'don't even bother to look at the league table until we're 10 games in'

[Sunny]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=47375.msg1420683#msg1420683 date=1320231170]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47375.msg1420680#msg1420680 date=1320231002]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47375.msg1420657#msg1420657 date=1320229170]
Modric - 16m
Bale - 10m
VDV - 8m
Adebayor - free

Those 4 players were signed for the same amount that we paid for Andy Carroll.
[/quote]

Does the wage bill add up to the same though? An often overlooked factor and something we had massive issues with. Paying too high wages for utter shite potentially preventing us from securing other players.
[/quote]

Spurs pay less in wages overall then we do.
[/quote]

I'm not denying that Keni. I'm saying we paid too much wages to to many poor players and also, although a combined transfer fee may be the same as a single player but a combined wage fee is likely considerably more than the single players. That's not to take away from the point that yes we need to acquire top end players at better rates and pay them what they are actually worth. Catching them early is the trick though - I agree with Ross on that.

 

[dmishra]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=47375.msg1420632#msg1420632 date=1320226758]
I'm inclined to agree with Ryan - apart from the pace thing.
[/quote]

I'm inclined to agree with him partially.

Pace, and a few other things that I don't agree with. In particular, I think it's critical that we have a world-class spine (essentially the keeper, the two CBs and the two CMs) that starts and plays 90% of our games, and that we inject some more pace up front (this isn't as critical as getting players with quality, but I'd rather have a Suarez and a Torres up front rather than two Suarez's if you know what I mean).

But yeah, it's a given when he says that we need more world-class players in attack, and that we spent poorly in the summer.

What I am pleased about however is (a) the fact that we got rid of nearly ALL the deadwood in the summer (something we've struggled with for years - something that's crippling for the wage bill); and (b) that we're targeting players like Coates i.e. top quality youngsters who can be phased into first team football immediately. Now I'm not saying that Coates is a dead guarantee to be a success, but I think that's the kind of transfer policy that's going to hold us in good stead.

Having said that, as things stand, Ryan's right when he says we shouldn't expect to be higher than 4th/5th. I think 4th is a possibility, but that requires us riding our luck, an injury free season for Suarez and Gerrard, and top quality management from Kenny (who I obviously like tremendously, but still have doubts about).

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=47375.msg1420692#msg1420692 date=1320231750]
I don't know. Did it make that much of a difference?

We bought in quite a few new players and we're still paying a big chunk of Aquilani's and Joe Cole's wages.
[/quote]

Which are two prime examples of paying too high wages for players that are clearly not worth it. I believe the new contract structures being offered now are different and a there's more focus on reward being performance based - which can only be a good thing.

 

[mark1975]

People keep saying we spent poorly in the Summer, Coates is un unknown quantity, Enrique & Adam add depth and quality for their respective fees (money well spent & well negotiated). The real question marks are over Downing's fee and overall impact and the nescessity of Henderson. 'A poor Summer' is premature, unless we're selectively including Carroll.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47375.msg1420707#msg1420707 date=1320234012]
unless we're selectively including Carroll.
[/quote]

and some are...

 

[mark1975]

No surprise there.

 

[LarryHagman]

Why shouldn't Carroll be included in the discussion? The current Manager bought him, in this calendar year. He also bought Suarez who has been a good signing. What's the deal? Are you supposed to stop discussing whether someone was a decent signing once another window passes?

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=47375.msg1420718#msg1420718 date=1320235022]
Why shouldn't Carroll be included in the discussion? The current Manager bought him, in this calendar year. He also bought Suarez who has been a good signing. What's the deal? Are you supposed to stop discussing whether someone was a decent signing once another window passes?
[/quote]

Someone said we spent poorly in the summer, I quoted it in the opening line of my post and debated the point, its not that difficult to understand.

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47375.msg1420719#msg1420719 date=1320235191]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=47375.msg1420718#msg1420718 date=1320235022]
Why shouldn't Carroll be included in the discussion? The current Manager bought him, in this calendar year. He also bought Suarez who has been a good signing. What's the deal? Are you supposed to stop discussing whether someone was a decent signing once another window passes?
[/quote]

Someone said we spent poorly in the summer, I quoted it in the opening line of my post and debated the point, its not that difficult to understand.
[/quote]

OK then, we've spent poorly in 2011. That ok?

 

[mark1975]

Fine, thats not the point I took up though, should I draw a picture?

 

[LarryHagman]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47375.msg1420725#msg1420725 date=1320235463]
Fine, thats not the point I took up though, should I draw a picture?
[/quote]

No thanks.

 

[Rosco]

The only real mistake we made last summer was Downing. Every other deal is easily justifiable

 

[doctor_mac]

There's still plenty of time for Downing to come good. I do think if we stick him on the right we'll play to his strengths more.

 

[Rosco]

I don't think it matters if he comes good or.not,he'll never justify the fee and by the time we're ready to challenge he'll need replacing.

I think he was a completely pointless signing unless he was going to.transform us in the way Suarez did.

