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Exodus of English players from Man City?

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Fact of the matter is that crappy players make it into top teams all the time. On that basis, there's no reason to doubt that any of our youth players won't make it for lack of athleticism. Lack of technique is valid, but athleticism can be developed. At the top level, while athleticism is important, technique is of greater value. Look at mid table and lower, athleticism is the most valuable asset.

If you want players whose primary skill is technique though, there are tons popping up of late. Oscar, Coutinho, Mata, Cazorla, Ozil, etc etc. I'd say Suso/Texeira are in the same pace bracket.

I consider Luis Alberto as more of a CF/Second Striker type at the moment. He has a good eye for the pass, and a really good build. Watch the last bit of our first match against Spurs, he creates our last two goals. Smart pass to play Suarez in, and then does really well to win the ball and find Suarez in space again, who goes on to pick a pass to put Sterling through.

He's definitely an interesting one though, because he has a fantastic shot and good finishing ability, as we've seen, and also can play with the ball. I think there's a few ways to develop him from here.

  • A bit like we did with Lucas, mould him as a deep CDM/CM with a wicked shot. In our free flowing system, this could be a great option.
  • Move him a bit further up to play as a (sometimes lone) Striker. It remains to be seen if he has the positional awareness in the attacking third to compensate for his lack of pace.
  • Move him back to the hole to play as a CF/CAM. Probably the ideal position, but the issue is that we have Suso/Texeira/Coutinho also for that position. He's shown some ability on the ball to suit this position, but we need to see more to know if he can really handle this position.
It's unconventional, but I kinda like the first option. I can see him developing into a version of Sergio Busquets with a bit more attacking threat. It's hard to see exactly where he fits in at the moment, but it's feasible that he can contribute in two striker sets with Suarez or Sturridge.


I think it's far too glib to simply claim that athleticism can be developed. It makes no sense: if we accept that athleticism is important in football, and that it can be developed, then it follows that all footballers would be athletic, because they have every incentive to maximise their attributes. But there are clear differences between footballers in terms of athleticism, so it must be that training can improve a player's athleticism but not nearly enough to equalise for natural differences among players. And since football is a competitive sport, and what matters is relative abilities and not absolute abilities, then that state of affairs is therefore a problem for those less naturally athletic.

Clearly Suso's physcial deficiencies are not a total bar to success with us, but they are a disadvantage. His technical level is going to have to be that much better to compensate.

Luis Alberto: it's an interesting idea to try him deeper. Tbh I haven't (have any of us?) seen enough of him to really have a strong opinion on how he might develop. He looks like a creative passer, and as you say, a good eye for goal. You'd tend to think therefore that he should be kept fairly close to goal, but I suppose it's too early to say.
 
I think it's far too glib to simply claim that athleticism can be developed. It makes no sense: if we accept that athleticism is important in football, and that it can be developed, then it follows that all footballers would be athletic, because they have every incentive to maximise their attributes. But there are clear differences between footballers in terms of athleticism, so it must be that training can improve a player's athleticism but not nearly enough to equalise for natural differences among players. And since football is a competitive sport, and what matters is relative abilities and not absolute abilities, then that state of affairs is therefore a problem for those less naturally athletic.

Clearly Suso's physcial deficiencies are not a total bar to success with us, but they are a disadvantage. His technical level is going to have to be that much better to compensate.

Luis Alberto: it's an interesting idea to try him deeper. Tbh I haven't (have any of us?) seen enough of him to really have a strong opinion on how he might develop. He looks like a creative passer, and as you say, a good eye for goal. You'd tend to think therefore that he should be kept fairly close to goal, but I suppose it's too early to say.


Absolutely, I've made the comment before that natural athletes are more likely to be successful footballers than other individuals. By athleticism I meant more to the tune of having enough stamina to go 90 minutes, and a decent level of strength more than anything else.

