ineffective replacement for Origi.
Delighted to be proved wrong - but I think we fucked that one up.
I don't. He's only 22 FFS and other top level clubs were also after him. He was bought to play as he has been playing for Porto, a central striker who can also drift out left when the front three interchange. A fair few on here are going to have their words fed back to them by this lad, you wait and see.
I sincerely hope I’m wrong - but if he was bought as a central attacker who’ll drift out left then, he isn’t doing what he’s told, or Diaz isn’t doing what he’s told and moving inside.
Regardless - he’s not the player we needed to sign - and I’m none the wiser on who we should have signed instead.
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You're wrong, and Nunez has played effectively 2,5 games for us. Knowing that he's not the player we needed to sign after such a short period of time is just knee jerking. Which is something we're good at (SCM) obviously and in a time and age were we demand that everything works from day 1.
Can't believe there are idiots calling for Klopp's head
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