Klopp's Reaction

[rurikbird]

I missed the game live, but went back and watched the recording of the first half, already knowing the result. It's never a good sign when there isn't a simple answer to a question "what's wrong with this team" – we seem to have major problems popping up from all sides, such as lack of physicality (being consistently outrun and losing too many 1 on 1 duels), attitude of several players (much too casual, not making sprints in attack and even more lazy in defence), long-term squad-building (midfield has needed a rebuild for 2 years and we still haven't even started), inexplicably poor form of certain key players, injuries and even Klopp's decisions are now coming into question. The sample size is now big enough to see that the team – bar Diaz, Elliott and Alisson – is in a rut and there is a danger of it snowballing.

The only solution is systematically fixing these problems one by one – but step one must be mentality, attitude and energy. The biggest difference between Napoli and us was in that extra bit of sharpness and aggression that they had and we were so clearly lacking. They problem-solved and we went through the motions. We were stuck inside our own heads, trying to fall into our comfortable patterns of play, when they were laser-focused on us – on hurting us as much as possible with every pass and every decision. In its essence Klopp's football is based on being sharper, more energetic and opportunistic than the opponent – and if we're suddenly second-best in those qualities then all of the tactical systems that were designed to make full use of that fundamental advantage simply stop working.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

When i saw that video of us going for a stroll in Naples, i knew we were gonna lose. Yes, obviously it could just be a short walk from the carpark to the hotel or something.

But that's the general perception i get about our start to the season so far. We're playing like we're still in pre-season mode.

Lackadaisical, can't be arsed attitude.

I've lost count the number of times i've seen Trent stroll around the pitch this season, like a peacock. Him and his mate, Joe Go both look stoned every game.

 

[mom]

I missed the game live, but went back and watched the recording of the first half, already knowing the result. It's never a good sign when there isn't a simple answer to a question "what's wrong with this team" – we seem to have major problems popping up from all sides, such as lack of physicality (being consistently outrun and losing too many 1 on 1 duels), attitude of several players (much too casual, not making sprints in attack and even more lazy in defence), long-term squad-building (midfield has needed a rebuild for 2 years and we still haven't even started), inexplicably poor form of certain key players, injuries and even Klopp's decisions are now coming into question. The sample size is now big enough to see that the team – bar Diaz, Elliott and Alisson – is in a rut and there is a danger of it snowballing.

The only solution is systematically fixing these problems one by one – but step one must be mentality, attitude and energy. The biggest difference between Napoli and us was in that extra bit of sharpness and aggression that they had and we were so clearly lacking. They problem-solved and we went through the motions. We were stuck inside our own heads, trying to fall into our comfortable patterns of play, when they were laser-focused on us – on hurting us as much as possible with every pass and every decision. In its essence Klopp's football is based on being sharper, more energetic and opportunistic than the opponent – and if we're suddenly second-best in those qualities then all of the tactical systems that were designed to make full use of that fundamental advantage simply stop working.

Excellent post, and I agree with every word. The second paragraph is key right now. Stats are one thing, but sometimes folk rely on them overly so. There’s not a stat for mentality and attitude. And they’re absolutely key. It’s been a poor start to the season and the rut you mention seems to have gathered a little more momentum than we would have liked to admit. Part of this is clearly down to the players, but a lot of it is on Klopp to turn this around. Be it through Klopp hugs or hairdryers.

 

[The Nomad]

I don't know why anyone's surprised.. Klopps teams can't beat Napoli in Naples. We'll get them at home instead.

2018 loss
2019 loss
2022 was always going to be a loss.

 

[HC]

Change the system - 4/5/1 , reset and go again

 

[mom]

Change the system - 4/5/1 , reset and go again

Really can’t see him going for that. The 433 has worked wonders for years now so a bad run is unlikely to change Klopp’s mind. Bad half season? Perhaps, but even then…

 

[LeTallecWiz]

I liked Klopps reaction and think he'll reinvent us for the Wolves game. Not sure what he'll cook up but I think this Napoli game will be the one that changes our approach and gets us going again.
We wont see a shitshow like that were the team doesnt seem to function.