 

[Asbo]

He's only played 10 games for us 11 if you count the cup game.

I know we was expecting him to slot right in and be an instant hit, but new team new tactics and all that but we obviously bought him to create goals not score them, he's never ever been a goalscorer.

Downing Carrol Goal will be what we want to hear.

Played 261 Games Scored 29 goals.

He has also hit the woodwork 2-3 times for us already this season, I think he has the potential to reach his playing best stats with us......

 

[dmishra]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47375.msg1420719#msg1420719 date=1320235191]
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=47375.msg1420718#msg1420718 date=1320235022]
Why shouldn't Carroll be included in the discussion? The current Manager bought him, in this calendar year. He also bought Suarez who has been a good signing. What's the deal? Are you supposed to stop discussing whether someone was a decent signing once another window passes?
[/quote]

Someone said we spent poorly in the summer, I quoted it in the opening line of my post and debated the point, its not that difficult to understand.
[/quote]

You were probably responding to me, and yeah well, 2011 is probably more accurate.

However, even if you talk about the summer alone, we spent 36 million on Downing and Henderson, and I think we wasted about 20 million there. Wasting 20 million makes a transfer window a 'poor' one in my book.

 

[Mistadobalina]

We are doing ok. I think we will get 4th. That's good progress. Pity we didn't have another quality match winner or 2, we might of had a crack at the title then. But once we are back in the european cup, we can push on again. We spend a lot of money but it's a decent squad and we shipped out some real shite... like el zhar, poulsen, degen, etc.

 

[doctor_mac]

Whenever I worry that we wasted money in the transfer windows I offset it by thinking we stole Suarez for 20m and dumped a dumpling for 50. Of course Torres wasn't a dumpling really, but he was giving 10% effort.

Suarez has been so magical that we've still done well in the transfer windows. Other players may take some time to join the party, but Enrique/ Adam/ Henderson/ Bellamy/ Downing and Carroll have deffo improved our depth and quality.

Let's rewind and think, Konchesky, that Ukrainian plum I can't even remember his name, Poulson, and a totally blown Joe Cole. Our only replacement striker was N'Gog! We're coming along rightly.


*edit- Mista beat me to it*

 

[Mistadobalina]

It's true though doc. We are well better off now.

 

[Squiggles]

We're infinitely better off than we were 12 months ago and we should be hugely grateful for that. But I do think the collective wisdom of Comolli, Kenny and the Owners should have ensured we spent our money better to date.

Enrique, Bellamy, Suarez are all excellent acquisitions. The rest are extremely risky given the sums we've paid.

Despite remaining hopeful that Carroll, Henderson will come good, it's hard not to think how else we could have spent £70M better. FWIW, I agree with Rosco about Downing.

 

[localny]

I think definitely we wish the money was spent better, but for the life of me, I can't see how.

Unless we are unearthing some gems with a scouting network in Europe, which we don't have.

I look at Mata at times, and I think, wow, I wish.

But realistically, how much quality are you going to get/sign if you are not in the CL? And with Man City/Chelsea inflating the prices of every player, well, you are always going to pay more than a player is worth.

Having said that, we need more talent, so Suarez is not our only flair player.

Am I happy? Yes. We are there or thereabouts. I am happy, because I see this current position as a platform for future success. I am assuming the team will continue to improve as they get to know each other. And Kenny's management will see us definitely have a better run in. Given we are just two silly results off second, we have to be fairly chuffed.

It's a case of progress, not perfection

 

[moron]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47375.msg1420564#msg1420564 date=1320190067]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47375.msg1420549#msg1420549 date=1320185766]
Realistically, who would you bring in? Sincere question.
[/quote]
.......

The best football team on the planet; Spain. Where's their pace? You see Iniesta tearing it up down the left wing? Nope, not required. They're footballers, and great ones at that. We need more intelligent footballers. Players that can interchange, retain possession, find space where others can't, pick a hole, drag opposition out of shape, find a goal from nothing, play the killer ball, all of that fucking great stuff that predictable footballers find difficult. Cos David Silva doesn't have pace, a rasping shot, he can't get down a wing, he's probably a shite crosser too, but none of that matters because he's another level above 99% of the dross that plays in the premier league, and that's the type of player I want. More of him, more of Rooney, more of Modric. They don't need to be defined by a position, we don't need a designated right winger, we just need the highest quality of footballer, then you let them play in a system that suits, alongside players that are on their wavelength.

I realise I'm not giving you names, that's not my point. 12 months ago I wouldn't have given you the name Luis suarez cos i knew fuck all about him. Ditto 24 months ago I probably wouldn't have thrown up the name Modric. But players like that exist, and until we change what seems to be a flawed transfer policy, we'll struggle to beat the 15 other teams because we don't have enough world class players.

Disclaimer - there are probably spelling and grammar mistakes all through this post. My apologies for that, I'm typing in one almighty rush.
[/quote]

Ryan - first of all your a cont for not cheking yor speling and gramer - makes it dificult to reed.

