4th isn't going to happen
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good post bell
good post oncy.
a lot of people say gh and rafa overstayed their welcome but imho both had earned their stay of execution.
a lot of people say gh and rafa overstayed their welcome but imho both had earned their stay of execution.
it's a nice post, i agree. but my mind's long been made up about houllier, and the only thing (and it IS a big one, tbf) that stops me from considering him a failure is his illness in 2001, after which he never seemed the same.
i think it's misjudged to give him the credit he frequently receives for 'saving the club'. he's a competent manager: he instils discipline. evans wasn't. so it was a natural change. ok, might have taken a few months to change the atmosphere and ship out a few of the worst offenders, but basically we're talking about getting a bunch of footballers to toe the line. it's not fucking rocket science. so no sentimentality for him from me, sorry.
people, i guess because the high rate of inflation over the two periods, just don't seem to grasp how much money he was given to spend. alright, i'd concede that it probably wasn't as much as utd, but then i never felt we should automatically expect the league from the investment, but i'd certainly expect much better challenges. Paul Tomkins (yeah, yeah) does a lot of writing around transfer inflation, and according to his figures (they're pretty methodically produced) GH spent more than twice per annum what RB did. i always felt that at the time - i suppose i've just got a natural affinity for figures and business.
i think he was just about an alright manager for us, overall. nothing more, nothing less.
i think it's misjudged to give him the credit he frequently receives for 'saving the club'. he's a competent manager: he instils discipline. evans wasn't. so it was a natural change. ok, might have taken a few months to change the atmosphere and ship out a few of the worst offenders, but basically we're talking about getting a bunch of footballers to toe the line. it's not fucking rocket science. so no sentimentality for him from me, sorry.
people, i guess because the high rate of inflation over the two periods, just don't seem to grasp how much money he was given to spend. alright, i'd concede that it probably wasn't as much as utd, but then i never felt we should automatically expect the league from the investment, but i'd certainly expect much better challenges. Paul Tomkins (yeah, yeah) does a lot of writing around transfer inflation, and according to his figures (they're pretty methodically produced) GH spent more than twice per annum what RB did. i always felt that at the time - i suppose i've just got a natural affinity for figures and business.
i think he was just about an alright manager for us, overall. nothing more, nothing less.
[quote author=Buddha link=topic=47803.msg1440258#msg1440258 date=1323346287]
I meant Oncy. Predictive text or freudian slip?
[/quote]
ha ha ha
herr 'inch' onceared
woman avoid him like the plague 😉
I meant Oncy. Predictive text or freudian slip?
[/quote]
ha ha ha
herr 'inch' onceared
woman avoid him like the plague 😉
Benitez wasted money. Like gerard did. Like kenny is doing. Its part of the game.
For me, with houllier and benitez they bought players for how they wanted to play so they got given my patience.
Kenny...not thus far. he's not playing to carrolls strengths, not suarez, nor hendo. All signings he made.
Suarez should always be playing off a striker, for his movement and vision will set up chances or create his own . Playing with his back to goal doesn't work that well.
Carroll needs someone to do the donkey work for him. He needs chances on a plate. Sure he's missed sitters but he's been in and out the squad continually. A player can't find form or adapt if not given time. Yes he looks like a colossal este of money bit I'm confident he will prove to be a good asset
hendo needs to be played centrally. that's just fact. His close control and vision can hurt teams through the middle. Sadly though he just seems to be seen as a utility player across the midfield.
Also ...shelvey... he's in direct competition with hendo for the position as AM . I can't see kenny picking him. Another reason why I'm unimpressed.
Yes kenny is a legend . And ? Times change and the game has changed. I worry that this could turn out like a keegan return to newcastle. I just hope he's a success and if he isn't, his reputation won't be too hurt.
For me, with houllier and benitez they bought players for how they wanted to play so they got given my patience.
Kenny...not thus far. he's not playing to carrolls strengths, not suarez, nor hendo. All signings he made.
Suarez should always be playing off a striker, for his movement and vision will set up chances or create his own . Playing with his back to goal doesn't work that well.