I'd play our best team available but with Klopps change of approach. Whether thats a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-2-2, maybe the last one to get Salah more central and more involved.
We're a completely different team with Thiago starting.

Alisson
Trent Matip Virgil Robbo
Elliott Fabinho Thiago
Salah Firmino Diaz


Klopp is one of the best managers in the World. He'll get it right once again but I think this season will be a transition in terms of going from the last successful team we had to the next. That is pretty clear at this point.
Where we end up in the table or cups comps will depend on how Klopp reinvents us.
No doubt it will be very interesting to see and follow during the next months.

The World cup break will actually be good for our team.

How is that team a 'reinvention'?
You've just selected the same team that looked they weren't able to compete with Fulham for large chunks of the game.
Trent needs to drop - I don't care if it's Ramsay or GOmez, give him a second to realize he needs to earn his spot back.
Same with Robbo.
Jota should be our #9 (or Nunez) - Bobby is a bench player.
We need to tweak the system to ensure Salah has chances to get shots on goal - the current set up is keeping him way too isolated and I think that's driving his bad form this year.

 

[mom]

How is that team a 'reinvention'?
You've just selected the same team that looked they weren't able to compete with Fulham for large chunks of the game.
Trent needs to drop - I don't care if it's Ramsay or GOmez, give him a second to realize he needs to earn his spot back.
Same with Robbo.
Jota should be our #9 (or Nunez) - Bobby is a bench player.
We need to tweak the system to ensure Salah has chances to get shots on goal - the current set up is keeping him way too isolated and I think that's driving his bad form this year.

I agree with most of that. I’ve said a few times that both full backs need dropping right now, although at least Robbo puts the effort in, moreso than Trent.
Salah is wasted at the moment. He doesn’t suddenly become a poor player overnight.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

I agree with most of that. I’ve said a few times that both full backs need dropping right now, although at least Robbo puts the effort in, moreso than Trent.
Salah is wasted at the moment. He doesn’t suddenly become a poor player overnight.

Yah Robbo's issue isn't effort - he's giving 100%, I think he's mentally tired (which is fine).
If Trent was giving Robbo's effort, no one would be complaining imo as the big issue is that.

 

[Buddha]

He had a terrible half, after being imo, one of our better - if not best (not saying much) - defender since the season's start.
If you think TAA deserves to be starting in any position in a red shirt the next match after the absolute shit show of a start to a season, you need help.
So who's starting for him? Milner? You need help. Ramsay? Ok, I can go with this - but Gomez is our only opton currently.

But you can say you want TAA to start and that will make you happy ...

I haven’t said I wanted TAA to start - My post was about Gomez.

Fwiw I haven’t agreed with the general perception (it seems) about Gomez, that he’s been playing well. He came on for a clearly struggling Nat against Palace and we improved, but in general he’s looked strangely slow in thought, meek in the tackle and caught under too many balls (as usual). He looks a shadow of the player he promised to be a couple of seasons ago and, given VVD’s dip in form, makes me wonder how much of that was down to playing alongside an impervious player in VVD at the time.

Re Trent, he looks both psychologically and physically knackered in the same way that Mo, VVD, Robbo, Fabs all do. That core bunch of players played an unprecedented amount of games last season (Mo especially) under a huge amount of pressure. From a psychological perspective, it’s natural that they’re not starting the season with the usual freshness and pep. Of course, Gomez doesn’t have that excuse at all and I thought he was abysmal last night, a joke of a performance.

What to do? We’ve had a nightmare with injuries (another overhang of last year?) that have scuppered anything straightforward. But the fact remains that some players need a proper break and need to be rotated in and out of games right now. For Trent, I’d be tempted to play Tsimikas at right back here and there, he has a right foot after all, and then promote a youth player to the 60 min sub role for now. For the rest, injuries are resolving (Thiago / Jota etc) but we’ll have to bite the bullet for a few games and play the likes of Bajetic etc.

And Milner shouldn’t be anywhere near any starting 11 for us bar dead rubbers.