Anyway - regarding your points about the Spanish players - totally agree with you, that if you have a team with players who have the fotballing ability plus high level of intelligence and not necesarily the top range of skills in the class of Messi et al, it is still possible to produce a great team. I understood this after we signed Xabi Alonso - now I did not think he was fast (he wasn't), and have great skills but he was f*cking clever at controlling games and he demonstrated that in his first season against the likes of Man United and Chelsea - we lost those two games away under Rafa in that first season BUT for over half the game that guy was pulling all the strings in a team full of mostly utter shite players. Thats just one player controlling a game against teams that were full of skill full players. Take David Bekham - not your most pacey, skill full player but he is the best crosser of a ball I have seen, and had a footballing brain to get into positions to supply those pin-point crosses on a regular basis. Suarez is great because he knows what to do and create the space for himself and his tricks are simple ones but he uses them to good effect on a regular basis because he is clever at getting around and trying out the opposition. In everygame he plays - you can see he is battling with the opposition to pin-point their weak areas. That said - I think we may need to give the players we have bought more time as from what most people are posting lately it seems that the likes of Henderson and Adam are improving. Thing is - I along with a few others are kinda frustrated that we don't seem to be able to shake off the likes of Spurs and Newcastle just yet - margins are too thin at the moment.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47375.msg1420564#msg1420564 date=1320190067]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47375.msg1420549#msg1420549 date=1320185766]
Realistically, who would you bring in? Sincere question.
[/quote]

I know this is a pretty shite response, but 'better players'.

Look at Downing, Carroll, Adam, Henderson, etc - you know what you're getting. Significantly, our opposition know what they're playing against too, because they're predictable and easier to nullify.

Winning the premier league isn't really about beating your opposition in the top 4, it's about betaing the other 15 bags of shit week in, week out - which Man United have done relentlessly for the last 20 years. To beat them you need players that they don't have, simple enough you might say, but they all have players of the calibre of Stewart Downing - players with some skills, a bit of directivity, and capable of the odd moment of magic. so playing against them isn't that difficult. Playing against Sergio Aguero, David Silva, RVP, Steven Gerrard, Luis Suarez, etc etc is difficult for that group of 15, because they're unpredictable, they're brilliant and they make life fucking hard for them. They're world class. Charlie Adam, Jordan Henderson, Andy Carroll and Stewart Downing aren't.

A solid defence and good defensive midfielder are critical, no doubt. Quality in attack though is what we're missing. We have one and a half world class players in attack (Gerrard's not fit, ergo he's the half). So stopping us scoring is easier for most teams, than it is against say Man City, spurs, or United cos you only have to stop one player for the most part.

Look at Spurs front 6 on Sunday - Parker, Modric, Bale, Lennon, VDV, Adeabyor. Take Lennon out of that and Parker as he's the DM, and they're all absolute quality. all arguably world class players that can win a game on their own.

Man City - Dzeko, Aguero, Silva, Nasri, etc. Same again. You can stop one of them, two maybe, on a good day three of them, but then Adam Johnson comes off the bench and curls one in from 30 yards. And you're fucked.

United - Rooney, Hernandez, Nani, Young. Ditto.

so, there - we don't have enough world class players in attack. We have 1 and the other one's injured.

The other thing we don't have is clever enough players. I'm glad this fucking argument that I campaigned against for the last 3 years that 'pace is critical' has recently died away, because it's fucking bollocks. What pace does Silva have? Adam Johnson? Ashley Young? Modric? VDV? They don't need pace, cos they're fucking brilliant.

The best football team on the planet; Spain. Where's their pace? You see Iniesta tearing it up down the left wing? Nope, not required. They're footballers, and great ones at that. We need more intelligent footballers. Players that can interchange, retain possession, find space where others can't, pick a hole, drag opposition out of shape, find a goal from nothing, play the killer ball, all of that fucking great stuff that predictable footballers find difficult. Cos David Silva doesn't have pace, a rasping shot, he can't get down a wing, he's probably a shite crosser too, but none of that matters because he's another level above 99% of the dross that plays in the premier league, and that's the type of player I want. More of him, more of Rooney, more of Modric. They don't need to be defined by a position, we don't need a designated right winger, we just need the highest quality of footballer, then you let them play in a system that suits, alongside players that are on their wavelength.

I realise I'm not giving you names, that's not my point. 12 months ago I wouldn't have given you the name Luis suarez cos i knew fuck all about him. Ditto 24 months ago I probably wouldn't have thrown up the name Modric. But players like that exist, and until we change what seems to be a flawed transfer policy, we'll struggle to beat the 15 other teams because we don't have enough world class players.

Disclaimer - there are probably spelling and grammar mistakes all through this post. My apologies for that, I'm typing in one almighty rush.


[/quote]

This is the best post I've read on here in ages. I urge anyone who hasn't read it to study it hard.

 

[Skullflower]

i pretty much completely agree. it's certainly what i'm always hoping for when we buy players.