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Has the Gerrard experiment failed?

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How much of it is Gerrard's interpretation of the role, and how much of it is Gerrard's normal response to things not going great - trying to do everyone's job himself.


It could well be but the only meaningful contribution he made was later on when he pushed further on. It's not working and he clearly hasn't got the legs to recover from the mistakes he makes. It's exposing our defence and the midfield is completely absent at present. There's really no route from defence to attack but we continue to play goal kicks out to the defence. How many times did Skrtel receive the ball on Saturday only for there to be a complete lack of players to pass to in front of him and it ended up putting us under continued pressure? We bemoan our attackers but there's such a lack of support from the midfield it's a real problem. It's glaringly obvious it needs changing but Rodgers can't seem to see it.
 
The only right way to use Gerrard now is as an impact player after the 60 min mark.

Trouble is BR doesn't have the balls to do it. He is failing as much as he succeed last season. Extraordinary doesn't cover it...
 
Much as I admittedly don't like Gerrard in that role, this weekly 'Is Gerrard a DM?' discussion on here is grossly unfair given what he's contributed to us, what he still adds to the team, and frankly that there are plenty of others in the side who contribute far fucking less and seem to somehow fly under the radar consistently.

I'm looking at you Skrtel & Henderson. Whilst the newer signings can have some level of leeway (not fucking much 20M pound Dejan Lovren), for me those two are deserving of a bit of heat.

Martin Skrtel has been with us for what, 6 years now? He's a fucking laughably bad defender. Defending is not charging into tackles, sliding around on your arse, and looking fearsome. Defending is what John Terry does. You don't see John Terry retreat to his 6 yard box when the opposition midfielder passes it sideways to his fullback 50 yards from goal. you do see Skrtel do that though. He goes deeper than Peter North that cunt.

And Henderson. What exactly does he contribute? And why in our dysfunctional midfield is the opprobrium for getting bypassed weekly all dropped off at Gerrard's door. As far as I can tell he's one of the 3 midfielders in there, none of whom are vastly contributing in attack or defence. Henderson's the vice captain, an England regular, and has been here for years now. He offers fucking zip apart from a lot of running. His contribution on Saturday, as it has been for a while, was fucking abysmal.

I appreciate Gerrard's been playing at a higher level than everyone for a dozen odd years now, but that doesn't mean his weekly contribution should be judged any differently than others. Especially guys like Henderson, Skrtel, Glenjo, etc who've been here for years also, and who are producing far fucking less than our captain.

It's about time we stopped accepting mediocrity from all and sundry, not just Gerrard.
 
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While I agree certain players like Johnson and Henderson has been shit lately, I think Skrtel has contributed a lot more than Gerrard has lately.



Obviously if you're talking long term, Gerrard wins hands down. But does past recognition alone merit 90 minutes every week?

I also agree that if there's any finger pointing to be done, there are players a lot more deserving of it than Gerrard. The problem with Gerrard is, he's carried us for so long, that now that he's older being average just isn't good enough.
 
I thought the quote below, from Keown on Arsenal's conceding at the weekend, could just as easily be about us. It raises a very interesting question and I have to think that maybe Lovren (and Skrtel) are not confident or forceful enough to be telling our captain where he should be and what he should be doing - hence the disjointedness between our defence & midfield :

Flamini had moved out of central midfield to challenge Sigurdsson and try to win the ball. Flamini did not need to do that - he just needs to occupy that central area of the pitch. If you do that, then the opposition do not even bother trying to run into that area. But, when they can see holes and gaps, they run into them.
Flamini should have passed that player on. Instead, he vacated his area and did not have the pace to recover.

It is not all his fault, though. To an extent, the centre-halves should have communicated that they wanted protection. Whoever I played with in the centre of defence for Arsenal, my partner and I would have the adage that, the more players do in front of us, the less we do. So our aim was always to get that barricade in position, and keep it there.
 
While I agree certain players like Johnson and Henderson has been shit lately, I think Skrtel has contributed a lot more than Gerrard has lately.



Obviously if you're talking long term, Gerrard wins hands down. But does past recognition alone merit 90 minutes every week?

I also agree that if there's any finger pointing to be done, there are players a lot more deserving of it than Gerrard. The problem with Gerrard is, he's carried us for so long, that now that he's older being average just isn't good enough.

Yeah, I think Skrtel has by and large been one of the better players, argue all day about his flaws that he's not ironing out, but I don't think he's been one of our bigger problems.