 

[The Nomad]

I really don't know why we haven't gone for 4-2-3-1.. maybe that's what he's gone for Arthur for.. to have a Fabs and Arthur base.

He's talked about reinventing.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

I haven’t said I wanted TAA to start - My post was about Gomez.

Fwiw I haven’t agreed with the general perception (it seems) about Gomez, that he’s been playing well. He came on for a clearly struggling Nat against Palace and we improved, but in general he’s looked strangely slow in thought, meek in the tackle and caught under too many balls (as usual). He looks a shadow of the player he promised to be a couple of seasons ago and, given VVD’s dip in form, makes me wonder how much of that was down to playing alongside an impervious player in VVD at the time.

Re Trent, he looks both psychologically and physically knackered in the same way that Mo, VVD, Robbo, Fabs all do. That core bunch of players played an unprecedented amount of games last season (Mo especially) under a huge amount of pressure. From a psychological perspective, it’s natural that they’re not starting the season with the usual freshness and pep. Of course, Gomez doesn’t have that excuse at all and I thought he was abysmal last night, a joke of a performance.

What to do? We’ve had a nightmare with injuries (another overhang of last year?) that have scuppered anything straightforward. But the fact remains that some players need a proper break and need to be rotated in and out of games right now. For Trent, I’d be tempted to play Tsimikas at right back here and there, he has a right foot after all, and then promote a youth player to the 60 min sub role for now. For the rest, injuries are resolving (Thiago / Jota etc) but we’ll have to bite the bullet for a few games and play the likes of Bajetic etc.

And Milner shouldn’t be anywhere near any starting 11 for us bar dead rubbers.

That's fair mate - I think he has been among the better players.
I also think he's a) fresher and b) played well at RB in the run in last year.
If I judge him on yesterday, I'd never play him again.
HOwever, I feel he can give us more effort and defensive stability than Trent currently ...

"But the fact remains that some players need a proper break and need to be rotated in and out of games right now."
Someone said earlier this week that the key is to get to the World Cup within striking range of 4th (1st is a pipe dream imo) as we'll be able to rest tons of regulars and that's what I think now ...

Tsimikas at RB? Hmmm ok, so in order of preference 🙂

1) Tsimikas
2) Gomez
3) Ramsay
4) TAA

 

[Squiggles]

It's been clear for long enough now that the legs or the will simply are not there for a high line, high intensity 433.

Klopp needs to start being more flexible tactically based on the squad he has available. Even when we had no CBs he tried to put midfielders back there and play the same way. It failed.

Now we're still trying to play the same way with a cobbled together midfield and a declining defense. Same result.

We should do what we need to return to getting clean sheets and go from there.

 

[mom]

Yah Robbo's issue isn't effort - he's giving 100%, I think he's mentally tired (which is fine).
If Trent was giving Robbo's effort, no one would be complaining imo as the big issue is that.

Yep. Playing for the club is enough to warrant absolute commitment and effort, but the pay packet that comes with it should seal the deal.

 

[mom]

It's been clear for long enough now that the legs or the will simply are not there for a high line, high intensity 433.

Klopp needs to start being more flexible tactically based on the squad he has available. Even when we had no CBs he tried to put midfielders back there and play the same way. It failed.

Now we're still trying to play the same way with a cobbled together midfield and a declining defense. Same result.

We should do what we need to return to getting clean sheets and go from there.

Klopp will look at last year and see just what his 433 system can achieve. Once he has more players available and fully match fit, last year will be his reasoning for sticking with it 433.
I can’t see him shifting from it unless a fully available and match fit squad fails with 433 for a prolonged run.

 

[Fabio]

451 is a must now.

Ramsay needs to come in. If he's not fit, Mabaya needs to come in. Trent should not be starting for us until his fucking attitude is fixed.

Robertson should be dropped for tsimi.

Salah dropped for Elliott.

Midfield has to be fabs and arthur/thiago with Fabio (when fit). Can Arthur play as the AM?

Centre backs...I don't even fucking know..van dijk seems fucked, so ideally I'd try ibou and matip, but until ibou is back I guess it's van dijk.

