West Hammered (post match)

[rurikbird]

Yes he was. If ever a game epitomised Can, this was the one.

He fucked us up about 4 or 5 times that I counted, giving the ball away in our own half. One led to the goal. If it were Henderson or Lallana they'd have been ripped apart, but amazingly people kept banging on about lofted balls over the top equating to an amazing game. He did some good and got the goal, but as a holding midfielder he's pants, and he's a player who has played there and in defense internationally and for his previous club, yet his positioning and overall defensive ability is shit.

Maybe I missed a couple of his giveaways as I was making breakfast, but I though an errant header in windy conditions is hardly something to crucify a player over, especially since he did put out a lot of these fires himself very easily. Clear mistake for the goal, of course, but again nothing criminal – took a risk and got tackled. My point is, when your holding mid can physically dominate midfield like Can did, generally defend well AND score AND assist in the same game – that's quite a range for one player. If Gini or Hendo did this, I think this would be hailed as their most productive game of the season by far; somehow because Can has these kinds games far more often he gets less credit for them.

 

[Insignificance]

Yes he was. If ever a game epitomised Can, this was the one.

He fucked us up about 4 or 5 times that I counted, giving the ball away in our own half. One led to the goal. If it were Henderson or Lallana they'd have been ripped apart, but amazingly people kept banging on about lofted balls over the top equating to an amazing game. He did some good and got the goal, but as a holding midfielder he's pants, and he's a player who has played there and in defense internationally and for his previous club, yet his positioning and overall defensive ability is shit.

Disagree. I am often critical to our midfield but yesterday they were good all of them. Er dominated, runned, pressed and controlled the game through the mid for once. That we make mistakes doesn' make it a shit performance. The standard can't be faultless or shit.

 

[mark1975]

Disagree. I am often critical to our midfield but yesterday they were good all of them. Er dominated, runned, pressed and controlled the game through the mid for once. That we make mistakes doesn' make it a shit performance. The standard can't be faultless or shit.

Mistakes don't equal a great performance. He gave the ball away 4 or 5 times that led to danger, one led to a goal. It's that sort of stupidity that's cost us in other games. The keeper has improved and the defense has improved, the midfield needs to improve too.

 

[Kay Age El]

I thought Can was pretty great yesterday overall.

 

[Woland]

Maybe I missed a couple of his giveaways as I was making tea, but I though an errant header in windy conditions is hardly something to crucify a player over, especially since he did put out a lot of these fires himself very easily. Clear mistake for the goal, of course, but again nothing criminal – took a risk and got tackled. My point is, when your holding mid can physically dominate midfield like Can did, generally defend well AND score AND assist in the same game – that's quite a range for one player. If Gini or Hendo did this, I think this would be hailed as their most productive game of the season by far; somehow because Can has these kinds games far more often he gets less credit for them.

You gave him MotM in that other thread, I don't understand it at all... I haven't made my mind up between Robertson and Frim yet. So yeah, he scored and got an assist, which on paper is great... but he was fucking hapless most of the game. Gave the ball away constantly, gifted them a goal, made wrong passing decisions more than anyone... The one thing he did well was digging himself out of shit that he himself had casued. He's got good tackling stats because at least he had the energy and desire to go and win the ball back after he'd lost it, but that's some awful motivation for upping your stats, embarrassment. If he was a striker you'd probably accept all that, but he was our deepest midfielder and definitely our worst.

 

[rurikbird]

You gave him MotM in that other thread, I don't understand it at all... I haven't made my mind up between Robinson and Frim yet. So yeah, he scored and got an assist, which on paper is great... but he was fucking hapless most of the game. Gave the ball away constantly, gifted them a goal, made wrong passing decisions more than anyone... The one thing he did well was digging himself out of shit that he himself had casued. He's got good tackling stats because at least he had the energy and desire to go and win the ball back after he'd lost it, but that's some awful motivation for upping your stats, embarrassment. If he was a striker you'd probably accept all that, but he was our deepest midfielder and definitely our worst.

I guess we'll have to disagree then. I've been very critical of Can in the past, but in this game I was impressed with his overall play, not just the goal and the assist. Apparently quite a few people saw it differently, but others same as me (for instance the West Ham fan who was interviewed).