I'm almost of the mentality though that having physically smaller, less physical players isn't the worst thing. They're more likely to draw fouls, and seem to do better against larger, less mobile defenders. Think going around with a few deft touches rather than powering through, and being more successful in tight areas.

Granted, you can't field a team of Coutinho's, but in the attacking areas, I think pace/agility is more important than strength in the modern game. And while Suso/Texeira are by no means burners like Sterling and Sturridge, then are agile enough, like Coutinho, to make a man miss and create some space.

Considering Suso is good enough to be one of the better first team players in La Liga, I think he's good enough to factor into our first team. He's been statistically good while playing for a bad team, which is a good sign.

As for Luis Alberto though, especially in our system, slower players play deeper. I think he could be a hybrid of Allen's passing ability and Hendo's lanky build, but with an ability to actually finish. We really should be getting more goals from those two given the chances they've had, and it's becoming a worrying trend. Watching LAR's clips, he has tremendous long shots, and I can see him scoring quite a few just by trailing our attacks. I can't see him playing out on the wing much at all, I think as a lone striker he would struggle, and we have tons of options to play CAM. So CM seems the most viable.
 
As for Luis Alberto though, especially in our system, slower players play deeper. I think he could be a hybrid of Allen's passing ability and Hendo's lanky build, but with an ability to actually finish. We really should be getting more goals from those two given the chances they've had, and it's becoming a worrying trend. Watching LAR's clips, he has tremendous long shots, and I can see him scoring quite a few just by trailing our attacks. I can't see him playing out on the wing much at all, I think as a lone striker he would struggle, and we have tons of options to play CAM. So CM seems the most viable.

I'm pretty sure in pre-season LAR played much deeper & I agree - I think Rodgers sees him in a deeper role where pace isn't an issue, but passing & an eye for goal are key.

Henderson & Allen's inabilities in front of goal are arguably our biggest flaw going forward - so getting "some" goals from central midfield will help.
 
I think folks tend to make Henderson's currently low goal return a bigger problem than it actually is. Yes, he's missed a few apparently easy open shots which could have put him close to or just in double digits by now, but it's not really as bad as it looks.

Just go look back at Gerrard's career - under Houllier, there were seasons when he was putting in just 3, 4 or 5 league goals a season - the goals only started jumping with Benitez's arrival and Gerrard pushed to the right, to the support striker role, etc. Look at Scholes - there were several seasons of 6, 8 or 9 goals starting at about Henderson's current age and he often played further forward (Henderson got 5 last season). Keane never scored more than 6 league goals in his Man Utd career, nor did Vieira for Arsenal.

Don't get me wrong, I too think he's got the ability to score more, and I believe he will in due course - he's making good follow-up runs and getting into the right positions but the finishing has almost always been a rocket over the bar, and that's something he can improve on with practice and confidence.

I don't see the lack of goals as that great a deal though - Henderson doesn't get that many chances a game so it's hardly fair to pull him up for it. He's currently scoring at a 1 in 10 clip (1 in 6 last season), which is what Suarez was doing in Kenny's full season. I guess that's why he's not a striker instead. 😉
 
I think folks tend to make Henderson's currently low goal return a bigger problem than it actually is. Yes, he's missed a few apparently easy open shots which could have put him close to or just in double digits by now, but it's not really as bad as it looks.

Just go look back at Gerrard's career - under Houllier, there were seasons when he was putting in just 3, 4 or 5 league goals a season - the goals only started jumping with Benitez's arrival and Gerrard pushed to the right, to the support striker role, etc. Look at Scholes - there were several seasons of 6, 8 or 9 goals starting at about Henderson's current age and he often played further forward (Henderson got 5 last season). Keane never scored more than 6 league goals in his Man Utd career, nor did Vieira for Arsenal.

Don't get me wrong, I too think he's got the ability to score more, and I believe he will in due course - he's making good follow-up runs and getting into the right positions but the finishing has almost always been a rocket over the bar, and that's something he can improve on with practice and confidence.

