Bundesliga = Good national team?

[Rouge Penguin]

Does having a relatively unsuccessful league in europe mean less foreigners want to play there, so you have to development your home grown talent, thereby improving your national squad?

Is that why Germany does well at international level?

 

[Oncy]

Good shout.

 

[Loch Ness Monster]

Maybe. But the Germans always bring the same ideas to a tournament. Well drilled in their formation and tactics, good solid defenders, and reliable players who work hard. Plus they are relentless robots who have been brought up on winning.

 

[The Slugmonster]

[quote author=Rouge Penguin link=topic=40586.msg1119499#msg1119499 date=1276515249]
Does having a relatively unsuccessful league in europe mean less foreigners want to play there, so you have to development your home grown talent, thereby improving your national squad?

Is that why Germany does well at international level?


[/quote]

I think deloitte released Premier League figures last week or the week before (it was on sky sports news) and they said that the bundesliga is now the richest league in the world, and with Bayern getting to the CL final things could be looking up!

The thing with this german squad is its relatively young and doesnt seem to have much fear! Didi Hammann said something of interest last night on the rte panel, that the younger players in germany arent necessarily signed by the big clubs at a young age (not until 16 or 17, he says it very different from england). Instead they would get their first taste of international football while still playing for their local teams. Hence theres a bond at national level from a really young age!

 

[Rouge Penguin]

I guess cash has a lot to do with it, maybe their clubs are run on different models, in that they have to be self sustaining.

I dont recall any of their clubs wanking huge money on players that often.

 

[mike2903]

Its not the richest but it is the most profitable. EPL's turnover was nearly double any other leagues but if you don't make money what's the chuffing point!

 

[The Slugmonster]

[quote author=mike2903 link=topic=40586.msg1119519#msg1119519 date=1276516383]
Its not the richest but it is the most profitable. EPL's turnover was nearly double any other leagues but if you don't make money what's the chuffing point!
[/quote]

Yeah that was it......but if you look at how many cracks have been papered over in england, i think the more profitable option is better! Like look at the scum, 2nd richest club in the world (or close to that) and 700 odd million in debt is on the club while the glazers debt in total is 1.1 billion!

 

[grjt]

[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=40586.msg1119521#msg1119521 date=1276517018]
[quote author=mike2903 link=topic=40586.msg1119519#msg1119519 date=1276516383]
Its not the richest but it is the most profitable. EPL's turnover was nearly double any other leagues but if you don't make money what's the chuffing point!
[/quote]

Yeah that was it......but if you look at how many cracks have been papered over in england, i think the more profitable option is better! Like look at the scum, 2nd richest club in the world (or close to that) and 700 odd million in debt is on the club while the glazers debt in total is 1.1 billion!
[/quote]

Im not sure that debt is always the dirty word to the "football business" that we fans always make it out to be.

Back to the original post, I think the comparisaon between Germany and Holland is a very interesting one - they take very different attitudes to their young player development, but both do very well at International level; is this because such a high number of the players in their national leagues are of that nationality? Certainly the Dutch cash in on them as soon as humanly possible to big clubs abroad, whereas the Germans retain higher numbers, but with the Dutch this means they simply vacate the space for the next on the production line.

 

[Holle]

I don't think that's the reason for the good German national team. In my opinion there are other reasons for this.

In 2002 the Bundesliga had a percentage of over 60% of foreign players the Premier League of about 47%, Serie A 33%. In spite of this Germany were in the World Cup finals.

In 2006 the Bundesliga installed the "Local-Player-Rule" after which each Bundesliga had to have at least 12 German players in their squad and 8 players who were home-grown. What happened was that those 12 players mostly were played in the reserves and were only used as squad-fillers. So nothing was won there.

Still the German national team went into the final of Euro 2008.

The German Bundesliga has now an average of foreign players of about 43,5% which is not exactly low. This percentage is additionally lowered by the lesser teams which have a percentage of about 25%. St Pauli which were promoted to the Bundesliga this year have not one single foreign player in their squad.