 

[Woland]

Fuck the West Ham fan. But yeah, I'm not saying you're wrong coz I might be biased against him or something and he did have a few good moments, I just think he makes far too many mistakes and makes the wrong decision too many times for a side that wants to win things. Same as Matip. On the plus side, the full backs and keeper are improving every game.

 

[got red on me]

@Woland

quiffer

 

[6TimesaRed]

When you are about to score, but can't stop worrying about Karius in goal

 

[James]

Karius has been impressive lately. That save will do his confidence the world of good.

 

[Woland]

@Woland

quiffer

Unquiffed

 

[manwithnoname]

I thought Can was pretty great yesterday overall.

Yeah, the capitulation in midfield for their goal was horrible, and left us totally exposed, so it is a minus, but he was literally and metaphorically central to our overall control of midfield; he dictated play for us and was always showing for the ball and used it well. Plus he scored the vital first goal.

I thought he was impressive, but he was well supported by a gritty and industrial performance from the typically hardworking Milner who never gave West Ham an inch anywhere on the pitch, and also the excellent attacking power from Chamberlain, who was very good indeed.

It was a great team performance and not one player was below a 7; even Matip recovered from a mediocre first half and looked good in the second 45 minutes, and obviously once again the front three were just deadly; pace, work rate, amazing ball skills and most importantly scoring goals.

Virgil seems to have had the sort of overall positive effect on the defence and goalkeeper that you would expect from the most expensive defender on Earth, and TAA and the wonderful Robertson (amazing to think he was second choice LB for the first third of the season) were both brilliant

 

[mark1975]

The fullbacks are a big plus, I can't think of any in the league I'd swap them for right now. And for all of TAA's attacking quality over defensive ability, he makes fewer mistakes than the more defensive Gomez.

 

[Woland]

I thought Milner was boss. Didn't put a foot wrong and shat out of nothing. Just wish we'd bought him when he left Leeds for Newcastle.

 

[Frogfish]

Maybe I missed a couple of his giveaways as I was making breakfast, but I though an errant header in windy conditions is hardly something to crucify a player over, especially since he did put out a lot of these fires himself very easily. Clear mistake for the goal, of course, but again nothing criminal – took a risk and got tackled. My point is, when your holding mid can physically dominate midfield like Can did, generally defend well AND score AND assist in the same game – that's quite a range for one player. If Gini or Hendo did this, I think this would be hailed as their most productive game of the season by far; somehow because Can has these kinds games far more often he gets less credit for them.

Not only an errant header - which can happen. But not only did he give away the ball in a very dangerous position for their goal by trying something he shouldn't - trying to dribble past his man but just a few moments later did it again, and again it almost led to a goal - that could easily have been 3-2 in just a 5 mins spell and led to a major wobble and nerves. He was nowhere near MotM which I saw a couple of people give him.

 

[mark1975]

I thought Milner was boss. Didn't put a foot wrong and shat out of nothing. Just wish we'd bought him when he left Leeds for Newcastle.

Yep, he's a brilliant all rounder. He looked a big leggy in the first half of the season, but he's really stepped up of late. He's just a hugely likeable, no nonsense player.

 

[Frogfish]

Just a word on Karius who has been quite impressive since he's returned to the team. I put 35% of the blame for their goal on him (65% on Can). Didn't anyone else notice his positioning ? He wasn't just covering his near post .... he was well outside it ! Had he been 1-2m to his right (leaving a metre to cover at his near post) then he could easily have got down to Antonio's shot. It was very poor positioning, I don't think I've ever seen a keeper actually beyond his near post. Just watch the replays from behind the goal.

 

[Frogfish]

And Matip deserves a little more recognition / praise for his passing into midfield. He often picks out our midfielders with powerful precision passes that create attacking opportunities when trying to break down teams with 11 behind the ball, very different to say VvD who can arrow those long cross-field diagonals or lobs over the defence. It's great to have two CBs who have that in their locker (Lovren's passes generally tend to be straight and mostly go long and gift back possession).

 

[Woland]

I didn't put any blame on Karius at all. Can fucked up, there was no-one in front of him, and it was a good finish. Off the ball and what you probs don't see on TV, he was titting around nearer the half way line than his box when we were attacking - like that City keeper. He must have been told to do this but I always think it's playing with fire. Someone can just nob one over him from seventy yards. Still much more impressed with him these last few games.

 

[manwithnoname]

I thought Milner was boss. Didn't put a foot wrong and shat out of nothing. Just wish we'd bought him when he left Leeds for Newcastle.