I don't see the lack of goals as that great a deal though - Henderson doesn't get that many chances a game so it's hardly fair to pull him up for it. He's currently scoring at a 1 in 10 clip (1 in 6 last season), which is what Suarez was doing in Kenny's full season. I guess that's why he's not a striker instead. 😉

Didn't matter for keane and vieira as manure and arsenal were getting goals from all over the pitch to compensate. We don't and rodgers wants goals coming from all over the pitch, not just suarez and studge. Like i said earlier outside of gerrard the rest of the midfield don't even make 10 league goals in the premiership, that's just poor. it's all good us pressing and closing down, but we also need more goals in midfield hence why i can see rodgers getting a couple of goalscoring midfielders in the summer.
 
Of course athleticism can be developed, but it would be hard for it to be done so for someone playing regularly as you would have conflicting goals and a limited amount of time to build the required strength/power.

If you had a slow ass technique player, if you took them out the squad for half the season and put them through a training regime to get them stronger/faster you could absolutely transform their athleticism. You would have to monitor the trade off between building that strength/power and their agility/touch etc as they might lose some nimbleness in exchange for muscles.


#BroScience
 
Of course athleticism can be developed, but it would be hard for it to be done so for someone playing regularly as you would have conflicting goals and a limited amount of time to build the required strength/power.

If you had a slow ass technique player, if you took them out the squad for half the season and put them through a training regime to get them stronger/faster you could absolutely transform their athleticism. You would have to monitor the trade off between building that strength/power and their agility/touch etc as they might lose some nimbleness in exchange for muscles.


#BroScience

They did it quite successfully with Sterling.
 
If you're talking about the midfield as a whole, I agree with your point about Rodgers looking for someone who can contribute goals. However, specifically on Henderson, I think the line of argument is flawed.

The fact that the midfield doesn't score enough should put the onus on the rest of the group there to step up and contribute, rather than put the spotlight on Henderson and highlight that the lack of scoring from him is his flaw. Look, I'm not arguing against the fact that he should've have scored more given his ability and the types of chances he's missed, but I just think using the logic of "we aren't getting more elsewhere, so we need more from him" doesn't make sense.

Like I said, I think he's chipped in his fair share of goals going by comparisons with others in his position. Okay, maybe he's a couple short. The likes of Lucas and Allen have contributed a total of 0 goals between them and should be the ones to stand up and be counted first if the midfield is to be taken to task for the lack of scoring. Let's also not forget that we've got 1 goal from our fullbacks all season.
 
If you're talking about the midfield as a whole, I agree with your point about Rodgers looking for someone who can contribute goals. However, specifically on Henderson, I think the line of argument is flawed.

The fact that the midfield doesn't score enough should put the onus on the rest of the group there to step up and contribute, rather than put the spotlight on Henderson and highlight that the lack of scoring from him is his flaw. Look, I'm not arguing against the fact that he should've have scored more given his ability and the types of chances he's missed, but I just think using the logic of "we aren't getting more elsewhere, so we need more from him" doesn't make sense.

Like I said, I think he's chipped in his fair share of goals going by comparisons with others in his position. Okay, maybe he's a couple short. The likes of Lucas and Allen have contributed a total of 0 goals between them and should be the ones to stand up and be counted first if the midfield is to be taken to task for the lack of scoring. Let's also not forget that we've got 1 goal from our fullbacks all season.

No i'm not talking about hendo specifically as i think he's scored more from open play than any of our midfielders, including gerrard. I'm talking about as a whole we need more goalscorers in our midfield. I've no issue in selling allen if it meant additional funds for a goalscoring midfielder.
 
If you're talking about the midfield as a whole, I agree with your point about Rodgers looking for someone who can contribute goals. However, specifically on Henderson, I think the line of argument is flawed.

The fact that the midfield doesn't score enough should put the onus on the rest of the group there to step up and contribute, rather than put the spotlight on Henderson and highlight that the lack of scoring from him is his flaw. Look, I'm not arguing against the fact that he should've have scored more given his ability and the types of chances he's missed, but I just think using the logic of "we aren't getting more elsewhere, so we need more from him" doesn't make sense.

