downing or young?

[Akakabooto]

[quote author=dmishra link=topic=46454.msg1389596#msg1389596 date=1314552475]
I said it all pre season. I have no doubts that it'll be proven conclusively by the end of the season.

It's a sad thing because I want Downing to do well obviously, and while he's providing good width, balance, and an intelligent footballing brain, he's at best a functional/support attacking player. We paid 10 million too many for him.

Young on the other hand is a clear match-winner. He has pace, skill, and a great shot. There were a lot of pointless stats thrown about in the Young v. Downing debates (like crossing accuracy and number of chances created and the like dodgy shit), the only conclusively documented stats (goals and assists) were HEAVILY in Young's favour (Young's production in the last 4 seasons has been as good as Downing's in his entire 10 year career).

What he has lacked thus far in his career is some sort of consistency, but he'll get that playing with better players at United unfortunately.
[/quote]

So if we paid £20m(part of it performance based?) for him who in the current market we could have got who costs only £10m and is as good as Downing is? I too think we overpaid a bit but it was not as bad as you are implying imo.

I don't think the stats you mention are pointless either, what's so dodgy about chances created and cossing accuracy? I don't really care what the goals and assists stats are from the last 4 seasons either, last season they were: Yound - 7g 10a, Downing - 7g 7a. Hardly a dramatic difference despite Young being often played in a more attacking role.

I wanted Young myself(would have been great if we got both) but in the end I think Downing might be a better fit for us. Actually I'm sure of it as Young's dream move was to Manchester United while Downing was desperate to join Liverpool.

 

[themn]

[quote author=Buddha link=topic=46454.msg1389728#msg1389728 date=1314562658]
[quote author=Dylan link=topic=46454.msg1389627#msg1389627 date=1314554383]
[quote author=Buddha link=topic=46454.msg1389617#msg1389617 date=1314553905]
If I'd wanted to go onto Redcafe I would have. For fucks sake.
[/quote]

I'm with you brother...i mean buddha.
[/quote]

How about bruddah?
[/quote]

Nice.

NOW WHERE'S NEYMA, YA FECKER !?

 

[dmishra]

[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=46454.msg1389747#msg1389747 date=1314565440]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=46454.msg1389596#msg1389596 date=1314552475]
I said it all pre season. I have no doubts that it'll be proven conclusively by the end of the season.

It's a sad thing because I want Downing to do well obviously, and while he's providing good width, balance, and an intelligent footballing brain, he's at best a functional/support attacking player. We paid 10 million too many for him.

Young on the other hand is a clear match-winner. He has pace, skill, and a great shot. There were a lot of pointless stats thrown about in the Young v. Downing debates (like crossing accuracy and number of chances created and the like dodgy shit), the only conclusively documented stats (goals and assists) were HEAVILY in Young's favour (Young's production in the last 4 seasons has been as good as Downing's in his entire 10 year career).

What he has lacked thus far in his career is some sort of consistency, but he'll get that playing with better players at United unfortunately.
[/quote]

So if we paid £20m(part of it performance based?) for him who in the current market we could have got who costs only £10m and is as good as Downing is? I too think we overpaid a bit but it was not as bad as you are implying imo.

I don't think the stats you mention are pointless either, what's so dodgy about chances created and cossing accuracy? I don't really care what the goals and assists stats are from the last 4 seasons either, last season they were: Yound - 7g 10a, Downing - 7g 7a. Hardly a dramatic difference despite Young being often played in a more attacking role.
I wanted Young myself(would have been great if we got both) but in the end I think Downing might be a better fit for us. Actually I'm sure of it as Young's dream move was to Manchester United while Downing was desperate to join Liverpool.
[/quote]

Because football's not a stat oriented sport. There never has been and I doubt there ever will be, a consistent/objective criteria for determining stuff like crossing accuracy, passing accuracy, chances created etc. The only objectively determinable (and well documented) stats are goals and assists (which I am also willing to accept don't always tell the entire story - though in comparing attacking players, I'm of the opinion that they're quite significant).

And it's really not last season's stats. Over the last 5 seasons, this is how they stack up:

Young - 40 goals, 61 assists
Downing - 27 goals, 36 assists

That's a SIGNIFICANT difference. It's difficult for me to accept an argument that that doesn't have a bearing in their comparison. I take the points about Downing's possibly superior game intelligence or crossing accuracy, but it's not like Young is a mug.

This debate is now annoying for me as we've signed who we've signed, and really the only reason this debate originated was because we were clearly interested in Young at one point. The question however really is whether our interest in him cooled because we thought Downing was a better player, or because we approached him and he turned us down for United and we approached Downing as our second choice.

If it's the first, I'm disappointed because I'm convinced we made the wrong decision. If it's the latter however, I'm happy to put this to bed and call Young a cunt.

