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4th isn't going to happen

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[quote author=Richey link=topic=47803.msg1439671#msg1439671 date=1323263580]
2006-07 CL Finals
2007-08 CL Semi finals
2008-09 CL 1/4 finals
2009-10 CL drop out in group
Click to expand...

Hmmm. What was that people were saying about the right direction?
[/quote]

This.

Rafa started with a poor squad, eventually made it good, then made it shit.

We were going in the wrong direction under him, like it or not.

I'm out of this thread never to return.
 
This threads not even about Rafa, stop dragging him into it ..... and you can't link the CL stats and leave out the EL semi or forget the Table!!

5th 3rd 3rd 4th 2nd 7th
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47803.msg1439694#msg1439694 date=1323266547]
This threads not even about Rafa, stop dragging him into it ..... and you can't link the CL stats and leave out the EL semi or forget the Table!!

5th 3rd 3rd 4th 2nd 7th
[/quote]

How many times have you posted on anything but Rafa in this thread pal?
 
He got dragged into it when Peter suggested one of the reasons he's losing patience with Dalglish is because of how Benitez was treated.

Since then people have only tried to point out that Benitez's first season was not dissimilar to this one and all of a sudden others started getting all defensive.

As far as I am aware the original point was not even a criticism of Benitez!
 
I didn't drag him into it, but someone did and now it's all about him.

You parade those league positions as it's something to be proud of. There was no Man City and consistent Tottenham then to go along with Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd.

Rafa at his best was good, sadly towards the end he was losing it. He's not God.
 
I defend Rafa when some prick slags him off, I defend Ged Houllier too if some prick slags him off, and I really disliked him towards the end of his reign, if someone twists things to make a cheap shot, I reply with the real facts.

They deserve a bit of loyalty even now .....

Anyone suggesting Kenny should be replaced at this stage is a fucking imbecile ....

Thats what I came into it for ......
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47803.msg1439696#msg1439696 date=1323266937]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47803.msg1439694#msg1439694 date=1323266547]
This threads not even about Rafa, stop dragging him into it ..... and you can't link the CL stats and leave out the EL semi or forget the Table!!

5th 3rd 3rd 4th 2nd 7th
[/quote]

How many times have you posted on anything but Rafa in this thread pal?
[/quote]

are you still harping on?

What the fucks your problem, if you dislike me PLEASE PLEASE put me on fucking ignore
 
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=47803.msg1439672#msg1439672 date=1323263628]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47803.msg1439660#msg1439660 date=1323262383]
He had 5 seasons with us Gerry and finished in the top 4 on 3 occasions. That would mean 3 out of 5 which translates to, roughly, 60%.

No, I have not forgotten that as champions we were in the CL the next season but that had nothing to do with our league performance which is what the thread is, after all, supposedly about.
[/quote]

Except our run into becoming Champions of Europe did adversely affect our league results because towards the end of that season, we rested our better players in the league before CL matches. You can't really say one competition had nothing to do with the other because our squad wasn't strong enough to compete for them both.

Rafa was right to target the CL over 4th in the league, wouldn't you say? If you agree with that, then it's unfair to beat him up for finishing 5th at the expense of winning Big Ears.
[/quote]

That's a fair point Tinto though I have a slightly different thought on it. I always felt like Rafa's team performed better in the league when they were doing well in the CL.

We were actually out of touch with Everton in 04/05 at February but a good run in the next two months saw us close to within 3 points (I think) before they had it sewn up with a couple of weeks to go. They went on to get beat by Arsenal about 7-nil or something in the last or 2nd last game but 4th was already their's.

The main point I was trying to make, however, was that all these posters wanting Kenny out for his league form in 5 months; how do they defend Rafa who's league form was just as bad if not worse in his first 5 months?
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47803.msg1439701#msg1439701 date=1323267336]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47803.msg1439696#msg1439696 date=1323266937]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47803.msg1439694#msg1439694 date=1323266547]
This threads not even about Rafa, stop dragging him into it ..... and you can't link the CL stats and leave out the EL semi or forget the Table!!