I've said this a few times too.

At that point he should have been worth 30m - the thought of us missing out on having Milner for 10 years or more is painful

He's so obviously a 'Liverpool player'

 

[Woland]

I've said this a few times too.

At that point he should have been worth 30m - the thought of us missing out on having Milner for 10 years or more is painful

He's so obviously a 'Liverpool player'

When he was leaving Leeds he made it very clear he wanted to join us and we ignored his come-and-get-me pleas... It does my fucking head in. Another reason the Houllier years will always annoy me.

 

[manwithnoname]

When he was leaving Leeds he made it very clear he wanted to join us and we ignored his come-and-get-me pleas... It does my fucking head in. Another reason the Houllier years will always annoy me.

I recall Souness making that infamous quote that 'you can't win games with a team full of James Milners', which is typically Souness, although there is a kernel of truth in there, even if it's maybe not what he meant; your team does need inspiration and skill and tricks and goals and pace and all that.

But It's been used as a stick to beat Milner with - he's boring, and workmanlike and lacks flair.

Souness would have been better served by saying that you'll never win trophies without at least ONE James Milner in your team.

As one of the best players and greatest captains Liverpool have ever had, he should know that better than most.

 

[Woland]

It's even more galling when you remember that he sold Leeds Fowler and Matteo. What the fuck was he thinking in either case?

 

[FoxForceFive]

I didn't put any blame on Karius at all. Can fucked up, there was no-one in front of him, and it was a good finish. Off the ball and what you probs don't see on TV, he was titting around nearer the half way line than his box when we were attacking - like that City keeper. He must have been told to do this but I always think it's playing with fire. Someone can just nob one over him from seventy yards. Still much more impressed with him these last few games.

It's symptomatic of Klopp's entire philosophy that though, he'd prefer a sweeper keeper playing almost as a default last cb, defenders playing as midfielders bombing on at times, & full backs who will play as wing forwards (not just wing backs) when we're in possession.

He basically tries to move the entire side into their half so they can't win it back or find space.

It's risky as fuck, but fuck me it makes us potent in attack. Actually, thinking about it its quite surprising that we don't get done by teams exploiting that ridiculous 'second phase of play' offside/onside rule more often.

He's proven he can & will occasionally shackle them more against some sides & in some situations, & I said in the match thread yesterday that after we scored everyone seemed to push up the pitch twenty yards or so, which was notable as Chamberlain went from playing in our own half to in their half.

 

[Woland]

Which is why that early momentum thing has been so important for us this season, and why when we've thrown a lead away it has often been down to bringing another defender on late in the game.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Which is why that early momentum thing has been so important for us this season, and why when we've thrown a lead away it has often been down to bringing another defender on late in the game.

I've noticed that as the season has gone on we seem to have improved the ability to switch from defending from the front (literally), to dropping off & not needing possession but steering their play to where we want them to be & defending on the back front with more comfort.

Against Everton this was quite noticeable as we continually encouraged them to shoot from wide areas when they had their good spells by congesting the centre of the pitch, & didn't look too uncomfortable not having possession all the time.

It's a cliché, but I do see this as a side close to greatness, the improvements are incremental but obvious even month to month. We've gone from taking points off the other 'big six' teams regularly to having the best results against the rest of the league (with the notable exception of city) whilst keeping good results against the top sides.

 

[SummerOnions]

Hahahahaha

 

[gkmacca]

Karius is playing with a lot of confidence...it's almost like the preseason when he joined. But it's important to see if he becomes a nervous wreck again when up against it... hopefully he can see out the rest of the season in this form or better.

A big, big test will be when he goes to OT. We've seen the likes of Friedel crack when they've played there. If Karius gets through that game calmly and with a good performance, then we can really look at him positively.

 

[Fabio]

A big, big test will be when he goes to OT. We've seen the likes of Friedel crack when they've played there. If Karius gets through that game calmly and with a good performance, then we can really look at him positively.

Very good point

I'm quietly confident in him for that game though

 

[darkstarexodus]

When he was leaving Leeds he made it very clear he wanted to join us and we ignored his come-and-get-me pleas... It does my fucking head in. Another reason the Houllier years will always annoy me.

We had other chances when he was sold by Villa and Newcastle as well. I was thrilled when we finally got him but what a missed opportunity overall.