Like I said, I think he's chipped in his fair share of goals going by comparisons with others in his position. Okay, maybe he's a couple short. The likes of Lucas and Allen have contributed a total of 0 goals between them and should be the ones to stand up and be counted first if the midfield is to be taken to task for the lack of scoring. Let's also not forget that we've got 1 goal from our fullbacks all season.
You're saying he could do better with the chances he's missed when given golden opportunities from our attackers.
But then you're saying Henderson shouldn't be criticized for that.
If he can do better in that respect, why should he be exempt from any criticism?
 
I'm not saying he is exempt from criticism - I'm saying the initial criticisms was over the top. This is the initial statement I disagreed with:

"Henderson & Allen's inabilities in front of goal are arguably our biggest flaw going forward - so getting "some" goals from central midfield will help."

It makes him out like some useless guy when it comes to contributing goals. A return of 4 goals sounds meagre, but as I've mentioned, it's about close to par with what more illustrious midfielders have done. So on that scale, he hasn't done too bad.
 
Just for the sake of interest, let's see what CMs have scored for the Premier League winners since 2001-2002. Numbers from Soccernet; I might have missed some in my cut and paste and data massage but it shouldn't be too far off.

2001/02: Arsenal - Vieira (2), Edu (1), Van Bronckhorst (1)
2002/03: Man Utd - Veron (2), Scholes (14); not sure if I should classify him as a forward in this season but I'll just leave this here
2003/04: Arsenal - Vieira (3), Silva (4)
2004/05: Chelsea - Lampard (13), Tiago (4), Makelele (1)
2005/06: Chelsea - Lampard (16), Geremi (2), Essien (2)
2006/07: Man Utd - Scholes (6), Fletcher (3), Carrick (3)
2007/08: Man Utd: Carrick (2), Hargreaves (2), Scholes (1)
2008/09: Man Utd: Carrick (4), Fletcher (3), Scholes (2), Gibson (1)
2009/10: Chelsea - Lampard (22), Ballack (4), Essien (3)
2010/11: Man Utd - Fletcher (2), Anderson (1), Scholes (1)
2011/12: Man City - Toure (6), Barry (1)
2012/13: Man Utd - Cleverley (2), Anderson (1), Fletcher (1), Carrick (1), Scholes (1)

Obviously, Lampard is a monster.
 
While I do think we need to add more attacking threat to our midfield, I agree that prolific midfielders are much rarer than commonly supposed. Silva, for example, has 4 or 5 goals this season. Willian has 3, I think. Ramires, Wilshere, Ozil, Navas, Oscar - none of them prolific.

Even someone like Beckham tended to get between 6-9 a year for Utd.

Players like Lampard and Toure are rare gems.
 
Players like Lampard and Toure are rare gems.

Both very interesting cases.

Lampard was scoring between 5 to 7 goals a season until he was 25 (2003-2004), when he first hit double digits (10). He hasn't looked back since, though he might just finish this season back in single digits for the first time after 10 seasons. That's bloody unbelievable.

Toure is just going batshit crazy this season. 6 goals a season for the past 3 seasons and never more than 5 in his career before that, and then, suddenly, he's hammering in 17 this season. It's crazy! However, I think that this is more likely an outlier event than a sustained jump and we'll probably see him regress to the normal numbers again next season.
 
While I do think we need to add more attacking threat to our midfield, I agree that prolific midfielders are much rarer than commonly supposed. Silva, for example, has 4 or 5 goals this season. Willian has 3, I think. Ramires, Wilshere, Ozil, Navas, Oscar - none of them prolific.

Even someone like Beckham tended to get between 6-9 a year for Utd.