Henderson has indeed been shite though and Johnson has just reverted to old after a couple of promising games. We need fresh impetus, like I said in the other thread, we could do with putting Toure and Lucas in there for experience alone. Give Can or Allen the job next to Lucas and push Gerrard up (and bench him sometimes). Get Lallana in the side with Coutinho and stop taking the poor latter cunt off in every game, it's embarrassing watching our only bright spark get hooked predictably each week, while Balofuckingtelli gets to spend another 20 minutes stirring at the floor.
 
I thought Skrtel had one of his best games of the season on Saturday (which is not saying much). Hopefully this is a sign of his returning to good form.

What do you think about Lovren, @Ryan? I think he is playing himself off the starting 11 with these kinds of performances and if he doesn't turn it around maybe it won't be long before Toure simply wins this position from him on merit. Maybe Lovren can still be a great defender for us (again, I remember how poor Vidic looked in his first season at United), but there is no denying that right now he is not playing well at all. A top defender is not going to get turned and beaten 1 on 1 cleanly 5-6 times in one game. I wonder if Rodgers' patience is wearing thin.
 
It’s Not Me, It’s You: Gerrard, Touré, and the Complicated Case of the Aging Midfielder

GONZALO ARROYO MORENO/GETTY IMAGES
gerrard-face.jpg

FOOTBALL
NOVEMBER 11, 2014
by MIKE L. GOODMAN
PRINT
Football, as much as any other sport, is a young man’s game. Players peak around 24, and by 30 they’re nervously looking over their shoulders for a younger, better, ready-made replacement. Come 35, the few superstars still hanging on get the Turkish, Middle Eastern, or MLS retirement package. Hit 40, and you’re either named Ryan Giggs or retired.
With that in mind, it’s a bit odd that the two clubs that fought for last season’s English Premier League crown came into this season banking on the smooth operation of a pair of midfield fulcrums sitting on the wrong side of three decades. While Steven Gerrard and Yaya Touré managed just fine for Liverpool and Manchester City then, this year has been a struggle for their aging legs. Is it just a blip in form? Or is Father Time finally catching up with two of the best midfielders the league has ever seen?
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Steven Gerrard

Let’s start with Gerrard. As the 34-year-old’s effectiveness began to wane right around this time last season, he morphed, aided by Brendan Rodgers, from a do-everything-all-the-time force into Liverpool’s deep-lying playmaker. As evidenced by the team’s late-season run, the move worked. It seemed like every weekend, Gerrard would key a Liverpool attack by quickly pinging the ball forward to Daniel Sturridge running in behind a defense, or to Luis Suárez drifting into pockets of space. At least superficially, much of Liverpool’s attacking power came from Gerrard. He had 13 assists, which led the league, in addition to creating the second-most chances (nine) with passes from his own half. (All stats courtesy of ESPN Stats & Info.)
If you look a little deeper, though, exactly how valuable or repeatable Gerrard’s contributions were comes into question. Of his 13 assists, a full 11 came from set plays. Those nine chances created from his own half led to a meager total of 0.80 expected goals (and one actual goal) — not exactly the measure of a guy putting it on a plate for his teammates. Perhaps, then, the greatest achievement of Liverpool’s evolution last season was that it turned Gerrard into a cog in the system, instead of its focal point.
The same applies defensively. Playing at the base of a narrow diamond, Gerrard always had two other midfielders protecting him. It cut down on the space he had to cover and shielded him from being exposed by quicker, craftier attacking midfielders. With that system in place, the Liverpool captain held his own, managing 2.07 tackles and 1.40 interceptions per 90 minutes. This year, those numbers are down to 1.27 and 0.59, respectively. It’s tempting to look at those stats and conclude that Gerrard has hit the age wall — that he can no longer even do the more modest amount of running he was forced into last season.
But that’s only partially true. Defensive numbers are tricky and largely contextual. While Gerrard is playing for the same team, under the same coach, and in nominally the same position as last season, a lot has changed. First of all, Liverpool are rarely playing with two strikers, and rather than sitting at the base of a diamond, Gerrard is often one of three midfielders in either a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1. Liverpool also aren’t spending nearly as much time playing from ahead, compared with the previous campaign. Last year, they led the league in goals scored in the opening 30 minutes (37 of their 101 total goals), and scoring about 37 percent of their goals in the opening third well outpaced the league, which scored only 27 percent of its goals that early. This year, Liverpool are scoring less — but also rarely scoring early. Of the 14 goals they’ve scored so far, only four have come in the first 30 minutes. Although that a small sample size, it equates to a much more average 28.5 percent.
Goals change games. Liverpool spent tons of time last year eviscerating teams that were trying to catch up. The midfielders protecting Gerrard didn’t have to get forward to build chances because opponents were already more open. In turn, Gerrard was less isolated, less exposed, and had less real estate to manage. Now, as they struggle to score, their midfielders need to get up in support more aggressively and Gerrard then has more to do on his own defensively, which results in a worse performance. Is that him suddenly getting older? Not really, although it’s certainly possible that he’s slowed down from last year. But more important, it’s that the measures Rodgers put in place to limit Gerrard’s inadequacies don’t work nearly as well when the team isn’t playing from a winning position. That means that either new measures are required or Rodgers has to consider dropping Gerrard in favor of somebody more physically suited to play the position. So far, save for the one game at the Bernabéu, he’s steadfastly refused to do either.
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Yaya Touré