5th 3rd 3rd 4th 2nd 7th
[/quote]

How many times have you posted on anything but Rafa in this thread pal?
[/quote]

are you still harping on?

What the fucks your problem, if you dislike me PLEASE PLEASE put me on fucking ignore
[/quote]

LOL. Ahhhh......... the irony.
 
Anyway...... so, the top 4.

Loads of people are saying Spurs can't any play better than they are currently and will have a dip. I think that might apply to us too... we're playing far from badly at the moment. 11 matches unbeaten before Monday... our back 4 is very sound, Adam and Lucas (before his injury) were very good indeed and Suarez is Suarez.

I think there's might be more to come from Caroll and Henderson but is their improvement enough to propel us into the top four? Unlikely, I would say now. So, how else are we going to get there? Downing? Nope! There's Gerrard of course, our best goalscorer, but nobody seems know if he is the same player now or even if he will be back.

To have a chance of qualifying for the CL, I think Henry and co and will need to dip into their pockets and find us a player in January that will have the same impact as Suarez did. Otherwise I don't currently see who will provide the improvement that we need.
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47803.msg1439704#msg1439704 date=1323267473]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47803.msg1439701#msg1439701 date=1323267336]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47803.msg1439696#msg1439696 date=1323266937]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47803.msg1439694#msg1439694 date=1323266547]
This threads not even about Rafa, stop dragging him into it ..... and you can't link the CL stats and leave out the EL semi or forget the Table!!

5th 3rd 3rd 4th 2nd 7th
[/quote]

How many times have you posted on anything but Rafa in this thread pal?
[/quote]

are you still harping on?

What the fucks your problem, if you dislike me PLEASE PLEASE put me on fucking ignore
[/quote]

LOL. Ahhhh......... the irony.
[/quote]

You started with the insults, but I put it down to getting your facts wrong and trying to dig yourself out of a hole, don't worry, I don't know you, have no interest in you whatsoever, and I am trying to be polite but am using the odd swear words out of frustration .....
 
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=47803.msg1439705#msg1439705 date=1323267516]
Anyway...... so, the top 4.

Loads of people are saying Spurs can't any play better than they are currently and will have a dip. I think that might apply to us too... we're playing far from badly at the moment. 11 matches unbeaten before Monday... our back 4 is very sound, Adam and Lucas (before his injury) were very good indeed and Suarez is Suarez.

I think there's might be more to come from Caroll and Henderson but is their improvement enough to propel us into the top four? Unlikely, I would say now. So, how else are we going to get there? Downing? Nope! There's Gerrard of course, our best goalscorer, but nobody seems know if he is the same player now or even if he will be back.

To have a chance of qualifying for the CL, I think Henry and co and will need to dip into their pockets and find us a player in January that will have the same impact as Suarez did. Otherwise I don't currently see who will provide the improvement that we need.
[/quote]

People are over complicating it IMO. Our performances this season haven't been near the level they were under Kenny last season. Ming is a (major) reason for this but the rest of the team is underperforming in key areas. Suarez isn't getting the goals and nor is Carroll from last season. Kuyt hasn't been running with the same vigour and Maxi hasn't had the same affect.... for obvious reasons.

All that said, if Henry can find the pockets to finance 20m in Jan and Damien or Kenny can scout a goal poacher then our season will change dramatically. Your point on the last 11 games is sound and the propensity for people to dive into full panic mode is remarkable. Fullham was frustrating as hell - as frustrating as its been for over a year. But those games are going to happen; we had a number of them in 08/09 but still finished in 2nd while not playing as well as a team, IMO, as we have on many occasions this season. The difference is the goals not the chances; we haven't had a raging Stevie Gerrard nor an absolute form of his life Torres. One goal scorer instead of Carroll would have seen us on the tails of Spurs rather than looking over our shoulder at Stoke.
 