Players like Lampard and Toure are rare gems.

you're forgetting players like ramsay, hazard and lallana all have 8+ premier league goals from midfield this season. Actually Oscar has 8 goals in the league this season from midfield.
 
you're forgetting players like ramsay, hazard and lallana all have 8+ premier league goals from midfield this season. Actually Oscar has 8 goals in the league this season from midfield.

No I'm not, I just didn't mention them, because they didn't support my point.

Personally I think we need a goalscoring midfielder, probably to play alongside Henderson but also to compete with him. We really lack that now, especially when playing the diamond, because one of those two on the edge of the diamond needs to contribute goals.
 
No I'm not, I just didn't mention them, because they didn't support my point.

Personally I think we need a goalscoring midfielder, probably to play alongside Henderson but also to compete with him. We really lack that now, especially when playing the diamond, because one of those two on the edge of the diamond needs to contribute goals.
players like sterling, hendo and coutinho really should be aiming for double figures. Allen should be getting at least 5. But I totally agree we need to buy at least one goalcoring midfielder, but I'd prefer 2.
 
players like sterling, hendo and coutinho really should be aiming for double figures. Allen should be getting at least 5. But I totally agree we need to buy at least one goalcoring midfielder, but I'd prefer 2.


I think if you look at great teams from the past, it's simply not realistic to expect more than 4 prolific goalscorers in one team. I suppose on average I'd want a return of something like 20 each from 2 strikers, and 10 each from 2 attacking mids. That'd be 60 across the main attackers. Which is what we've got now, and I can only see that being the same next year as Sterling and Coutinho should hit a couple more each.

So, ideally, I'd like a goal scoring midfielder, but the stats say it's not really that urgent.
 
Sterling and Coutinho I agree - for their positions, they ought to be able to score a few more. Henderson and Allen I'd be happy with 5 or 6 a season. Obviously, Allen hasn't contributed any this season. Lucas could do with whatever contribution he could produce too - even a couple a season would help.

As far as our goal contribution percentages is concerned though, we're actually not too off-whack. Of course, there are still 5 games to play and things could still change, but here's a look at the % goal contributions of the top 2 and top 3 scorers of the last dozen seasons' winners (own goals by opponents not included obviously):

Season Winner - GF - Top 2 - Top 3
2001-2002 Arsenal - 79 - 45.57% - 58.23% <-- Henry (24), Ljungberg (12), WIltord (10)
2002-2003 Man Utd - 72 - 54.17% - 66.67% <-- Van Niistelroy (25), Scholes (14), Solskjaer (9)
2003-2004 Arsenal - 69 - 63.77% - 69.57% <-- Henry (30), Pires (14), Bergkamp (4)
2004-2005 Chelsea - 71 - 35.21% - 49.30% <-- Lampard (13), Gudjohnsen (12), Drogba (10)
2005-2006 Chelsea - 72 - 38.89% - 52.78% <-- Lampard (16), Drogba (12), Crespo (10)
2006-2007 Man Utd - 80 - 38.75% - 48.75% <-- Ronaldo (17), Rooney (14), Saha (8)
2007-2008 Man Utd - 78 - 57.69% - 73.08% <-- Ronaldo (31), Tevez (14), Rooney (12)
2008-2009 Man Utd - 68 - 44.12% - 57.35% <-- Ronaldo (18), Rooney (12), Berbatov (9)
2009-2010 Chelsea - 99 - 51.52% - 63.64% <-- Drogba (29), Lampard (22), Malouda (12)
2010-2011 Man Utd - 75 - 44.00% - 58.67% <-- Berbatov (20), Hernandez (13), Rooney (11)
2011-2012 Man City - 91 - 40.66% - 54.95% <-- Aguero (23), Dzeko (14), Balotelli (13)
2012-2013 Man Utd - 80 - 47.50% - 60.00% <-- Van Persie (26), Rooney (12), Hernandez (10)
2013-2014 Liverpool - 86 - 56.98% - 72.09% <-- Suarez (29), Sturridge (20), Gerrard (13)
 
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