If the case of Gerrard’s decline is a subtle one, built on tactics and timing, then Touré’s is relatively simple. The 31-year-old has a reputation for being a box-to-box midfielder, but in reality he hasn’t truly occupied that role in several years. Even before Manuel Pellegrini’s arrival, Roberto Mancini often deployed the Ivorian in an attacking midfield spot with two holding players behind. As Gerrard’s lack of mobility has moved him backward, Touré has shifted in the other direction.
Last season it was easy to ignore Touré’s positioning because, for most of the year, Fernandinho was a superhero behind him. Touré also scored a ton of goals — and it’s easy to ignore lots of stuff when a player is scoring goals. About those goals, though: They maybe weren’t quite as impressive as you thought. First of all, in the absence of Sergio “What’s a Hamstring?” Agüero, Touré took City’s penalties, so that accounts for six of his 20 goals. While 14 goals from a midfielder sure ain’t nothing, another five of those came from set pieces … on a mind-blowing eight total shots. I don’t care if you are the test-tube baby of Pelé, Cristiano Ronaldo, and a mule leg — shooting five of eight from set pieces is totally unsustainable. They’re free kicks, not free throws.
That leaves us, then, with nine goals from open play. (We’ll include the two he scored from corner kicks here because having midfielders who score on corner kicks seems like a good thing.) Adjust that to “per 90 minutes played,” and it becomes a tally of 0.26. That’s exactly the same goal-scoring rate as guys like Gylfi Sigurdsson and Christian Eriksen, which is not to say that Yaya isn’t any better than those guys; of course he is. Rather, it’s to highlight that so much of what made Yaya so good last year was what happened when the ball wasn’t actually in play.
Still, all that goal scoring also overshadowed Touré’s assist numbers. He had nine from open play last year, which was third-best in the league. (Per 90, since he played so many minutes, he drops down to a more reasonable 13th with 0.26.) So while the eye-catching goal numbers might be a result of dead-ball situations, there was clearly a lot of meat behind Touré’s attacking performance last year. That he had the freedom to play so far forward was certainly a big part of the equation.
As with Gerrard, it’s not as if Touré, who currently has one goal and one assist in 10 games, has suddenly fallen off a cliff. Rather, it’s that a lot of the pieces that surrounded him, allowing him to excel, aren’t flowing like they used to. Fernandinho can’t quite shake off this summer’s World Cup disaster and has been struggling to get back to both fitness and form. Summer addition Fernando, while a perfectly capable player, certainly isn’t the one-man wrecking ball Fernandinho was at his peak last year. What seems like a dramatic change in Touré’s ability to move up and down the field is probably a more modest decline exacerbated by his midfield partner’s absence. Also, Touré is 0-for-6 on free kicks this year. It turns out you can’t just tuck the ball in the corner whenever you feel like it.
Neither Touré nor Gerrard, nor anybody else on the planet for that matter, is getting any younger. Short of discovering that time is, in fact, not linear but an actual physical dimension, both City and Liverpool have had to take steps to limit the damage caused by the aging of their star midfielders. It’s just that, right now, those measures aren’t working all that well.
Where the two players differ, though, is that Touré still clearly contributes from open play in addition to his set piece production, while Liverpool’s long-standing captain doesn’t appear to be doing so. For Gerrard, that might mean it’s finally time for him to either move on or be phased out as a key piece of Liverpool’s squad. It’s becoming less clear by the day what skills the club captain actually adds to the team with his presence. While the absurd dead-ball record may have exaggerated his goal count, Touré still has a tremendous amount to contribute on the field. Get the pieces around him clicking, and his strengths clearly outweigh his weaknesses — at least for another season or two.
 
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