Yes, I think a goal scorer, or another player in the same mould as Suarez, would all but ensure us getting into the top four, and maybe even better. We're pretty sound defensively, and fully fit, we're pretty strong in midfield. Suarez is obviously good enough(despite his lack of goals), so we're basically short out wide(as usual) and with a second striker(as usual). A bit of confidence up front wouldn't go astray too, Kuyt and Carroll are both capable of scoring enough to get us further up the table.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47803.msg1439707#msg1439707 date=1323267700]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47803.msg1439704#msg1439704 date=1323267473]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47803.msg1439701#msg1439701 date=1323267336]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47803.msg1439696#msg1439696 date=1323266937]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47803.msg1439694#msg1439694 date=1323266547]
This threads not even about Rafa, stop dragging him into it ..... and you can't link the CL stats and leave out the EL semi or forget the Table!!

5th 3rd 3rd 4th 2nd 7th
[/quote]

How many times have you posted on anything but Rafa in this thread pal?
[/quote]

are you still harping on?

What the fucks your problem, if you dislike me PLEASE PLEASE put me on fucking ignore
[/quote]

LOL. Ahhhh......... the irony.
[/quote]

You started with the insults, but I put it down to getting your facts wrong and trying to dig yourself out of a hole, don't worry, I don't know you, have no interest in you whatsoever, and I am trying to be polite but am using the odd swear words out of frustration .....
[/quote]

If by insults you mean exposing your bias then I get it. Otherwise I'm not sure how to explain it............ maybe you're just afraid of balance.
 
The no. of points dropped between now and then (when and if any player is signed - assuming he turns out to be a good one), the amount of ground to make up, might be too big to ensure CL qualification. Alas, I think it is vital for us to be looking at options and continue strengthening. We need to make full use of each and every transfer window - and of course, every signing.

I remember a post stating how our Jan signings over the past few seasons have turned out well and I think long term wise, the extra few months of bedding in will help us the following season. The only thing I fear is the board holds on to the spending in view of lack of CL revenue - should we be too far behind by Jan.
 
You guys are much too harsh on Kenny. He "baffles" you with his decisions? Am I dreaming or did we not just beat Chelsea twice at Stamford Bridge? And do we not play (mostly) positive, entertaining football? And is this not the most competitive fight you have ever seen for the top 4 spots?

Have some patience.
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47803.msg1439719#msg1439719 date=1323268901]
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=47803.msg1439705#msg1439705 date=1323267516]
Anyway...... so, the top 4.

Loads of people are saying Spurs can't any play better than they are currently and will have a dip. I think that might apply to us too... we're playing far from badly at the moment. 11 matches unbeaten before Monday... our back 4 is very sound, Adam and Lucas (before his injury) were very good indeed and Suarez is Suarez.

I think there's might be more to come from Caroll and Henderson but is their improvement enough to propel us into the top four? Unlikely, I would say now. So, how else are we going to get there? Downing? Nope! There's Gerrard of course, our best goalscorer, but nobody seems know if he is the same player now or even if he will be back.

To have a chance of qualifying for the CL, I think Henry and co and will need to dip into their pockets and find us a player in January that will have the same impact as Suarez did. Otherwise I don't currently see who will provide the improvement that we need.
[/quote]

People are over complicating it IMO. Our performances this season haven't been near the level they were under Kenny last season. Ming is a (major) reason for this but the rest of the team is underperforming in key areas. [/quote]

I seriously cannot believe how much value you place on Ming. We haven't been winning games - be it against the Shitties or the Sunderlands - not because we're missing a midfielder. We've been losing games b/c we're not scoring enough goals. Meirless, bar one lovely run of 5 goals in 6 (I think), wouldn't have helped us in that department. We aren't winning games because we have no one to share the workload up front with Suarez. If we had one goalscorer, as you mentioned, we'd be fighting with Spurs for 2nd, if not 1st. If we had one Raul, we'd probably be exactly where we are now ...
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47803.msg1439536#msg1439536 date=1323242728]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=47803.msg1439517#msg1439517 date=1323236287]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47803.msg1439086#msg1439086 date=1323174324]
I'm pretty sure sure people are forgetting the mire that Rafa and Hodgson left us in.