On the other hand this means that in the better teams there are still lots of foreign players. Look at Bayern, Wolfsburg or Schalke for example.

I think it has more to do with the education, mentality and discipline of German players. These are the traditional strengths of German football and they always play up to them.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Rouge Penguin link=topic=40586.msg1119499#msg1119499 date=1276515249]
Does having a relatively unsuccessful league in europe mean less foreigners want to play there, so you have to development your home grown talent, thereby improving your national squad?

Is that why Germany does well at international level?


[/quote]

Define "home grown talent". There's not a single ethnic German in that team.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=40586.msg1119561#msg1119561 date=1276521685]
[quote author=Rouge Penguin link=topic=40586.msg1119499#msg1119499 date=1276515249]
Does having a relatively unsuccessful league in europe mean less foreigners want to play there, so you have to development your home grown talent, thereby improving your national squad?

Is that why Germany does well at international level?


[/quote]

Define "home grown talent". There's not a single ethnic German in that team.
[/quote]

Schweinsteiger.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

And Lahm

 

[Sunny]

Most of them are German born. Apart from 3 Poles, a Yugoslav and a Brazilian

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=40586.msg1119566#msg1119566 date=1276522177]
Most of them are German born. Apart from 3 Poles, a Yugoslav and a Brazilian
[/quote]

Ozil has a Turkish father.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40586.msg1119563#msg1119563 date=1276521832]
And Lahm
[/quote]

Oops. ;D

The general point stands though. The question of who's foreign or home-grown isn't quite as simple as it might initially look.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=ILD link=topic=40586.msg1119567#msg1119567 date=1276522265]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=40586.msg1119566#msg1119566 date=1276522177]
Most of them are German born. Apart from 3 Poles, a Yugoslav and a Brazilian
[/quote]

Ozil has a Turkish father.
[/quote]

But was born in Germany....

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=40586.msg1119572#msg1119572 date=1276522616]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=40586.msg1119567#msg1119567 date=1276522265]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=40586.msg1119566#msg1119566 date=1276522177]
Most of them are German born. Apart from 3 Poles, a Yugoslav and a Brazilian
[/quote]

Ozil has a Turkish father.
[/quote]

But was born in Germany....
[/quote]

Ah I see. Thought he was another blow in.

 

[Holle]

1 Manuel NEUER 27/03/1986 TW Schalke 04 (GER) 190
2 Marcell JANSEN 04/11/1985 MI Hamburger SV (GER) 190
3 Arne FRIEDRICH 29/05/1979 VT Hertha Berlin (GER) 185
4 Dennis AOGO 14/01/1987 VT Hamburger SV (GER) 184
5 Serdar TASCI 24/04/1987 VT VfB Stuttgart (GER) 186
6 Sami KHEDIRA 04/04/1987 MI VfB Stuttgart (GER) 189
7 Bastian SCHWEINSTEIGER 01/08/1984 MI Bayern Munich (GER) 180
8 Mesut OEZIL 15/10/1988 MI Werder Bremen (GER) 182
9 Stefan KIESSLING 25/01/1984 ST Bayer Leverkusen (GER) 191
10 Lukas PODOLSKI 04/06/1985 ST FC Cologne (GER) 180
11 Miroslav KLOSE 09/06/1978 ST Bayern Munich (GER) 182
12 Tim WIESE 17/12/1981 TW Werder Bremen (GER) 193
13 Thomas MUELLER 13/09/1989 MI Bayern Munich (GER) 186
14 Holger BADSTUBER 13/03/1989 VT Bayern Munich (GER) 190
15 Piotr TROCHOWSKI 22/03/1984 MI Hamburger SV (GER) 168
16 Philipp LAHM 11/11/1983 VT Bayern Munich (GER) 170
17 Per MERTESACKER 29/09/1984 VT Werder Bremen (GER) 196
18 Toni KROOS 04/01/1990 MI Bayer Leverkusen (GER) 180
19 CACAU 27/03/1981 ST VfB Stuttgart (GER) 180
20 Jerome BOATENG 03/09/1988 VT Hamburger SV (GER) 192
21 Marko MARIN 13/03/1989 MI Werder Bremen (GER) 169
22 Hans Joerg BUTT 28/05/1974 TW Bayern Munich (GER) 191
23 Mario GOMEZ 10/07/1985 ST Bayern Munich (GER) 189

Aogo, Tasci, Khedira, Ozil, Boateng and Gomez were all born in Germany.