Carroll needs someone to do the donkey work for him. He needs chances on a plate. Sure he's missed sitters but he's been in and out the squad continually. A player can't find form or adapt if not given time. Yes he looks like a colossal este of money bit I'm confident he will prove to be a good asset
hendo needs to be played centrally. that's just fact. His close control and vision can hurt teams through the middle. Sadly though he just seems to be seen as a utility player across the midfield.
Also ...shelvey... he's in direct competition with hendo for the position as AM . I can't see kenny picking him. Another reason why I'm unimpressed.
Yes kenny is a legend . And ? Times change and the game has changed. I worry that this could turn out like a keegan return to newcastle. I just hope he's a success and if he isn't, his reputation won't be too hurt.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=47803.msg1440261#msg1440261 date=1323346590]
it's a nice post, i agree. but my mind's long been made up about houllier, and the only thing (and it IS a big one, tbf) that stops me from considering him a failure is his illness in 2001, after which he never seemed the same.
i think it's misjudged to give him the credit he frequently receives for 'saving the club'. he's a competent manager: he instils discipline. evans wasn't. so it was a natural change. ok, might have taken a few months to change the atmosphere and ship out a few of the worst offenders, but basically we're talking about getting a bunch of footballers to toe the line. it's not fucking rocket science. so no sentimentality for him from me, sorry.
people, i guess because the high rate of inflation over the two periods, just don't seem to grasp how much money he was given to spend. alright, i'd concede that it probably wasn't as much as utd, but then i never felt we should automatically expect the league from the investment, but i'd certainly expect much better challenges. Paul Tomkins (yeah, yeah) does a lot of writing around transfer inflation, and according to his figures (they're pretty methodically produced) GH spent more than twice per annum what RB did. i always felt that at the time - i suppose i've just got a natural affinity for figures and business.
i think he was just about an alright manager for us, overall. nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]
Pete, have you managed people before? Especially, over-paid, over-confident, slightly limited in intelligence people? It's not rocket science but it's also not very easy.
it's a nice post, i agree. but my mind's long been made up about houllier, and the only thing (and it IS a big one, tbf) that stops me from considering him a failure is his illness in 2001, after which he never seemed the same.
i think it's misjudged to give him the credit he frequently receives for 'saving the club'. he's a competent manager: he instils discipline. evans wasn't. so it was a natural change. ok, might have taken a few months to change the atmosphere and ship out a few of the worst offenders, but basically we're talking about getting a bunch of footballers to toe the line. it's not fucking rocket science. so no sentimentality for him from me, sorry.
people, i guess because the high rate of inflation over the two periods, just don't seem to grasp how much money he was given to spend. alright, i'd concede that it probably wasn't as much as utd, but then i never felt we should automatically expect the league from the investment, but i'd certainly expect much better challenges. Paul Tomkins (yeah, yeah) does a lot of writing around transfer inflation, and according to his figures (they're pretty methodically produced) GH spent more than twice per annum what RB did. i always felt that at the time - i suppose i've just got a natural affinity for figures and business.
i think he was just about an alright manager for us, overall. nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]
Pete, have you managed people before? Especially, over-paid, over-confident, slightly limited in intelligence people? It's not rocket science but it's also not very easy.
Peter's post is so dismissive of Houllier's achievements I can feel the eye blood returning.
I just don't buy that it was a big deal. I can't prove it, and no-one can prove the opposite. So I'm unmoved.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=47803.msg1440430#msg1440430 date=1323388980]
I just don't buy that it was a big deal. I can't prove it, and no-one can prove the opposite. So I'm unmoved.
[/quote]
Okay.
*Bows down to Rafa, God of Gods*
I just don't buy that it was a big deal. I can't prove it, and no-one can prove the opposite. So I'm unmoved.
[/quote]
Okay.
*Bows down to Rafa, God of Gods*
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=47803.msg1440430#msg1440430 date=1323388980]
I just don't buy that it was a big deal. I can't prove it, and no-one can prove the opposite. So I'm unmoved.
[/quote]
Underplaying every other managers achievements and over exaggerating Rafa's?
Evans was in the shit, there was no discipline at the club, we were stuck with the bootroom mentality. While United were making strides into Europe again and starting to become a force both on and off the field, we were a laughing stock. Barnes, by many accounts, was the voice in the dressing room, Collymore shagged Evans' daughter for Christ sakes.