You can't turnover a squad as bad as we had in two transfer windows
[/quote]

The mire that Rafa left us in? We have the joint best defense in the league now and who are the defenders? Reina, GJ, Agger, Skrtel, Enrique and Lucas. All Rafa players except Enrique. We are tenth in goal scored and who are the attackers? Adam, Kuyt, Hendersen, Downing, Bellemy, Carrol and Suaraz. All kenny's players except Kuyt. Over 100M spent during the process. But still rafa is responsible for the lack of team's quality?

Rafa's squad in his last disastrous season got 63 points and 7th in the league. Houllier squad in his last season got 60 points and 4th in the league. Now of course rafa's squad was worst in the last 20 years and somehow Houllier's was CL winning quality. Any manager could win CL with Ged's team. Rafa can only thank Houllier for his generosity because Ged held back his team's full potential so that rafa could claim all the credits (same thing happened for his france team). What a generous man.


[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47803.msg1439397#msg1439397 date=1323204379]

Ironically I'm the Rafa Facts club.

I'll throw another one out there - The worst owners the club has ever seen actually subsidised Benitez's transfer business. True fact.
[/quote]

Sunday Mirror research reveals Liverpool’s net spending during the American duo’s reign was only £25.1m and that's before the sale of Torres for 30M profit. Could we call it "self-sufficient" instead? But please don't let the facts stand in the way of your "Hate Campaign". Rafa's also responsible for global warming and world poverty anyway.
[/quote]

Houllier left a CL team behind, one with a couple of additions was good enough to win the CL. Benitez left us in 7th place, i.e. midtable.

You can list off whatever names you want but the fact is we were a lot worse after Benitez left than after Houllier left.
[/quote]

Rosco, this is one of the most unbelievable things I have ever read on SCM. Houllier left is in a better situation? Come on now. Let's be sensible.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47803.msg1439723#msg1439723 date=1323269251]
Yes, I think a goal scorer, or another player in the same mould as Suarez, would all but ensure us getting into the top four, and maybe even better. We're pretty sound defensively, and fully fit, we're pretty strong in midfield. Suarez is obviously good enough(despite his lack of goals), so we're basically short out wide(as usual) and with a second striker(as usual). A bit of confidence up front wouldn't go astray too, Kuyt and Carroll are both capable of scoring enough to get us further up the table.
[/quote]

Agreed - particularly re Carroll. The problem there is that I just don't quite see either of them being able to go on a goal scoring run. We need to either see goals from several players (Downing, Bellamy, Adam, Suarez, Maxi, CarrollKuyt) which is unlikely to happen regularly IMO or we need a goal scorer in the Owen mould.

It's simplistic but no more extremely so than those who think we haven't got a hope.
 
[quote author=iseered link=topic=47803.msg1439733#msg1439733 date=1323270358]
You guys are much too harsh on Kenny. He "baffles" you with his decisions? Am I dreaming or did we not just beat Chelsea twice at Stamford Bridge? And do we not play (mostly) positive, entertaining football? And is this not the most competitive fight you have ever seen for the top 4 spots?

Have some patience.
[/quote]


It's because the player they favour aren't playing and their scrapegoats are!
 
We could do with a goalscorer. Imagine a 20 year old Robbie Fowler getting set up by Suarez!

Carroll was top scorer in the league when we signed him. I expect they thought he could continue to score goals. But he's never going to be that type of player, a goal every other game. Its cos he's shit at football.
 
[quote author=Mistadobalina link=topic=47803.msg1439746#msg1439746 date=1323271429]
We could do with a goalscorer. Imagine a 20 year old Robbie Fowler getting set up by Suarez!

Carroll was top scorer in the league when we signed him. I expect they thought he could continue to score goals. But he's never going to be that type of player, a goal every other game. Its cos he's shit at football.
[/quote]


Or Torres in his prime!


*runs*
 
[quote author=iseered link=topic=47803.msg1439733#msg1439733 date=1323270358]
You guys are much too harsh on Kenny. He "baffles" you with his decisions? Am I dreaming or did we not just beat Chelsea twice at Stamford Bridge? And do we not play (mostly) positive, entertaining football? And is this not the most competitive fight you have ever seen for the top 4 spots?

Have some patience.
[/quote]X 10000000000000000000000000000

I am actually struck dumb by some of the opinions expressed in this thread.
 