Striker; start Darwin and persist. Jota comes on as a sub when we need a change. We can't expect miracles and expect the team to just know how to play with Darwin if we don't consistently play him

 

[Beamrider]

It’s just typical. Every season when we get off to a good start it gets disrupted after 3 games by an international break. The one year we get off to a shit start and could make good use of the break to reset we have to wait until mid-September. With the winter World Cup all competitions need an asterisk this year.

 

[Fabio]

We needed open heart surgery this summer and all we've done is get a very expensive facelift

 

[Aidan O' Neill]

It's been clear for long enough now that the legs or the will simply are not there for a high line, high intensity 433.

Klopp needs to start being more flexible tactically based on the squad he has available. Even when we had no CBs he tried to put midfielders back there and play the same way. It failed.

Now we're still trying to play the same way with a cobbled together midfield and a declining defense. Same result.

We should do what we need to return to getting clean sheets and go from there.

The stubbornness is a little strange given his Dortmund team (which I obviously saw a lot less of) looked for a a 4-2-3-1 with Lewandowski playing right up top. Obviously the game has moved on but you would think a variation of that could be tried.

 

[Hansern]

Questions have to be asked about our pre season preparations.
We look unfit and not ready for a new season.

 

[bluebell]

I agree with most of that. I’ve said a few times that both full backs need dropping right now, although at least Robbo puts the effort in, moreso than Trent.
Salah is wasted at the moment. He doesn’t suddenly become a poor player overnight.

Not overnight. He has been under performing since the Afcon. His issue might more psychological than physical but seems to have lost some pace.

 

[Frogfish]

I missed the game live, but went back and watched the recording of the first half, already knowing the result. It's never a good sign when there isn't a simple answer to a question "what's wrong with this team" – we seem to have major problems popping up from all sides, such as lack of physicality (being consistently outrun and losing too many 1 on 1 duels), attitude of several players (much too casual, not making sprints in attack and even more lazy in defence) ... inexplicably poor form of certain key players, injuries and even Klopp's decisions are now coming into question ...

The longer this goes on the more it seems like physically, maybe due to the shortened Summer, the players have hit a brick wall. It's not difficult to up your energy levels if you have it within you. It seems however that they don't, the pressing, the chasing, tackling have all fallen off a cliff. If that is the case, and of course I'm just hypothesising, then the World Cup break can't get here soon enough.

 

[Frogfish]

Questions have to be asked about our pre season preparations.
We look unfit and not ready for a new season.

Ah yep. You got there first.

 

[Frogfish]

We needed open heart surgery this summer and all we've done is get a very expensive facelift

Hahaha!

 

[Brizzle]

There is a lot of talk about physical fatigue but not enough about mental fatigue.

Last season we played every game possible and lost the CL by a tiny margin and the league by a tiny margin (again). During that season our star player (who now has a fat contract) took the weight of responsibility for his who country in the AFCON and then the WC Qualifiers and lost both.

We have key players who have played almost every game for the last 4-5 years in the same position, of the same system. Trent, Robbo, Salah, Fabs, VVD etc. Our tactics haven't evolved, we've just tried to execute them better each season. After a while it is human nature to get bored of doing the same old thing. You can see if from all of these already. It is very clear Trent doesn't want to be a RB any more, when was the last time he overlapped Salah to the byline and pulled the ball back into the box? He rarely passes the edge of the box now, more interested in getting the chance to score worldies.

On top of all of this - teams we face have years of video replays they can watch to understand our tactics down to a tee, and how each of our key players plays to a tee. Salah - gonna cut in on his left. Trent, going to whip it in early. VVD, going to ping it cross field to Mo. etc.

We either need to do a better job of changing the personnel in these roles of our predictable (but effective when executed well) system, or change the system.

 

[Frogfish]

The stubbornness is a little strange given his Dortmund team (which I obviously saw a lot less of) looked for a a 4-2-3-1 with Lewandowski playing right up top. Obviously the game has moved on but you would think a variation of that could be tried.

Klopp claims that although nominally we play 4-3-3 that can undergo multiple permutations during a match. I don't see it but then I'm not as tactically astute as someone like Rurik.