 

[dmishra]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=46454.msg1389642#msg1389642 date=1314555432]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=46454.msg1389635#msg1389635 date=1314554943]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=46454.msg1389626#msg1389626 date=1314554342]
It's hard to choose between them, yet when they both played for the same team, the Villa fans picked Downing for their player of the year.
[/quote]

It's sort of a vacuous argument. I remember Murphy, Mascherano and Lucas being voted our players of the year. Does it make them better players than Gerrard?

Being voted player of the year is often acknowledgment of a player's improvement/form/attitude. Doesn't always mean he's the best player at the club, or preclude anyone arguing that someone else from the same team is better than him.

I'm happy to debate on merits with anyone that Young is a better player. I said it before we signed Downing and it doesn't make me very happy saying it today but being a fan is one thing, and arguing on merits is another.
[/quote]

Or maybe he got more goals and assists and has consistently done so during his career?
[/quote]

Ugh. I'm happy to take the Oncy, themn and Fabio lines and call Young a cunt because he's a Manc. But don't come here trying to argue on merits and make a fool of yourself.

Over for me in this thread.

 

[Akakabooto]

[quote author=dmishra link=topic=46454.msg1389855#msg1389855 date=1314595893]

[/quote]

I can't bother really arguing about this anymore. I think all this is just way too harsh on Downing who has started really well. It's like first we were linked with him people were 'NOOOO not downing he's shit worth only £5m!!!!' and when he starts well it's 'well he's kinda ok but Young is still way better!'.

Harsh.

 

[mark1975]

I don't get the point anyway, are people saying we could have got Young instead? It's a moot point. There's a long way to go this season, he's playing in a team that's flying right now and has played against a few struggling sides (though it's still fair to say yesterdays result was excellent), give him a dip in form and Downing a couple of goals that he's already unlucky not to have and it paints a different picture. I'm suspecting half the argument is that Young has the qualities we lack outwide, ie Pace and directness. That shouldn't overshadow Downing's qualities, the main issue is that we don't have someone of similar quality on the other flank.

 

[Mistadobalina]

Very happy with our man.

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=dmishra link=topic=46454.msg1389857#msg1389857 date=1314596028]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=46454.msg1389642#msg1389642 date=1314555432]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=46454.msg1389635#msg1389635 date=1314554943]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=46454.msg1389626#msg1389626 date=1314554342]
It's hard to choose between them, yet when they both played for the same team, the Villa fans picked Downing for their player of the year.
[/quote]

It's sort of a vacuous argument. I remember Murphy, Mascherano and Lucas being voted our players of the year. Does it make them better players than Gerrard?

Being voted player of the year is often acknowledgment of a player's improvement/form/attitude. Doesn't always mean he's the best player at the club, or preclude anyone arguing that someone else from the same team is better than him.

I'm happy to debate on merits with anyone that Young is a better player. I said it before we signed Downing and it doesn't make me very happy saying it today but being a fan is one thing, and arguing on merits is another.
[/quote]

Or maybe he got more goals and assists and has consistently done so during his career?
[/quote]

Ugh. I'm happy to take the Oncy, themn and Fabio lines and call Young a cunt because he's a Manc. But don't come here trying to argue on merits and make a fool of yourself.

Over for me in this thread.
[/quote]

Why is Downing on the all time list of chance creators in the history of the Premier League and Young isn't, Mr 'Over for Me'?

 

[The Slugmonster]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=46454.msg1390031#msg1390031 date=1314620361]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=46454.msg1389857#msg1389857 date=1314596028]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=46454.msg1389642#msg1389642 date=1314555432]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=46454.msg1389635#msg1389635 date=1314554943]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=46454.msg1389626#msg1389626 date=1314554342]
It's hard to choose between them, yet when they both played for the same team, the Villa fans picked Downing for their player of the year.
[/quote]

It's sort of a vacuous argument. I remember Murphy, Mascherano and Lucas being voted our players of the year. Does it make them better players than Gerrard?

Being voted player of the year is often acknowledgment of a player's improvement/form/attitude. Doesn't always mean he's the best player at the club, or preclude anyone arguing that someone else from the same team is better than him.

I'm happy to debate on merits with anyone that Young is a better player. I said it before we signed Downing and it doesn't make me very happy saying it today but being a fan is one thing, and arguing on merits is another.
[/quote]

Or maybe he got more goals and assists and has consistently done so during his career?
[/quote]

Ugh. I'm happy to take the Oncy, themn and Fabio lines and call Young a cunt because he's a Manc. But don't come here trying to argue on merits and make a fool of yourself.

Over for me in this thread.
[/quote]

Why is Downing on the all time list of chance creators in the history of the Premier League and Young isn't, Mr 'Over for Me'?
[/quote]

😉