[quote author=Mistadobalina link=topic=47803.msg1439746#msg1439746 date=1323271429]
We could do with a goalscorer. Imagine a 20 year old Robbie Fowler getting set up by Suarez!

Carroll was top scorer in the league when we signed him. I expect they thought he could continue to score goals. But he's never going to be that type of player, a goal every other game. Its cos he's shit at football.
[/quote]

we need more than that. it would be really nice to have at least three attacking players that could be relied upon to create and score consistantly. when was the last time we had 3 genuine goal threats? I'd say barnes, aldo and beardo.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47803.msg1439754#msg1439754 date=1323272230]


we need more than that. it would be really nice to have at least three attacking players that could be relied upon to create and score consistantly. when was the last time we had 3 genuine goal threats? I'd say barnes, aldo and beardo.
[/quote]

Fowler, Collymore, McManaman?
Owen, Heskey, Gerrard?
Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt?
 
1985-86 was last time we had 6 players in double figures Rush 33, Molby 21, Walsh 18, Whelan 14, McMahon 10 and Johnston 10
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47803.msg1439737#msg1439737 date=1323270645]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=47803.msg1439719#msg1439719 date=1323268901]
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=47803.msg1439705#msg1439705 date=1323267516]
Anyway...... so, the top 4.

Loads of people are saying Spurs can't any play better than they are currently and will have a dip. I think that might apply to us too... we're playing far from badly at the moment. 11 matches unbeaten before Monday... our back 4 is very sound, Adam and Lucas (before his injury) were very good indeed and Suarez is Suarez.

I think there's might be more to come from Caroll and Henderson but is their improvement enough to propel us into the top four? Unlikely, I would say now. So, how else are we going to get there? Downing? Nope! There's Gerrard of course, our best goalscorer, but nobody seems know if he is the same player now or even if he will be back.

To have a chance of qualifying for the CL, I think Henry and co and will need to dip into their pockets and find us a player in January that will have the same impact as Suarez did. Otherwise I don't currently see who will provide the improvement that we need.
[/quote]

People are over complicating it IMO. Our performances this season haven't been near the level they were under Kenny last season. Ming is a (major) reason for this but the rest of the team is underperforming in key areas. [/quote]

I seriously cannot believe how much value you place on Ming. We haven't been winning games - be it against the Shitties or the Sunderlands - not because we're missing a midfielder. We've been losing games b/c we're not scoring enough goals. Meirless, bar one lovely run of 5 goals in 6 (I think), wouldn't have helped us in that department. We aren't winning games because we have no one to share the workload up front with Suarez. If we had one goalscorer, as you mentioned, we'd be fighting with Spurs for 2nd, if not 1st. If we had one Raul, we'd probably be exactly where we are now ...
[/quote]

Yeah, no chance there's a link between our good play with goals and our good play without goals and his departure.

I know you're one of those guys who just doesn't rate someone like Ming LTW but here's the basis of it; Raul could find space in a phone box and as such he kept dragging players out of position. The fact he'd score a few goals increased the need for the opposition to stay with him which, in turn, increased their efforts to follow him. The result is more space for everyone else in the forward third and the opportunity to move the ball forward more quickly because the midfield always had a forward outlet.

I'm not saying Ming was the best thing we've seen but his strengths complimented our needs perfectly.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47803.msg1439764#msg1439764 date=1323272774]
1985-86 was last time we had 6 players in double figures Rush 33, Molby 21, Walsh 18, Whelan 14, McMahon 10 and Johnston 10
[/quote]

2007-08 as well mate. Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt, Crouch, Benayoun, Babel
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=47803.msg1439770#msg1439770 date=1323272948]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47803.msg1439764#msg1439764 date=1323272774]
1985-86 was last time we had 6 players in double figures Rush 33, Molby 21, Walsh 18, Whelan 14, McMahon 10 and Johnston 10
[/quote]

2007-08 as well mate. Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt, Crouch, Benayoun, Babel
[/quote]

Heh, Yossi! I knew we'd done it but couldn't remember Yossi.

He'd be a nice fit for us at the moment too though I think Henderson deserves a chance in the current situation.
 
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