Marin was born in Bosnia and moved to Germany at the age of 2.

Podolski, Klose and Trochowski were born in Poland. Trochowski moved to Germay at age 5, Klose at age 8 and Podolski at age 2.

Cacau was born in Brazil and moved to Germany to play football at the age of 17 and is German citizen since 2009. He is the only to be considered as not home-grown.

 

[RedStar]

The most surprising thing about watching Germany yesterday is that they defied most of the preconceived ideas we have of a German team. They were skillful young players who attacked with flair and numbers at every available oppurtunity, they didnt attempt to physically bully the opposition or play a percentage game they let a talented young side go out and express themselves. They still have the self belief that has served German sides so well over the years but this is anything but the "typical" German team, Loew deserves alot of credit for having the nerve to tear up the script, especialy in a nation where expectations are so high.

I dont see the Germans winning it but I think they will be one of the most enjoyable teams to watch this time around, never thought I would say that

 

[Holle]

[quote author=RedStar link=topic=40586.msg1119609#msg1119609 date=1276524673]
The most surprising thing about watching Germany yesterday is that they defied most of the preconceived ideas we have of a German team. They were skillful young players who attacked with flair and numbers at every available oppurtunity, they didnt attempt to physically bully the opposition or play a percentage game they let a talented young side go out and express themselves. They still have the self belief that has served German sides so well over the years but this is anything but the "typical" German team, Loew deserves alot of credit for having the nerve to tear up the script, especialy in a nation where expectations are so high.

I dont see the Germans winning it but I think they will be one of the most enjoyable teams to watch this time around, never thought I would say that
[/quote]

I agree with all of that. Whether they can win it we'll see when they play against a decent team for the first time. But they are only going to get better as per.

 

[Rosco]

I'd recommend anyone wondering why to read "Soccernomics".There is a multitude of reasons put forward in that book.

However they argue directly against the point that Rouge made in the opening post, since an influx of foreigners forces the domestic players to be better to get a game.

I'm not sure exactly where i fall on the debate since players obviously get better the more they play and they would get more opportunities to play without such an influx.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I just think the Germans have a 'good at football' gene, much like the Argentinians who are born with a 'two footed' gene.

 

[Loch Ness Monster]

Soccernomics? Ross you are a boring man. Try razzle or viz.

 

[Loch Ness Monster]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40586.msg1119910#msg1119910 date=1276546529]
I just think the Germans have a 'good at football' gene, much like the Argentinians who are born with a 'two footed' gene.
[/quote]

Like SixCrazyMinutes has a mental gene?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Nah, Gene's alright.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=40586.msg1119913#msg1119913 date=1276546717]
Soccernomics? Ross you are a boring man. Try razzle or viz.
[/quote]

I love Viz.

 

[gene hughes]

Germany: 20,000 qualified coaches
England: 1,500 qualified coaches

 

[darkstarexodus]

[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=40586.msg1119949#msg1119949 date=1276549241]
Germany: 20,000 qualified coaches
England: 1,500 qualified coaches
[/quote]

I shudder to think of what Canada's total must be then.

 

[irishred]

Another set of figures regarding coaching qualifications.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8688093.stm

UEFA A & PRO COACHES in 2008
SPAIN -------------------- 14,860
GERMANY ---------------- 6,570
FRANCE ------------------- 2,588
ITALY ----------------------- 1,810
NETH'NDS ----------------- 1,137
ENGLAND ----------------- 1,010

"...that is despite it taking 750 study hours to acquire a Pro Licence in Spain, compared with just 245 in England."

 

[Judge Jules]

And yet what have Germany or France (or Spain for that matter, until the last Euros) done lately in international football? Not to decry the whole idea, but it's not the be-all and end-all either.