Ged came in and gradually, over 12 months or so, brought discipline and team spirit and a work ethic back to the club. Some of the football we played in the treble season and the season after was frighteningly good, as it was in Rafa's top premiership season. He lost it after his illness and with his inability to break the restraints of his philosophy, but he hit his height and achieved a good league finish, put us back on the European map and gave us some much needed silverware.
Rafa took the next step from UEFA Cup specialists and dominated the Champions League, particularly over two legs where his tactical ability really shone. Again he had a philosophy that he struggled to bend, but during the season we finished 2nd we played some of the best stuff I've seen us play, which was undermined by his choices in the transfer market which had nil effect on our league campaign (had he brought in the right players, we might have got that league title). Once he hit that height I think he struggled to maintain it, you might argue that the problems off the pitch were the prime cause, most others would say he lost his grip in the transfer market & failed to sign the right players with the more than reasonable resources he had over those two seasons, that would have made the difference to a side that already had a sound foundation.
You say that you don't see much in Houllier's legacy. I think you only have to look at the positions where Rafa struggled to find replacements and neither bought one good wide player.
Both played a massive part in taking us a step forward, though during an era when we needed strides more than steps, both proved they just didn't have enough in them when the pressure was on.
I just don't buy that it was a big deal. I can't prove it, and no-one can prove the opposite. So I'm unmoved.
[/quote]
Underplaying every other managers achievements and over exaggerating Rafa's?
Evans was in the shit, there was no discipline at the club, we were stuck with the bootroom mentality. While United were making strides into Europe again and starting to become a force both on and off the field, we were a laughing stock. Barnes, by many accounts, was the voice in the dressing room, Collymore shagged Evans' daughter for Christ sakes.
Ged came in and gradually, over 12 months or so, brought discipline and team spirit and a work ethic back to the club. Some of the football we played in the treble season and the season after was frighteningly good, as it was in Rafa's top premiership season. He lost it after his illness and with his inability to break the restraints of his philosophy, but he hit his height and achieved a good league finish, put us back on the European map and gave us some much needed silverware.
Rafa took the next step from UEFA Cup specialists and dominated the Champions League, particularly over two legs where his tactical ability really shone. Again he had a philosophy that he struggled to bend, but during the season we finished 2nd we played some of the best stuff I've seen us play, which was undermined by his choices in the transfer market which had nil effect on our league campaign (had he brought in the right players, we might have got that league title). Once he hit that height I think he struggled to maintain it, you might argue that the problems off the pitch were the prime cause, most others would say he lost his grip in the transfer market & failed to sign the right players with the more than reasonable resources he had over those two seasons, that would have made the difference to a side that already had a sound foundation.
You say that you don't see much in Houllier's legacy. I think you only have to look at the positions where Rafa struggled to find replacements and neither bought one good wide player.
Both played a massive part in taking us a step forward, though during an era when we needed strides more than steps, both proved they just didn't have enough in them when the pressure was on.
Good post, Mark, sadly I wouldn't have bothered wasting your time on it.
[quote author=ILD link=topic=47803.msg1440893#msg1440893 date=1323512274]
Just caught up with this thread. It really kicked off in here. Enjoyed reading both sides of it.
That Peatcheo lad is gone awful slack with the popcorn these days isn't he?
[/quote]
Ah, he's off being hip and trendeh in clubs.
He's a huge disappointment to me so.
Just caught up with this thread. It really kicked off in here. Enjoyed reading both sides of it.
That Peatcheo lad is gone awful slack with the popcorn these days isn't he?
[/quote]
Ah, he's off being hip and trendeh in clubs.
He's a huge disappointment to me so.
mark, i don't know why you're still banging on about GH. I KNOW what happened. i KNOW the club was rife with indiscipline under Evans. I KNOW this changed under Houllier. I've already said I just don't think changing that around was a particularly impressive achievement - that's my judgement and i'll certainly not change it just because you choose to repeat the basic details again and again.
Peter, to clarify, are you also turning your nose up to the 5 trophies Houllier won in 12 months and his second place finish?