------------ Fabinho ------------- Thiago

Salah ------ Carvalho / Elliott / Melo ---------- Diaz

-------------------- Nunez / Jota

Is absolutely worth a try at this moment in time to stop the rot.

 

[Frogfish]

There is a lot of talk about physical fatigue but not enough about mental fatigue.

Last season we played every game possible and lost the CL by a tiny margin and the league by a tiny margin (again). During that season our star player (who now has a fat contract) took the weight of responsibility for his who country in the AFCON and then the WC Qualifiers and lost both.

We have key players who have played almost every game for the last 4-5 years in the same position, of the same system. Trent, Robbo, Salah, Fabs, VVD etc. Our tactics haven't evolved, we've just tried to execute them better each season. After a while it is human nature to get bored of doing the same old thing. You can see if from all of these already. It is very clear Trent doesn't want to be a RB any more, when was the last time he overlapped Salah to the byline and pulled the ball back into the box? He rarely passes the edge of the box now, more interested in getting the chance to score worldies.

On top of all of this - teams we face have years of video replays they can watch to understand our tactics down to a tee, and how each of our key players plays to a tee. Salah - gonna cut in on his left. Trent, going to whip it in early. VVD, going to ping it cross field to Mo. etc.

We either need to do a better job of changing the personnel in these roles of our predictable (but effective when executed well) system, or change the system.

Last season we lost the PL by one point (and could maybe have won it if Everton had been given that penalty) and went to yet another CL final. Knowing what each player does/will do, and yet being able to stop world class players, are two completely different things - especially when those players are dotted all over the pitch.

I'm definitely coming down more on the side of physical and mental fatigue than tactical ineptitude (e.g. having been 'sussed out'). It doesn't take 5 yrs of video to know what we're going to do but regardless even last season very few could stop us.

 

[tomasjj]

If the energy levels ,and cohesion with it, is missing, we get carved up.
So make us more compact at least, so we can hold teams off.

 

[moron]

I am quite calm about yesterday as I was half expecting it anyway. The game last night was never gonna be a draw, and its was actually a favour that we got a good kicking.

I am calm about it because this time we can say for sure that any solution will be for sure an internal one, as the transfer market is not even an option for our club.

I think the way we played after the second goal is the way we must approach our defensive duties going forward. The line was not too high as the main basis, and Matip needs to start whenever fit.

I have come to the conclusion that, TAA is just following instructions right now in terms of his free movement, and less tracking back. Otherwise Klopp would have dealt with it by now.

Milner if he is gonna start then it is utter abuse of an aging player. Klopp is completely misusing him if he continnues to try and get him to do all the running around and counter press him, or use him as the right back. Its wrong and careless and ultimately damaging to Milners health. I get why he is starting him though, there is simply no options for that left side of midfield right now, like none unless you want to risk Thiago. Milner should in reality only be used as that 10 to 15 min sub, not fucking playing 60 to 80 mins per game.

Much shit has been said about Fab, but honestly with everyone not retaining that ball how can we expect one man to Marshall the midfield alone especially when everyone is playing so far apart.

I have no idea how we get Salah, Nunez, and Diaz playing together like a unified strike force, especially Salah, he looks completely clueless and the movement with the other players is not there anymore. Nunez, is making runs, but the team appear not to fucking notice him or play to his strengths.

The good thing is, that Klopp will now actually make adjustments - he knows this and even yesterday identified what was wrong along with every other fucker. This result will therefore be the turning point for us or the start of further decline. If we can win 3 to 5 games in a row then you can say any change we make is working, but failing that, then we are a team in transition.

Right now, I would take 4th place in PL with no other trophies if given the option.

 

[Donavan Ried]

Brilliant. After 5 yrs at long last someone has worked out how to stop Salah.

So... When was the last time you saw Mo Salah cutting in from the rigth and curling in a ball from the edge of the box into the left hand corner of the goal. In fact when was the last time you even seen him get a shot away like that??...

He has been rumbled, and defenders know that if they can stop him doing that it takes way a lot of his goal treat