Yes and no. 5 trophies? I remember 3 and a couple of trinkets. 2nd place finish - great effort, but GH wasn't actually manager for half of that season, so I also take that into account.
Plus, I resent the implication. I've given what I consider to be sound criticisms of Houllier. If you don't like them then respond in kind with relevant arguments. Don't make out I'm just biased against him, at least until you've at least attempted to defend my criticisms of him.
Plus, I resent the implication. I've given what I consider to be sound criticisms of Houllier. If you don't like them then respond in kind with relevant arguments. Don't make out I'm just biased against him, at least until you've at least attempted to defend my criticisms of him.
UEFA Cup. FA Cup. Two League Cups. Trinkets?
Charity shield and Super Cup, not important trophies but ho hum.
Your criticisms of him seem ridiculous considering he and Benitez were both guilty of the same flaws fundamentally.
Both came in and turned the club round during difficult times when the previous manager's approach had gone stale. Made the club successful and competitive again, but ultimately hit their peak, went a bit mad, and couldn't take that next step and sustain and build on their previous success. Which instead led to the club threatening to head towards the wrong direction.
He came in, turned it round, did really well... bought great players... finished second, in the next HUGELY important transfer market got it disasterously wrong and wasted a load of money on shit players... performances dropped... he went a bit nuts and started to blame everybody but himself, and ultimately had to go as we were in danger of becoming even worse under him... the players clearly weren't responding to his methods anymore...
Notice how I could be talking about either manager there and didn't have to differentiate?
Both great managers. Neither good enough, in the end. So I find it strange that you poo-poo Houllier's achievements but champion Rafa's when they both share very similar lineage (although, admittedly Rafa was an upgrade on Ged). Both men were very important to this club.
I don't really know why I posted that, because it wasted about ten minutes of my life when I have coursework and exams to prepare for. I suppose I naively hope to change your highly polarised opinion of Benitez, but I know it won't, and you'll post something that I probably completely disagree with, and thus the eternal struggle shall continue
Your criticisms of him seem ridiculous considering he and Benitez were both guilty of the same flaws fundamentally.
Both came in and turned the club round during difficult times when the previous manager's approach had gone stale. Made the club successful and competitive again, but ultimately hit their peak, went a bit mad, and couldn't take that next step and sustain and build on their previous success. Which instead led to the club threatening to head towards the wrong direction.
He came in, turned it round, did really well... bought great players... finished second, in the next HUGELY important transfer market got it disasterously wrong and wasted a load of money on shit players... performances dropped... he went a bit nuts and started to blame everybody but himself, and ultimately had to go as we were in danger of becoming even worse under him... the players clearly weren't responding to his methods anymore...
Notice how I could be talking about either manager there and didn't have to differentiate?
Both great managers. Neither good enough, in the end. So I find it strange that you poo-poo Houllier's achievements but champion Rafa's when they both share very similar lineage (although, admittedly Rafa was an upgrade on Ged). Both men were very important to this club.
I don't really know why I posted that, because it wasted about ten minutes of my life when I have coursework and exams to prepare for. I suppose I naively hope to change your highly polarised opinion of Benitez, but I know it won't, and you'll post something that I probably completely disagree with, and thus the eternal struggle shall continue
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=47803.msg1441287#msg1441287 date=1323545391]
UEFA Cup. FA Cup. Two League Cups. Trinkets?
[/quote]
I think/hope he was referring to the Charity Shield and Super Cup.
If he's referring to the bulk of his haul then he's a moron. But I doubt he is.
UEFA Cup. FA Cup. Two League Cups. Trinkets?
[/quote]
I think/hope he was referring to the Charity Shield and Super Cup.
If he's referring to the bulk of his haul then he's a moron. But I doubt he is.
Look, you're right: you can't win firstly because it's my personal opinion: I don't think he's a particularly good manager, and not in the same league as Benitez.
Secondly, you couldn't win because I'm right and almost impossible to beat in an argument.
Secondly, you couldn't win because I'm right and almost impossible to beat in an argument.
Yes nothing beats stubborness and ignorance, you're right.
What am I ignorant of?
Houllier's achievements.
Anyway be arsed. Rafa is the best manager ever. You win.
Anyway be arsed. Rafa is the best manager ever. You win.
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